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Old November 26, 2005, 03:45 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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.38 Special 158 +P SWLHP or 110 +P Corbon against Body Armor?

Which .38 +P round would be more ideal in knocking out somebody wearing body armor? Weight or velocity? Would 158 gr bullets knock out a guy in Body Armor faster than 110 gr Corbon?
Which is more effective. Because even though hitting somebody in Body Armor won't penetrate and kill them, it is still like me hitting you in the chest with a baseball bat as hard as I can.

(note: all this is assuming you are too far away to be sure you can plant one in his head)
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Old November 26, 2005, 03:51 PM   #2
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No one hit with conventional .38 ammo is going to be "Knocked Out" or even taken out of the fight unless they want to stop. They may admire the bruse later. There are hundreds of instances of people hit with .44 magnum ammo and recent sand box examples of troops hit with .308 and up ammo wearing body armor and continuing to function and fight back. The difference between 110 P+ and 158 gr. ammo from a handgun is insignificant.
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Old November 26, 2005, 05:40 PM   #3
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Do you remember what they taught you in high school science class...for every action ,there is an equel and opposite reaction"

the recoil of the .38 special would also have to be like a baseball bat hitting your hand as just as hard....the actual shove is the same on both ends
oh it will cause a stinging bruise(been described as a combo of light punch and a bee sting)it will hurt bad enought to **** the guy off really bad, and make him double his effort to "kill you back"

If your a good guy, you might even get a plaque like hangs on my wall.

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Old November 26, 2005, 05:41 PM   #4
Doug.38PR
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I thought the whole reason police departments (particularly the LAPD) went from .38 Special/9mm to .40 caliber is because it hits harder against body armor and will knock out someone easier. (considering that bank robbery shootout with those two guys who were covered from head to toe in the early 90s)
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Old November 26, 2005, 06:00 PM   #5
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The reason for the change was those depts feel that rounds like .40S&W the have an edge over .38 and 9mm in the ability to cause injury to a bad person over a wider range of circumstances.. It has nothing to do with Body armor. LAPD's solution to the body armor issue was to obtain rifles(M16's from a govt program,with the full auto capability removed)
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Old November 26, 2005, 06:34 PM   #6
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p99

Quote:
It has nothing to do with Body armor.
I agree with you, but I think armor is one in the "range of circumstances"...


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Old November 28, 2005, 04:29 PM   #7
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That circumstance dictates "head shot". Unless you want to carry a round that specifically defeats armor, which will be less than optimal for terminal effect in the 99% of your non-armor encounters.

Sorry, them's your choices.
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Old November 28, 2005, 06:10 PM   #8
Doug.38PR
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Quote:
That circumstance dictates "head shot". Unless you want to carry a round that specifically defeats armor, which will be less than optimal for terminal effect in the 99% of your non-armor encounters.

Sorry, them's your choices.
Well, 1) my senario assumes that you are too far away for a head shot. 2) I thought armor piercing rounds were "illegal" and "only allowed for police."
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Old November 28, 2005, 06:29 PM   #9
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Yes, they are. A CZ52 converted to one of the .22 wildcats might do the trick, but then it makes a little hole and kills the station-wagon full of nuns on the other side of 99% of your typical bad guys.

I think you're painting yourself into a corner, scenario-wise, and trying to find a compromise solution that's ultimately doomed to failure. No .38spl round is going to "knock out" someone wearing a vest. You either have to change your platform for that narrow application, or stick with probability: you won't be needing to defeat armored bad guys.
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Old November 28, 2005, 07:56 PM   #10
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Alas, the kind of ammo normally used by civilians for self-defense is not very effective against anyone wearing high-quality body armor, which is a good thing if it's a police officer taking the hit, not so good if it's the bad guy. To penetrate body armor reliably, you really need armor piercing rounds from a rifle like those used by the military, though there are perhaps a few high-velocity, small caliber pistol rounds which might work. Neither of the rounds you mention, Doug, would likely work worth a damn. Your only real chance then is to go for a head shot. Either of the rounds you mention will work quite effectively with that shot, one might argue.
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Old December 1, 2005, 11:43 AM   #11
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Armor piecring rounds are illegal for handguns, but not for rifles.
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Old December 1, 2005, 03:39 PM   #12
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Actually Delta if the ammo round is specifically designed to be armor piercing then its illegal in rifles as well in most states, not sure about Federal at this point.
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Old June 29, 2006, 10:52 AM   #13
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They would probably be both equally ineffective. Most body armor is actually better at handling HP's than FMJ's.
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Old June 29, 2006, 01:04 PM   #14
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What's up with ressurecting old doug sceniarios lately?

I have been kinda missing them. This is a prime example. Why does any good civilian want to penetrate body armor? In case the bad guy is wearing it? Well, yeah, that could happen. The BG could be targeting you specifically with an M60, too, but how likely is it? It's something that, fine, keep it in the back of your mind if you want too. Whatever man. If you think that someone with body armor is out to get you, the best thing to do is hit em' with a rifle (unless they have SAPI plates, then it's useless unless you're shooting APITs in .338 Lapula). If they have SAPI's, they are well enough outfitted that I would also be willing to bet that they're well trained enough that most people can only rely on God for much help in that department.

If you want to know how to contain someone wearing just a vest, you're best bet is to carry a 230 JHP .45 and shoot for slide lock. It won't kill em' (probably won't, anyway) but the blunt trauma will knock the fight out of them. Getting hit when you're wearing is not like a "bee sting", as someone put it. The blunt trauma is probably greater than a baseball bat to the chest. You sustain more blunt trauma from getting shot with a vest on than you would without a vest. The impact will be displaced over a larger area, and instead of nerves being severed by bullet penetration, nerves are left undamaged to report the pain. You hear sometimes where some people are shot in an engagement and don't know it untill after due to adrenaline. This is less likely with a vest, because all of the energy is transferred instantly instead of more slowly through a 10" wound channel. One round would probably not be enough, kinda like one baseball bat swing might not do the trick. 6-8 rounds, now you're cooking with gas. Again, probably won't kill them but they will lose interest in attacking real quick after about the 3rd "baseball bat" hit. You should be trying to evade to begin with in the first place. I'm sure this force will probably work wonders in aiding your evasion.

Bottom line... vest=hurts like hell at the time but less likely to die. Shoot a .45, go for slide lock, and run. Otherwise, don't worry about it because the chances of this is probably relative to the chances of winning the lottery. Don't worry about defeating body armor, 95% of the people that wear it are the good guys.

Last edited by 5whiskey; June 29, 2006 at 01:47 PM.
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Old June 29, 2006, 04:45 PM   #15
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What about the California bank robbers a few years back? Surely they were getting pegged left and right by the officer's pistols? They didn't seem to mind too much. Was it because they were wearing stronger armor (did they have IIIa or better?)?
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Old June 29, 2006, 05:16 PM   #16
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Bad Guys with Body Armour

There were two VERY public shootings last year involving criminals with body armour.

Tyler Texas:

Mark Wilson, as TX CCW holder, engaged a rampage shooter who had already killed his wife on the courthouse steps and was shooting others. Mr. Wilson hit the killer but was not aware of his body armour which stopped the round. They continued to exchange shots until Wilson was hit and then dispatched in cold blood.

Red Branch School:

School shooting on an Indian Reservation where the assailent killed his grandfather, a tribal police officer, took his gun and donned his vest before going to the school to continue his killings.

While not COMMON I think we have enterred the age where we need at least consider the possiblity of a criminal with body armor.

Since the original post said it was too far for a head shot how about this tactic.... get away!

There is also the completely valid, and thought by many to be the better tactic of aiming for the pelvic region. Concealable body armor generally does not protect this region. The stoppage rate for pelvic shots is extremely high and it is a simple biomechanical fact that if you break those bones he is falling down. Remove his mobility and get away. If pelvic shots worked for Jim Cirillo, and he was involved in more shootings than most of us by far, it should be good enough for me. It is also a larger target and is less likely to move suddenly like the head.
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Old June 29, 2006, 05:50 PM   #17
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1. officers were shooting at a distance (pistol rounds loose steam pretty quick) with 9mm. If they had been at a reasonable range they possibly could have landed a few headshots

2. officers probably didn't expose theirselves to take well aimed shots very long after they discovered that the assailents were shooting at them with rifles & FMJ ammo. Another reason to rule out headshots on the assailents.

3. Assailents had no where else, I mean no where, to go. They knew that, and they had already killed people so they didn't care much about going to jail. This is different than a guy jumping you for your money. That guy can flee. He gets pegged at point blank by 5 or 6 230 gr JHP from a .45 and he'll lose interest. Point being, a trapped man is many times more dangerous and determined than a man who has the option to flee.

4. One suspect was hit 29 times (hit as in the bullet penetrated). If the man had 29 bullets penetrate then he wasn't going to stop for anything, not to mention he had to be on every drug known to man. The other suspect was hit 10 times.


The bottom line is I'm not saying that a pistol round hitting body armor is going to stop a man in one shot. The moral of my post is that I don't think it's a threat we should spend alot of time on because the means to penetrate body armor exists either from a rifle or from illegal ammunition in a pistol. I've known Marines to take a 7.62x39 in the SAPI plate and keep trucking. There was also a 1stSgt that got shot 9 times when he went into a building to save 4 other Marines who were wounded. He kept going and killed 4 insurgents. That is also with level IV SAPI plates. I think, for what a normal assailent confrontation from the average ccw civilian, 5 rounds to soft body armor will make an attacker lose interest long enough for you to get away.
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Old June 29, 2006, 05:52 PM   #18
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+1 pelvic shot.
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Old June 29, 2006, 06:13 PM   #19
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I attended, well actually was told to attend, a Personal Security Defense school that was hosted by the West Berlin Polizie. Everthing was 124gr+p 9mm (m9's,ppks,mp5's). It was a 6 week school if I recall.
These guys stressed head and groin shots for this very reason. Your situational/tactical awarness should indicate whether armor is present or not.

That 158gr +p SWLHP is a proven performer. A real craphouse mover. I'd have to think running into armor is low percentage, and having 5 or 6 Chicago loads has probably won more than lost.
Does anyone keep stats on that kinda thing?
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Old June 29, 2006, 07:26 PM   #20
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those guys in the bank robbery w/ armor were indeed on drugs

i forget which one they were on, it was something i hadn't heard of before but needless to say it took away all pain.

those guys legs were shot to crap and they kept going.

I know several people were hit in that incident but i do not beleive anyone died.
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Old June 30, 2006, 07:18 PM   #21
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re body armor shots

knee cap shot followed by head shot of he doesn't give up
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Old July 4, 2006, 10:03 PM   #22
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Re: Tyler, Texas

Mark Wilson, the citizen who engaged the armored shooter at the Tyler, TX Courthouse was using a Colt. .45. Mr. Wilson made several center of mass hits on the shooter and it didn't faze him at all. The gunman walked up on Mr. Wilson as he was reloading and shot him to death.

I seriously doubt that several non-penetrating hits on body armor, regardless of caliber will cause an assailant to stop his attack. It may scare him off, but the bullet impacts will not physically make him stop.
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Old July 4, 2006, 11:22 PM   #23
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It may be time to pack around the 12 ga w/ #1 buck, or perhaps the CZ 52 maybe worth a look in 7.62x25.
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Old July 4, 2006, 11:37 PM   #24
5whiskey
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banditto posted this...

Quote:
those guys in the bank robbery w/ armor were indeed on drugs

i forget which one they were on, it was something i hadn't heard of before but needless to say it took away all pain.

those guys legs were shot to crap and they kept going.

I know several people were hit in that incident but i do not beleive anyone died.
Moral of the story... one more time... you can't carry a rifle that will penetrate body armor because, well, the american public would freak out if they saw you walk around the mall with an AR. Any pistol round designed to defeat body armor is illegal, and would not work half as well as JHP the 95% of the time the BG DOES NOT have body armor.

Now, exhibit A. Banditto's post was refering to the bank robbers who shot it out in hollywood. I think one of those guys was shot something like 29 times THAT PENETRATED. He still kept kicking. There are some people that refuse to go down, and I will be the first to say that a few hits to body armor will not always render everyone physically unable to go on. There are some shootings in which BG without armor is hit multiple times and is still physically able to go on. My argument is that theres no need for anyone here to try and obtain the means to penetrate body armor because it is ILLEGAL.

With the only option left being to carry as you normally would in the first place. Now we have gotten a few good nuggets of wisdom out of this thread, least I think, for I think that a groin shot or 5 would be a pretty good idea if you hit COM several times and the BG still keeps coming. Head shot is also a viable option if you're close enough to be able to hit that target under duress.

Just my .02
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Old July 5, 2006, 12:06 AM   #25
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Another thing to think about is wether or not they are wearing trauma plates in the vest. If they have trauma plates in then yes, they will be able to take as many .45 rounds as you can throw at them. Trauma plates themselves aren't bulletproof, but they do spread the impact of the bullet over the whole area of the plate. I'm sure we all know that 15 pounds displaced over an area of, say, 10"x12" then it doesn't hurt. That same 15 pounds concentrated on area of, say, 1/8"x1/8" then it hurts something fierce. It's the whole pounds per square inch theory that I'm sure everyone understands. Anyhoo, trauma plates spread the impact of the projectile evenly over the entire area of the plate. They're usually 10"x12" or so. Without the trauma plates all of the energy is concentrated in an area much much smaller.

I'll never refuse to admit when I'm wrong ... forgot about trauma plates. A BG could very well wear body armor with them and take all the hits from a handgun you wanted to fire and still keep trucking.
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