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Old November 15, 2005, 04:06 PM   #1
brgr
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Home invader shot and killed in Kentucky but charges possibly filled

This just happened a few days ago near were I live.

A man wakes up in the late evening early morning to sounds in his house, he goes to investigate and sees a man at the bottom of his stairs, he returns to his bedroom grabs his pistol and tells his wife to call 911. He returns to the stairs and the man is coming up towards him, he tells him to leave but he doesn't and keeps coming, the home owner shoots 2 shots and kills the intruder. At first they say that no charges will be brought against the home owner but know they are saying that they are looking into it to see if he can or should be charged. This is complete Bull****. I've been thinking of getting a CCW permit since from what I have read about KY. law. It is pretty much cut and dry (meaning that there doesn't seem to be any loop holes in the law or any weird wording that could be taken in different meanings), but from what I am hearing and reading about this home invasion I am having second thoughts.

I mean the intruder was in the guys home and they are looking into what charges they can charge him with.

What if I had a CCW permit and something like this happened out on the street. A guy comes toward me or my family I ask him to leave or I try to leave but he just keeps coming according to the law I have the right to protect myself and family.

If anyone else here is from KY. and you have a CCW permit let me know if you have had any problems.
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Old November 15, 2005, 04:49 PM   #2
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Well that's not a lot of information to go on, but remember the police will never issue a statement to the tune of "good thing he shot that guy, saved us the trouble". It will always be under investigation or to be determined, because:
1. They don't want to encourage shooting everybody who enters your house
2. There are cases where self defense is claimed but it was no where near as clear cut as presented.
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Old November 15, 2005, 05:15 PM   #3
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I know what your getting at brgr, but as griz stated there isn't much info to go on (for us), besides your account of something you read or saw/heard on a TV/radio news broadcast. Can you post a link or something so we can read the whole story (or at least what the media is telling)?

Maybe the local law enforcement's investigation has turned up some evidence, which wasn't initially discernable. This new evidence may justify possible charges. I don't know what that evidence could be, but until I know the whole story I can't jump on your bandwagon - sorry.

Don't let this keep you from getting your CCW permit. As the cliche goes, it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
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Old November 15, 2005, 05:27 PM   #4
sendec
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There is ALWAYS more than meets the eye. The prosecutor/police arent gonna file charges unless they think they'll prevail in court..
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Old November 15, 2005, 05:31 PM   #5
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Just where in Ky did this occur?

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Old November 15, 2005, 05:32 PM   #6
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GOOD FOR HIM!!!!!
Sends a wonderful message to every BG out there.
brgr,
Get that carry permit man!!!
If nothing else, it shows you took the time to do it the right way should the SHTF at anytime.
Somebody enters my home, I can't think of too many circumstances where he/she/they won't be, after an initial warning, severely sorry for their folly!
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Old November 15, 2005, 05:43 PM   #7
ron73644
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I have a 12 gauge with short barrel, loaded with buckshot for home defense, but when I think about the way the law is, I'm tempted to put that up and get a BB gun for home defense, take my chances, and hope I don't hurt him too much.
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Old November 15, 2005, 06:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
I have a 12 gauge with short barrel, loaded with buckshot for home defense, but when I think about the way the law is, I'm tempted to put that up and get a BB gun for home defense, take my chances, and hope I don't hurt him too much.
I know you're not actually thinking about this seriously, but if you ever DID think for a minute about doing that, always remember that saying...

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

I'm sure just about everyone does not take lightly the possible circumstance of firing on someone in self-defense, but you must do what needs to be done in order to ensure that YOU are the one who gets to wake up the next morning. You must always look out for #1...
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Old November 15, 2005, 07:03 PM   #9
DannyB KY
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Not enough info there. Personally, I think the homeowner did the right thing. But that's based on the limited details of the story.

As was said, the police dept won't say " Thank you for saving us the trouble."

And maybe the prosecutor is the brother of the homeowners ex-wife!

I don't have my CCW permit for KY yet, will probably wait until the new year. The smallest handgun I have is a 6 inch model 27 Smith!
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Old November 15, 2005, 08:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendec
There is ALWAYS more than meets the eye. The prosecutor/police arent gonna file charges unless they think they'll prevail in court.

What a silly statement. "Always"?


That means there is NEVER a clear-cut case of "intruder comes into home, means harm, is shot by homeowner in justifiable self-defense"? Give me a break.


When we took SAT prep classes, they told us to be very wary of statements that employ "always" and "never." Usually those are the false statements, and to agree with them was to get the answer wrong.


See above.


-blackmind
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Old November 15, 2005, 08:21 PM   #11
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When a life is taken in an instance like this, when everyone and anyone in the community can see themselves as a potential homeowner/victim, rumors run roughshod over reason. Every cop, hairdresser, gun store commando, preacher, ditch digger, and school teacher is suddenly an expert on the legal process. If the DA wears a red tie it's a sign he's going to prosecute. If the shooter fails to show up at work it's a sign they are in jail. Any coincidence is a sign that something is going to happen.

The fact is, charges will not be filed until they are filed. Even then, they may not succeed. The DA may file because he thinks he can win, because of political pressure, or because he wants to look tough on crime for an upcoming election. Yes....there is a lot more than meets the eye in many of these cases.

Hopefully the survivor of this shooting has shut up, lawyered up, and prepared for a long haul through the various courts.
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Old November 15, 2005, 08:40 PM   #12
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There IS always more than meets the eye when you get your information via the news or as in this case, via 2nd or 3rd hand on the interent.

Charges maybe filed on the homeowner? brgr assumes that the story told by the homeowner is accurate. There has been more than one falsely reported case of a supposed home intrusion that turns out to be the homeowner being in conflict with a person invited into the home, not an intruder. For all we know, the dead guy could be the homeowner's drug supplier that he decided to rip off. Maybe the 'intruder' was the wife's lover that she invited into the home, but was later surprised by her husband's return?

Even if it turns out to be a valid home intrusion defense shooting, the specifics may not come out until after the homeowner is charges or until court. That is callded "due process."
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Old November 15, 2005, 11:18 PM   #13
aspen1964
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..unless there is some tangible circumstance..there is NEVER a justification of breaking into a house..if the homeowner indeed told the stranger to stop and he did not nor give an oral reponse to his actions..the homeowner did exactly the right thing...drill him in his tracks...if that is all there truly is to the story..that should be the end of the matter...
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Old November 15, 2005, 11:38 PM   #14
threefivesevenmag
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ky ccw.

I have my CCW for Kentucky.

You don't need a CCW permit to defend family and yourself while at home.

I will say this...if you are out with your family and someone is just "approaching" you, I don't think you'd be justified in drawing a handgun and firing.

I know there are so many grey areas when it comes to self defense shooting but you have to be in total fear of loss of life, kidnapping, assault, or rape to consider employing lethal force.

My advice would be to get your permit and know the laws. Learn to avoid situations that might bring trouble. Have plans in your head for different scenarios. Have plans for nonlethal de-escalation. And if all else fails and you are truly in danger, then lethal force can be employed.

Take the course, take it seriously, practice when you can, and stay cool headed until that is 100% not an option.
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Old November 16, 2005, 12:05 AM   #15
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I bet it was his wife's lover and he planned to kill him all along!
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Old November 16, 2005, 12:32 AM   #16
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I have to go with DasBoot on this one. They get one warning to get the !#$%!& out of my house and then it's BANG!! BANG!!, no more bad guy. If I don't recognize them/it and they/it fail to heed the warning, then they deserve what they get.

As far as the prosecution/charges go: I wonder what the prosecutor/LEO's would do if in the same situation? Would they warn and then pull the trigger or would they wave the gun around and say get out or I will shoot you until they got killed first? Would they be justified and no charges filed because they have a badge or work in the legal system?

I don't mean to upset anyone. I do also go with the fact that there is not enough info for us to go on. I'm just saying that it seems more and more that when somebody does defend themselves gets in trouble for it. In my high school if you got into a fight (you were the one being attacked first, with the the other person being the aggressor) and did nothing and just tried to walk away, you got rewarded with the same amount of punishment that the aggressor did. However, if you did fight back and defend yourself, whether you won or lost, you got in more trouble and a stiffer punishment than the aggressor did.

That's really messed up. My high school sucked.
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Old November 16, 2005, 12:41 AM   #17
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I worked a similar incident here in a very affluent area just outside Birmingham, AL.
BG cut all phone lines, then broke in and held residents at gunpoint. He ransacked the bedroom, and then had the wife tie up the husband (we'll call this mistake #1). He then left the husband and took the wife upstairs to plunder and get whatever he wanted to steal, and at one point stated "what did I do with my gun?" (we'll call this mistake #2) After getting all of what he carry in his duffel bag, back down stairs they went, where husband was waiting. He let the wife get clear of the stairs and opened up on BG as he made the turn into the living room. Husband put four of five shots from Ruger 9mm in BG's upper torso, the 5th missing only because BG fell. BG was DRT before we ever arrived on scene.
The homeowner was congratulated on a job well done by all of us on scene, and was cleared of any wrongdoing within a couple of days. I believe he got his gun back the next buisness day after the incident.
And on a side note, BG's getaway driver/ wife, was charged with murder since someone was killed in the commission of a crime she was involved in.
2 less scumbags to worry about.
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Old November 16, 2005, 12:54 AM   #18
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It's the job of the police to look into things and make sure charges shouldn't be filed. It's what police do. It doesn't mean they want to crucify him and are looking for ANYTHING to nail the guy with. It just means you have police there that believe in doing there job and being thorough. I don't see one thing wrong with that, especially if the shooting was on the up and up. When you become a police officer one of the things you are taught is to remain objective when doing your job. Not take sides.
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Old November 16, 2005, 01:07 AM   #19
ron73644
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In an IDEAL world, but not the (?)detectives(?) in Elk City, Oklahoma. I know that for a fact. When it happens to someone in your family, you will change. I used to think that way and I was a big police supporter. We went through Hell, and their laziness and carelessness, with no one to answer to nearly ruined a family member's life, and cost our family thousands of dollars. The Asst. D.A.'s are rotten, too.
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Old November 16, 2005, 01:14 AM   #20
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Sorry to hear that. Plenty of decent cops elsewhere though. Hell, some actually get into the profession to do police work. Go figure .
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Old November 16, 2005, 01:24 AM   #21
Hayley
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*

Is this what you're talking about?: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky...e/13149167.htm

This seems pretty clear-cut and justifiable. Subsequent investigation must have changed the picture somewhat if charges are forthcoming. Shooting an intruder ascending the stairs in the middle of the night would not be a crime in Kentucky. There is no obligation here to retreat outside the house, let alone inside it.
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Old November 16, 2005, 01:58 AM   #22
BillCA
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  • Burglary of an occupied dwelling is not the act of a rational mind.
  • Failing to leave via an unobstructed exit when confronted by an armed homeowner is not rational either.
  • Failing to heed commands while at gunpoint indicates a disregard for personal danger.
  • Trying to argue the homeowner out of shooting (instead of fleeing) is a danger signal.
  • Agressive words to the homeowner in any manner indicates hostility.
  • Approaching an armed homeowner while at gunpoint shows a lack of fear (or brains).

Thus...
An irrational man in my home, refusing to leave, possibly argumentative and hostile, displaying a disregard for his own personal safety and approaching an armed person without obvious fear of the firearm is an immediate and dangerous threat to myself and my family.

Nothing in the law that I've read says I need believe the words of an irrational person comitting a felony in my presence (1st degree burglary). And even most states that require a "retreat" option include a phrase that says "safely retreat" -- which is not an option if I am between him and my children's bedrooms.

More over, the person committing said felony is within close proximity of my person and undeterred by the threat of lethal force. If I cannot dissuade him with the threat of being killed, nothing I can say is likely to save myself or my family.

Thus I am left with only one, viable and logical option.
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Old November 16, 2005, 07:18 AM   #23
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I'm from Kentucky and I still don't understand our laws governing self-defense. The law clearly states that if your life is in danger you may use deadly force to protect yourself. But in every case I hear about in Kentucky the homeowner is arrested and has to go before the grand jury and spend thousands of dollars in attorney fees just to get out of it.
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Old November 16, 2005, 07:27 AM   #24
XavierBreath
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From the above article:
Quote:
No charges have been filed in the case. State police are investigating.
No charges were filed. Anytime there is a death from unnatural causes, there is an investigation by State Police to determine no crime was committed. That is their job. It is part of the process. It doesn't mean a thing. Refer to post 11.

Charges Unlikely Against Hall Of Fame Hunter Who Shot Alleged Intruder
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Old November 16, 2005, 02:07 PM   #25
arnie08515
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Intruder

BGRG

Some jurisdictions are required to look into any homocide for whatever reason, even a negligent homocide. it doesn't mean the homeowner is being charged with anything. That jurisdiction must examine all the evidence. For example, was the intruder someone who regularly visited that home and was the intruder known to someone in that home other than the actual shooter. Did he have a right to be there at that time. Only then if the prosecutor calls for a grand jury and if it goes to a grand jury does the homeowner have anything to worry about.

From the facts you described here the homeowner has little to worry about. This is the classic instance of self - defense. HO issued a warning, the killing ocurred in the home and the homeowner shot in self - defense. Keep us informed of what happens.

I live in New Jersey. Two weeks ago a homeowner came home, opened his door to find two burglars in his apartment. HO pick up a knife and stabs one BG in the leg as BG is exiting through a window. BG bleeds to death. NO TEARS HERE. The Monmouth County prosecutor had an obligation to investigate claiming the BG was exiting the apartment.
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