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Old November 14, 2005, 08:01 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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Question to Texas CHL instructors

I've been ask by several people at church that know I have a CHL:

"why don't you have your gun on at church! What is some islamic terrorist runs in here. we need you to help us out man! The law says you can carry in church unless it has a 30.06 sign saying you can't. That's what the law says, man. I read it myself."

I know what they are talking about. HOWEVER, I have been told by others that you can't carry unless you have written permission to carry. In other words, one side says you can carry unless they say you can't another side says you can't carry unless they say you can.

Now, I am not going to carry in church on sunday morning during services just out of respect to the Lord leaving concerns and work outside as a time of observing of his holiness. We are there to worship God. Won't carry in church unless prudence deems it necessary. (Like if the day comes when there is a HIGH probability of a terrorist or some nut barging in and mowing a bunch of people down or whatever. The kind of things you see in 3rd world countries) Other than that reason, I will not carry in church on Sunday.

That being said however there are other days of hte week and times that are not during worship services that I go to the church campus and get tired of having to leave the gun in the car and slip it back on when i go out....especially if I have friends coming back to the car with me to go somewhere and don't want them seeing me put my weapon back on

Anyway, as far as the law goes. I can see conflicting statements in different portions of the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws and Selected Statures booklet 2001-2002 that I was given a year ago.

The language is as follows:

On page 71: "6.45 PLACES PROHIBITED: CLASS A MISDEMEANOR VIOLATIONS: A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act in the following places:.....(5) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other place of religious worship. No posting is required by the Act. Violation is a Class A misdemeanor under Texas Penal Code 46.035. This subsection shall not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Texas Penal Code 30.06"

On Page 33: "46.035 UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER:......(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue or other established place of religious worship."

Finally Page 91: "Q: Where can I not take my gun?
A: ....You may not carry handguns in hospitals or nursing homes, amusement parks, places of worship or at government meetings if signs are posted prohibiting them..."

Well, this would seeeeeem to indicate that I can. But the page 71 quote says "no posting is required by the Act" but later says violations shall not apply unless I am given noteice by 30.06 posting. Do you need posting or not?
Page 33 seems to say I CAN NOT. But then 71, as stated above, seems to indicate that I do but don't need posting
Page 91 seems to say I CAN unless posted otherwise.

My CHL instructor told me I CAN'T unless I have permission of the church. (he suggested written permission)

So what do y'all say?
Thanks
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Old November 14, 2005, 10:22 PM   #2
JohnKSa
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Don't know when you took your CHL class, but the law has changed fairly recently.

You can carry in church unless there is a legal 30-06 sign. Your read on the law is correct, what your CHL instructor told you is not.

Part of the confusion is arising from the fact that you're reading a summarized version of the law. The "no posting" comment is not in the law. And the exemption which states that church carry must be restricted by a 30-06 sign is in a later subsection and refers to only SOME of the restricted sites in that section.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statu....htm#46.035.00

There is nothing in the Bible that even hints that carry in church is offensive or disrespectful, or anything else negative. If you FEEL that it is disrespectful, that's one thing, but you should understand that you're operating PURELY on the basis of your conviction without any Biblical backing that I'm aware of.
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Old November 14, 2005, 10:56 PM   #3
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Edited to delete double post.
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Old November 14, 2005, 10:57 PM   #4
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Churches came off original "prohibited list" on Sept. 1, 1997. Most applicable verbiage is last paragraph (an amendment) of 46.035.

Ever hear of a little town in Tejas named Honey Grove? It's an hour or two northeast of DFW. I've been out of state/out of touch for about two weeks, but just before I left, there was a news blurb about a shooting at church there on Sunday night that resulted in at least 4 dead ...

' Got into disagrement with old church friend back after law changed. He said sumthin to the effect of "It just turns my stomach to think some guy next to me in CHURCH has a gun in his pants." (Same guy - with no CHL- always carried .357 in door pocket of pickup truck ...) I responded something to the effect of "It turns MY stomach to think I might one day NEED to have a gun in church and NOT have one with me."

Personal choice. But, unless "effective notice" given, OK since 9-1-97. And, of all my CHL renwal students since, only 2 have mentioned seeing 30.06 signage at one.

And heck, I've got a 30-ish nephew who is an assistant pastor. His pastor has suggested that he get the training/license and CARRY in their church.
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Old November 14, 2005, 11:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Churches came off original "prohibited list" on Sept. 1, 1997.
Hooo Boy... Guess my idea of "fairly recently" needs some adjustment!
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Old November 15, 2005, 01:00 AM   #6
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I was with you, JohnKSa. I thought churches came off after 2001. Also, no Biblical backing saying one should or can carry in church or should not or cannot carry in church. However, it could be interpreted that anytime Jesus preached to those who would listen, many who were part of various armies and armed, would constitute an OK for carrying in church since Jesus was essentially holding church services. Of course, that is something of a stretch justification.

Asked by Doug's friends...
Quote:
"why don't you have your gun on at church! What is some islamic terrorist runs in here. we need you to help us out man! The law says you can carry in church unless it has a 30.06 sign saying you can't. That's what the law says, man. I read it myself."
You know Doug, you might want to consider changing churches or only hang out with those folks in the church like-minded with you. Your fellow church goers apparently have a fear of being attacked by Islamic terrorists, but aren't going to be bothered with getting training, getting a CHL, defending themselves or anyone else. From the sounds of it, they aren't going to be aiding you either. They just want to sit back and not worry about things because they will be able to relax knowing you will fight to protect them.

Chances are, Doug, that your fellow church members fear of being attacked by Islamic terrorists is not terribly justified compared to more common threats here in the US. If you do a few Google searches on key terms such as church and murder, attack, burn, bomb, domestic dispute, shooting, etc., most dangerous threats are usually by a person or persons who have a particlar problem with the church itself or members of the congregation. The only terroristic attacks on US churches that I know about are those burning and bombing events between the 1950s and 1990s, many of which were the product of domestic terrorism such as by the KKK. That isn't to say that the church won't be attacked by Islamic terrorists, only that such a possibility hasn't happened yet here in the US, but many other types have happened and continue to happen.

As for folks being offended by carrying in church, they should have no reason to be offended if you do a proper job of keeping your gun concealed. They won't be offended by that which they have no knowledge.
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Old November 15, 2005, 10:14 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
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So I suppose it is better to leave the gun in the car while you go to church. Then you can mess with reholstering it with a car full of Mom and kids. Of course, you could leave it home and then on the way to and fro you are disarmed. If you go to eat after or before you are disarmed.

When angels fly air cover over your car, then don't carry in church.
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Old November 15, 2005, 12:04 PM   #8
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The church exclusion in the original law miffed quite a few preachers who were getting licensed primary to protect their congregations. they had a lot to do with the amendment that said the church prohibition "was not a violation unless effective warning had been given(sic)" The legislature explained it as a private property issue and applied the same thing to nursing homes, and hospitals as well as some things that are hard to recognize as prohibited zones - like government meetings and amusement parks.
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Old November 15, 2005, 08:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
So I suppose it is better to leave the gun in the car while you go to church.
Only if your church is of the drive-in variety.
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Old November 16, 2005, 10:44 AM   #10
Glenn E. Meyer
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Or the drive - by variety. Ouch.
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Old November 16, 2005, 11:37 AM   #11
Doug.38PR
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Quote:
You know Doug, you might want to consider changing churches or only hang out with those folks in the church like-minded with you. Your fellow church goers apparently have a fear of being attacked by Islamic terrorists, but aren't going to be bothered with getting training, getting a CHL, defending themselves or anyone else. From the sounds of it, they aren't going to be aiding you either. They just want to sit back and not worry about things because they will be able to relax knowing you will fight to protect them.

Chances are, Doug, that your fellow church members fear of being attacked by Islamic terrorists is not terribly justified compared to more common threats here in the US. If you do a few Google searches on key terms such as church and murder, attack, burn, bomb, domestic dispute, shooting, etc., most dangerous threats are usually by a person or persons who have a particlar problem with the church itself or members of the congregation. The only terroristic attacks on US churches that I know about are those burning and bombing events between the 1950s and 1990s, many of which were the product of domestic terrorism such as by the KKK. That isn't to say that the church won't be attacked by Islamic terrorists, only that such a possibility hasn't happened yet here in the US, but many other types have happened and continue to happen.

As for folks being offended by carrying in church, they should have no reason to be offended if you do a proper job of keeping your gun concealed. They won't be offended by that which they have no knowledge.
LOL, I do see your point. Good point. However, the people who say this aren't dead serious about me carrying in church for their protection. They offer it is a good idea. (with a "hey that's cool" attitude) But you do pose the obvious question "if it is such a good idea, why don't you do it."
In a way this illustrates my reasons for being against the whole concept have having to have a CHL. Personally, I think everyone has a right to bare arms (adults that is), it is the basic right to self defense and is not a something the state should give or take a way from you. What we have now with CHL creates, in a way and in some degree or another, this psychology among people and even some CHLers that they are something special, kind of an elite mentality of a sort. I think if everyone were allowed to excercise the right of carry (openly if desired) all this fear (unwarrented fear) of guns would die out and subjects, such as the ones we are discussing, wouldn't be necessary. Cars can be dangerous if used wrongly (even more dangerous than a gun as I see it), but we take for granted that most people will use them properly and drive together with others on streets and highways every day without giving it a second thought. While we do have drivers licenses, it is little more than a tax on me. I didn't learn how to drive from the state, I learned from my mother and father. The state class didn't teach me how to shoot or how to handle a gun, I learned from my dad.
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Old November 18, 2005, 12:40 AM   #12
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Church Carry

There are some large churches in Texas that are possible terrorist targets. Any time you get 2000-20,000 people in one building, it poses a target to terrorists, just like a sports arena. Plus, it has the religious advantage of killing "infadels."

But, as Double Naught Spy said, there is a far greater risk of being shot by a crazed church member than by an international terrorist. There have been several church shootings over the years. I knew several of the people involved in the Wedgewood Baptist Church shooting back in 1999 (including friends with the Youth Minister). There have been several ministers shot over the years by people, many of whom were members of the church. And as the meth craze gets worse, more and more people will assume that churches are a great place for a handout, either voluntary or involuntary. And the latest fear among churches is the child abduction/sexual assault risk. Most churches now run a background check on all employees and volunteers who work with teenagers on down. Parents who do not have custody of their children have tried to pick children up from church, camps, and other church-related activities. And a church can be one of the most dangerous places for children to be preyed upon by sexual predators. I was on staff of a metropolitan church that had to get a restraining order on a guy who was following boys into the Men's Bathroom.

I see no reason why it would not be a good thing to have church members carry to church. Each individual should make sure that his or her worship is not hindered in any way and that carrying will not be a distraction, either for the one carrying or anyone else. As a pastor, I am quite glad that one of my members often carries to church! As the father of three young children, I want church to be a safe place for them to worship God.

Just my humble $.02 worth.

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Old November 18, 2005, 03:54 PM   #13
Doug.38PR
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Here is an additional question to this post:

What if the church you go to also has it's own private school on campus. Can you carry at church then? Can you carry while school hours are not in session or what?
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Old November 18, 2005, 09:55 PM   #14
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thoughts on carrying in church

Islamic terrorists are not actually high on my worry list, at church or otherwise. They have a nasty tendency to do things the cowardly way... sneaking around with explosives and blowing people up. However, disgruntled current or former members or relatives of members are another thing altogether. It is sadly not unheard of here in Texas for loonies who are mad at the preacher or at the treasurer or someone to bring their gun and dispatch any number of people at the church, either during worship services or at other times. THAT is enough of a threat to carry unless a 30.06 sign is posted.

My CHL instructor also taught us that we were not allowed to carry, but it is in fact true that we are. His comment was "if you go to a church where you need a gun, you need to find another church". Well, if there is a church that is absolutely immune to craziness, I've yet to hear of it (including my own!)

That said, I can also see that there are those who do not wish to carry and certainly would not feel it appropriate in church, and that's fine. God forbid some loony ex-member goes berserk, I would deal with it and then accept the penance that would follow.

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Old December 14, 2005, 07:39 AM   #15
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I thought concealed carry meant concealed carry. You shouldn't be telling anyone you carry. It just causes problems and distracts people.
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Old December 14, 2005, 11:04 AM   #16
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Springmom - your CHL instructor seems to have told you some strange things, I gather from your posts.
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