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Old November 8, 2005, 01:25 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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Best kind of shotgun for a fight

I was watching this history channel the other day and they were talking about all sorts of guns for LEOs and for defense. A policeman told the HC camera that the most intimidating sound to a criminal is the **CHUCK! CHICK!** of a shotgun pump. A former policeman at the gunrange I frequently shoot at said something similar when I was looking at the ranges shotguns for sale.
However...as true as that may be...wouldn't the better choice of shotgun be a semi automatic rather than a pump?
You can fire rounds quicker with a semi auto. With a semi auto you just pull the trigger again, and again, and again taking aim (or with a shotgun just pointing in the general direction of the bad guys).
With a pump you have to 1) put your index finger on the pump release by the trigger, 2) pump the gun, 3) put your index finger back in the trigger guard, 4) and finally fire.

Am I missing something. I'll grant you I've never fired a pump shotgun with live rounds, only dryfired in the store.

Pump shotguns look cool and feel cool, but that's about it to me. For defense, it looks like they are my only option (I don't usually see a whole lot of short barreled semi auto shotguns in stores). Can someone convince me otherwise?
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Old November 8, 2005, 01:43 PM   #2
Zachary Vonler
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I prefer a pump action shotgun because I think that, like a revolver, there a fewer things that can go wrong when shooting it. In handguns, there is the additional concern of capacity, so I prefer semiautos, but pump shotguns have the same capacity as a semi-auto.

I had a Benelli for a while, and it definitely could shoot quickly, but it also failed to cycle a few times (especially after adding a side saddle). And really, if the problem you're faced with requires multiple 12 gauge shots faster than you can cycle a pump action, you're probably assed out already.
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Old November 8, 2005, 01:49 PM   #3
progunner1957
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Don't overlook the Remington 870

I own a Remington 870 Express with an 18" slug barrel - 4+1 rounds of 12ga. juju. I got it at Wal-Mart for under $250 a couple of years ago. That's a WHOLE lotta hurtin' for not much money!! Another plus for the pump action is its feed/eject reliability.

My "dream" shotgun is the Benelli M4 auto with magazine extension, tritium sights and pistol grip. I can't see how it could get any better than that for a home defense shotgun. I have fired a friend's Benelli, and the recoil is 1/2 that of my 870.

The Remington 870 will do a great job of HD; it has been the standard for decades. The Remington 1100 auto is also a great choice, with a short slug barrel. The Benelli, configured for tactical use (as above) wins hands down, though - at around $900 American.

The 12ga. is pretty much the last word in home defense - it is light years ahead of any handgun in terms of "stopping power." It's almost like shooting a bad guy with a cannon! And facing that 3/4" bore may be all that is needed for the BGs to start seeing things your way.
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Old November 8, 2005, 01:49 PM   #4
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Pump actions also cycle less-lethal rounds beautifully, whereas semiautos don't. This makes pump actions better for police.
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Old November 8, 2005, 02:37 PM   #5
Doug.38PR
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Pump actions also cycle less-lethal rounds beautifully, whereas semiautos don't. This makes pump actions better for police.
why would police, or anybody for that matter, want "less" lethal rounds?
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Old November 8, 2005, 02:39 PM   #6
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Intrestingly enough (for those who have never shot one, at least), I've found that there's no real difference in effective rate of fire between a semi-auto shotgun and a pump shotgun, and I've done an awful lot of bird hunting with them, I speak from experience. The slide just doesn't take that much time to work. For that matter, when you work the slide while recovering from recoil, you'll find that by the time you have brought the gun back into sight you have already cycled the action. You just sorta get into a "rocking motion". Net rate of fire difference is negligable, in other words. With that in mind, I find that the pump is somewhat more reliable, less prone to malfunctions, and as such that is what I'd suggest. I'm used to using Remington 870's, that is what I know best, but I'm also aware that there's other good models on the market.
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Old November 8, 2005, 02:43 PM   #7
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"why would police, or anybody for that matter, want "less" lethal rounds?"

I think that what he's getting at is the reduced power SD loads. Not so much less lethal as much as less recoil. With less "oomph", there's less there for the autoloader to tap into to work the action, but still plenty enough to get the SD job done.

OTOH, if less lethal is what you really want, there's plenty enough of that around, common as fleas on a proverbial dog. Like, for instance, light trap/skeet loads -- those are quite a bit less lethal, and less liable to shoot through walls. Some people actually want that. Not only that, but those loads will work in an autoloader just fine. Personally, I'd rather use buckshot and get the job done right.
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Old November 8, 2005, 02:49 PM   #8
Dragun
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doug, once you pull the trigger and the shotgun has fired, the pump is released without having to hit the pump release. so, no moving finger back and forth to shoot. pumps also give full power to the shot not like the semi-auto which uses some of the gas to cycle the gun and chamber another round. pumps are also inherently more reliable. i'm thinking you might have never shot a pump shotgun before. they are almost as fast as a semi-auto depending who's shooting them.
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Old November 8, 2005, 02:49 PM   #9
C Philip
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Re: Less Lethal

The term "less lethal" applies to rounds such as rubber buck shot, rubber batons, sand bag/bean bag rounds, etc. These are generally used in riot control, and are made so that death is not likely to result from being hit with it. It has nothing to do with reduced powed SD loads or any kind of bird shot. http://www.ammoman.com has some less than lethal 12ga rounds for sale, you can check them out. Rather expensive.
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Old November 8, 2005, 02:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
With a pump you have to 1) put your index finger on the pump release by the trigger, 2) pump the gun, 3) put your index finger back in the trigger guard, 4) and finally fire......Am I missing something
Yep. On a pump, the slide action releases once you pull the trigger. You only have to release the slide with the slide release to work it the first time IF the trigger has not been pulled. On a Mossberg, you can even release the action with the third finger, keeping your trigger finger in place if you like.
As has been stated, the pump shotgun will fully cycle the action regardless of the round you are firing, as long as you do not short stroke it.
The shucking of the action is an attention getter. With a normal but angry/misguided person, it should do the trick. With hardened criminals it may not. It will get their attention though. Just like drawing your handgun, do not shuck the action on a pump shotgun unless you intend to use it.
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Old November 8, 2005, 03:03 PM   #11
USP45usp
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, I just like the sound of a pump
Quote:
**CHUCK! CHICK!**
I know, I'm strange

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Old November 8, 2005, 03:11 PM   #12
Dre_sa
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i think you should look at the purpose of the shotgun. for SD id go with a pump because of the superior reliablity, cant afford to have your weapon jam on you when you need it most. however if you just wanted a shotgun for some fun id pick a semi, because the recoil is not as punishing and would therefore be more fun to shoot regularly and lots.
you can use eithe for either purpose of course, just keep your semi super-clean if you are going to use it for SD.
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Old November 8, 2005, 03:14 PM   #13
OBIWAN
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where can I get "more lethal" rounds?

I think the shotgun has all but outlived its' usefulness for most defensive situations.(IMHO)

But I really do prefer a good pump gun with 13" or less LOP
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Old November 8, 2005, 03:33 PM   #14
Doug.38PR
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Quote:
I just like the sound of a pump
"EAT LEAD SLACKERS!!"

I'll sick Mr. Strickland on them BGs

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Old November 8, 2005, 03:59 PM   #15
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As far as a semi-auto being faster than a pump: totally not true. I have a Remington 11-87 and my buddy has an 870. He can fire just as fast or faster than me.
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Old November 8, 2005, 04:32 PM   #16
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Not the racking thread again. The most intimidating sound is Chucky, Chucky - where is that damn living evil doll again!!

The real variance is knowing how to handle the weapon. Any one of quality will probably get you through most situations.
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Old November 8, 2005, 04:45 PM   #17
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For a fight? Nothing else? One word..... Streetsweeper
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Old November 8, 2005, 05:07 PM   #18
chevyguy
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shot guns

I have to go with the pump.

I have seen to many semi autoas that were finicky about what type of ammo they will cycle. Also you only have to push the litle lever in to get the first round in the chamber. Phen its pump and squeeze as fast as you can.


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Old November 8, 2005, 06:01 PM   #19
3o3brit
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I keep an auto as my home defence gun, It is a Ted Williams 300 (same as Win 1400) I used it as a hunting gun since I was a kid.
100% reliable. 100's and 100's of shells, heavy, light no diffrence.
When I retired it from hunting, I cut back the brl. to 18 inches and it still patterns OO buck under 1 foot at 15-20 foot range.
The only down side is the 2+1 capacity.
I just practice "fire one load one"
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Old November 8, 2005, 06:18 PM   #20
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I thought it was gospel that a person who was used to his pump shotgun could cycle it faster than most or all autoloaders cycle. I don't actually know from experience.

I regard a clean autoloader, like my Browning Auto-5, as more reliable than a pump in my hands. That's because I don't play with shotguns a lot, and I recognize my limitations. There are plenty of ways to get a pump to jam through operator error, and I'm not so egotistical that I'll rule that out. I have never had a failure with my Auto-5. Also, the Auto-5 can be reloaded without taking it out of the ready-to-fire state. This is probably true of some or most pumps, but I don't really know, not having any interest in pumps.

It seems obvious to me that a good pump is a slightly superior weapon for the person who will be playing (shooting) with it regularly, and a good autoloader is noticeably superior for the person who hasn't and won't.
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Old November 8, 2005, 06:22 PM   #21
AJ Peacock
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I've timed them, and the pump is faster in trained hands. Also, once it runs empty, it can be loaded/fired faster (via the ejection port) than an auto.

At least my pumps (870, and 1897's are faster than my 1100's and 11-87's).

For most pumps, all you have to do is drop a round in the port, close the action and fire. With an auto, you have to drop one in, then release the action, then fire. At least 1/2second faster with the pump.

Pump is more reliable.
Pump handles much wider variety of ammo.
Pump is cheaper.
Pump has no O-rings to dry out.
Pump has no gas ports to keep clean.


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Old November 8, 2005, 06:30 PM   #22
AK103K
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Quote:
Best kind of shotgun for a fight
...is a SMG!

lighter, smaller, easier to shoot well, especially for smaller stature people, way faster to reload, covers the same distances and farther without changing ammo, can be easily suppressed, etc, etc,
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Old November 8, 2005, 06:36 PM   #23
3o3brit
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I diagree with the speed of reload from empty.
With the pump, when the last round is fired, you must pump the action open, load a round, pump it closed, then fire.
The auto will eject the last round leaving the action open, drop in a round, hit the release and fire.
On mine the release is the magazine follower, after dropping on in the open action just continue to load the magazine and the actiom will automaticaly load the chamber.
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Old November 8, 2005, 07:17 PM   #24
gordo b.
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This deserves reposting:
"There are plenty of ways to get a pump to jam through operator error, and I'm not so egotistical that I'll rule that out. I have never had a failure with my Auto-5. Also, the Auto-5 can be reloaded without taking it out of the ready-to-fire state. This is probably true of some or most pumps, but I don't really know, not having any interest in pumps."

That said I'm NOT so sure about other autoloaders, seen too many finiky Benellis and 1100's , both of which I LIKE!
However my 870 combat weapons are as close to perfection in trained hands as I have seen. SOOOO:

I keep my mid 80's Robar modified 12.5" stocked, surefirelighted 18" 870P (and it's newer brother) hanging cruiser ready in the SAFES to follow up the initial response in the event of a gunjacking or other SHTF situation!
The customised Bennelli with light is near the bed or in the fortified bedroom closet if I'm not home. And the old "tactical A-5 Browning" ride around in the ranch truck/jeep
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Old November 8, 2005, 08:19 PM   #25
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A SG is better thana SMG for home defense, In instead of 1 handgun sized round per trigger pull you get 15. With an 8 shell capacity thats 120 rounds without reloading. Also, as those rounds are land at the exact same time, so shock the nervous system is much greater than even 15 9mm rounds fired rapidly would cause. In properly trained hands a shotgunner will beat a subgunner everytime(in HD ranges) If you have to shoot beyond 50m however, a SMG is much better than a SG. Of course, at those ranges a rifle is better than both.
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