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Old October 15, 2005, 02:33 AM   #1
AndrewTB
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What if Terrorist attack malls?

Ok so I remember a notice the FBI put out after 9/11 about terrorist possibly attacking malls and grocery stores on busy days etc..


So its come to my mind since I spend a lot of time at my local mall. What would you do if a group of middle eastern men just started opening fire with the basic guns like AK-47? They would be much more effective then a bomb.


Personally I would not want people to die on my watch. Seeing as how im not legal too CCW id run out to the car and grab my gun. Then id think something up and try to pick them off one by one as quickly as possible. I personally wouldnt mind sacraficing myself if it were to save multiple lives including children etc...

To me this is the most likley SHTF situation. At least for now. Terroism attacks like that is all I really worry about.

I just want opinions on what you would do.

I posted what I THINK I would do. Can't say for sure though unless it really happend.
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Old October 15, 2005, 03:16 AM   #2
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Old October 15, 2005, 03:24 AM   #3
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CRAPP!PPPP!!

Thank you Kozak. Better use the search function.
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Old October 15, 2005, 06:56 AM   #4
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ANd you would end up being one more of the dead

First off by the time you got your gun they would have killed all they were going to kill and like any low life murder like they are they kill then run.
Second since you have NO training you would just as likley kill an innocent bystander.
Having no gun the best thing to do would be to take cover.
If you have a gun (handgun) and they have AK47 the best thing to do is take cover, John Waynes in real life only get them selves killed, they dont end up with the girl or be the hero.
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Old October 15, 2005, 08:01 AM   #5
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Tom Clancy handled this situation in his novel "The Teeth of the Tiger".
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Old October 15, 2005, 08:06 AM   #6
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The Mall Ninja is ready..

Don't worry, the Mall Ninja has been practicing every scenario, has his armor on, and will get 'em!
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Old October 15, 2005, 08:37 AM   #7
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Ozzieman,
Hero does not enter into the equation.
What does enter into the equation is that Terrorists make a point of taking into account the fact that there are always a social freeloaders that will never even try.

I absolutely hate those who won't even try. They might as well stay home and suicide for all the value thay add to society.
Ultimate loosers. :barf:

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Old October 15, 2005, 10:44 AM   #8
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"Don't worry, the Mall Ninja has been practicing every scenario, has his armor on, and will get 'em!"

Yep! I mean, after all, what are Mall Ninjas for, anyway?
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Old October 15, 2005, 11:18 AM   #9
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The ones you have to really look out for tends to be like that nutjob group from Texas that wanted to set of a biological weapons of mass destruction in a mall. That more likely to happen than the arab attack of the mall in the US and at least three plots like this with white supremist groups have been caught in just the past few years. Going in with ak47s in a mall is just not that effective when you can build a carbomb. Its more likely a bunch of disgruntled kids who would attack with rifles.
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Old October 15, 2005, 11:43 AM   #10
Rob P.
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I agree, it wouldn't be a formal group of terrorists. It'd more likely be a Columbine type incident.

If the shooting is only IN the mall, your plan of action should be to get out of the common areas as fast as possible and into one of the stores. Do not duck behind bench and cover - move into one of the stores and get out of the line of fire. Stores have backdoors to the loading areas and then to the outside. Get out of the place and then get to cover.

If the shooting is only OUTSIDE the mall, stay put, away from the exits or windows or gallery's with outside access or view.

If the shooting is BOTH outside and inside, get out of the common areas and into a store. Have others watch the other access points and be ready to evacuate to other areas if the shooters come in. Yes you could be driven or herded to a slaughter area, but that takes time and hopefully LEO will show up before that eventuality happens. This scenario is unlikely as it would take a couple dozen participants to fully cover the exits and man the interior sweeps. Unlikey unless it was a terrorist group and they wouldn't choose a shopping mall for this type of act - more likely to use a truck bomb instead.
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Old October 15, 2005, 11:55 AM   #11
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An all too real type of scenario, FBI warnings about mall attacks has been written about in papers and on the net for the last few years. Sad part is there is very little you can do as these terrorist "cowards" sneak attack with bombs, as in the Spain and London bombings. The only solution is for our troops, since the rest of the world save England has no balls, to kill these vermin where they breed.
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Old October 15, 2005, 01:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Sad part is there is very little you can do as these terrorist "cowards" sneak attack with bombs, as in the Spain and London bombings.
I have to agree, there really isn't anything that you can do, aside from following the definition of Militia and allowing 16 to 40 year olds to carry guns (but in reality, even I would have a problem with the 16 age in this day and age and even some 18/19 year olds) for the protection of the People.

IMHO we are going about this entire war on terror the wrong way. No, not the war in Iraq, I still believe in that just from my own experiences over there (the middle east, never been to Iraq) but what we are doing here at home.

Everyone is pointing toward the government to be there to protect them. Everyone is pointing at creating laws that remove our freedoms just so they have a feeling of security. Most people are making their plan A to involve the government, state or federal, and believe that is all they need to do.

Yet, we've seen what happens recently when that is the only plan that the People have, and we've seen that it doesn't work.

I for one, if I were the governor of a State, would not only have my National Guard but I would have in every city/town a People's Guard. They would have to bring their own weapons, as well as ammo, but I would set up training, as well as first aid training. I would also train in chemical and biological responses and give them tax breaks for buying their own masks, armor, first aid kits, etc..

Basically, I would ensure that the first responders started at the personal level and not the governmental level. And I would give them every opportunity to gear up to first help themselves, and then others (think of it this way, when you take a flight, the attendent states that you place the mask over your face first, and then help others, because you are no good if you pass out helping others first and then try to help yourself).

Sadly, the People have it backwards. And the government wants it that way. The People want the government to come in and save them, are ticked off when it doesn't happen, and then place the blame on them (the government) and the government doesn't try to help people help themselves because they want it this way.

And no, not paranoid, just watched, read, and learned from Katrina. As governor, the first responders would start with the individual and then go up the ranks, not the other way around.

Wayne
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Old October 15, 2005, 02:57 PM   #13
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If I didnt try wouldnt the person innocent bystanders end up getting killed regardless?

You have no idea how bad id feel if I didnt do anything. Not trying to bring a hero aspect into the picture. The way I see it is doing the right thing. If someones firing back theyll be less likley to target innocent people and have to direct fire towards the real threat.
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Old October 15, 2005, 03:03 PM   #14
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In NY, radio and TV commercials have been asking people to help out and watch for any strange or suspicious behavior, and if seen, report it. Ironic because in NYC you can barely own a gun much less carry it. Here on Long Island the laws are much more relaxed for ownership, but forget about carry unless you are rich or a celeb. So on the one hand they want you to be on the lookout, possible risking life and limb, on the other no self-protection for the rare occasion when it might be needed.
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Old October 15, 2005, 03:06 PM   #15
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USP,
I believe that terrorist have realized that bombings have been somewhat ineffective and easier to stop.

Id say a well armorer group of terroist can do MUCH more damage then a few tiny bombs.

Id defintley say terrorist are starting to loose their skill. They honestly seem to have gone way down hill IMO.
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Old October 15, 2005, 03:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
I believe that terrorist have realized that bombings have been somewhat ineffective and easier to stop.

Id say a well armorer group of terroist can do MUCH more damage then a few tiny bombs.

Id defintley say terrorist are starting to loose their skill. They honestly seem to have gone way down hill IMO.
Actually, they have ramped up the suicide bombings in the Middle East instead of using guns. Bombs are much more effective in a crowded area.

The only reason to "hit and run" would be to get the feds on your group so that other groups have the chance to carry out their attacks. Devert their attention (feds) and advance yours (the terrorist).

One of the things that I will not say about the terrorist is that their leadership is stupid. I can't underestimate them, no matter how much my American arrogance tries to get the better of me. And until I see the jerking action of the last leg of the insect we call terrorist, I will not rest or try to say to myself that they are done for.

I still say that our ability to fight this, is on the People and not on the government.

Wayne
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Old October 15, 2005, 05:01 PM   #17
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The citizenry are always the first responders. Who do you think calls the cops and FD?

The political power in this nation belongs to the people, not the government. We only loaned it to them. If you do not think they are making good use of it, take it back.

The handgun has been proven to be effective against suicide bombers in the hands of vigilant citizens. Notice I said vigilant not vigilante. There is a difference. Don't ever go looking for trouble, but when you come across it act appropriatly like men do not like herbivores. Get your head out of your exhaust system and pay attention to what is going on.
Be vigilant and act appropriatly.

:barf: on social freeloaders, treat them with the contempt they deserve and avoid their company at all times.


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Old October 15, 2005, 08:06 PM   #18
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Slightly off-topic:

When the Rodney King verdict came down, my nephew and his wife were in the mall. Youth started running through the mall, overturning benches, garbage cans, and threatening people. He only had a pocket knife for protection. He pushed his wife into the nearest store and opened his knife in case he had to fight. Nothing came of it. But here is the kicker:

THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA!

You just never know what can happen anywhere. (He is a firm believer in CCW now )
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Old October 16, 2005, 10:29 AM   #19
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At the risk of not being a macho hero - I would suggest that for a civilian without extensive military or LEO training, you need to have some significant force on force training in this scenario.

Having a handgun and facing reasonably competent individuals with fully auto weapons (or good semiauto long guns) is quite exciting. You are at a terrible disadvantage. It is easy to say that you will be clever and will slink around and pick them off.

Easier said than done.

Expect to die - your most rational choice if you are concerned with self and family is to flee if you can. If you don't have to save anyone close to you, get out of Dodge.

Ok - you've decided that fleeing is not in plan and you fully expect to die - not that you won't try to live, but you know that ninja crappola aside, you are probably going to get hurt - the best plan I heard, is try to take someone down and get their long gun - then you are more reasonable in the fight.

If the group is together and trained - then prepare for your suicide run. Of course, you might take a covered position and plink them all down. One never knows.

I guess my point is that if one was truly worried about such stuff - rather than the usual what gun should I use crap on the internet - I would buy a quality handgun (like a Glock or a Sig) and except for ammo, I would spend the rest of my gun related money in real training.
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Old October 16, 2005, 10:51 AM   #20
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Glenn has some good advice there, along with others who advocate discretion as the better part of valor.

In such a scenario, anything you do can get you killed - including nothing.

So some nut jobs start whacking people in a mall with long guns. Panic ensues. You're armed with a 2" J-frame or a CCW Glock. You manage to get your loved ones into a store along with yourself -- so what now?

Try to get everyone out the back door or loading dock, even a side exit if possible. If you have to, get the store clerk(s) to lead people outside. YOUR job is now to play "rear guard" as you get your loved ones and your own fanny outside. You head is on a swivel checking out any access points to the mall and your primary goal is defense should one or more of them step into the store.

As to being "herded" towards a central area (whether for slaughter or hostages), if they're using gunfire to herd folks, the noise of that and screaming may be to your advantage. If you will pass close to a single gunman you may be able to use close proximity and the "surprise" several shots from your pistol to get his long gun. Or simply let him be and hope you can take out others that way.
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Old October 16, 2005, 11:38 AM   #21
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I would duck into the nearest shop (since malls seem to be loaded with them) and get into a back room, dressing room, etc. Anywhere I can fix my gun on one point and stay put till things clear up. Fight your way to it possibly, but dont pursue a running gun battle with a bunch of guys with rifles!

Unlike some apparently, I dont feel a moral obligation to put myself or my loved ones at risk to attempt saving others by attacking the gunmen. Escaping is really your only option.

IT IS important to have a "sort-of" plan for this possibility, but all in all it rates on the EXTREMELY unlikely portion of our scale.
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Old October 16, 2005, 12:50 PM   #22
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If I couldn't run away for some reason, I would probably try to find someplace like a narrow corridor to a bathroom or any other kind of funnel. I would hole up there, and pray they don't find me. If they do find me, well, the hall isn't wide enough for them to spread out and I am already aiming in their direction. At that point I would be simply hoping to get as many of them as I could before they got me.
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Old October 16, 2005, 01:24 PM   #23
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Glenn E. Meyer

Quote:
I would suggest that for a civilian without extensive military or LEO training, you need to have some significant force on force training in this scenario.
In this one, maybe since it's gun being used. But if bombs, I remember that older lady in Israel that blew the brains out of the suidcide bomber in the market place. She was right there, drew her gun, and blew out his brains so that he wasn't able to detonate the bomb.

I think that we need more of her around then more of those that will do nothing. She could have died if the bomber was able to detonate the bomb, but she acted first, thought about that later (I would guess).

Yet I understand the issue of family also. I will not call those that don't act a coward, as I will call those that did, a hero.

To tell you the truth, I'm tired of fighting among ourselves. The paranoid of where, when, if, why, should we, moniker that is put on others because of what they do or where they do it. I'm tired of fighting the "Us vs. Them" threads where it seems as if everyone is trying to force their beliefs on others and that this or that is right, wrong, indifferent.

I find that maybe we need more positive things, more smiles instead of frowns, more happiness instead of anger. More respect and like, less judgement and contempt.

Less intolerance and no second chances, more understanding.

I forgot who said it, posted it, but they basically said that we are all different but one thing is bringing us together, and that is the like of guns, our 2nd amendment rights, and our having and believing in both.

And this past year has shown me one thing, that life is short, there is no time for hate, anger, contempt, or intolerance.

Wayne
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Old October 16, 2005, 01:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Having a handgun and facing reasonably competent individuals with fully auto weapons (or good semiauto long guns)
Who says terrorists are "reasonably competent"? Their handler's don't spend any more time than necessary to give them the basic skills to MAYBE accomplish the act. Why should they? A new crop of "martyrs" comes along the next day. Religious fervor aside, they can't be the sharpest crayons in the box by the nature of the acts they commit.

Someone once said: "May all your enemies be on 'full-auto'"!
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Old October 16, 2005, 03:44 PM   #25
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Id have to agree terrorist are competent with guns. They use gun ranges and practices just as we do. If its a more organized group that came over from the mideast they have even better training.


I personally want to take more gun classes to prepare for certain situations plus have some fun at the same time.


Its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation.
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