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Old November 8, 2005, 08:47 PM   #26
Dwight55
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Just for the record, . . . there is nobody, . . . nobody, . . . that can put 7 rounds out of any other type of shotgun as fast and as accurately and as flawlessly as one trained with a Beretta semi auto. Other semi auto's will, . . . but the trombone action shuckers only do that in their dreams and ninja stories.

Anyone trying with a shuck action will be all over the target area and maybe, just maybe, one round will be on target.

All the 870 ninjas can now flame away, . . . but until you can put 7 empties all in the air at the same time from the same shotgun, . . . you can't hold a candle.

Oh, . . . yeah, . . . they all stay on target too.

May God bless,
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Old November 8, 2005, 08:56 PM   #27
AJ Peacock
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I diagree with the speed of reload from empty.
With the pump, when the last round is fired, you must pump the action open, load a round, pump it closed, then fire.
http://www.jspublications.net/record...hotgun2.79.MPG


Here is a nice video of a Cowboy action shooter shooting 4 shots, starting with an empty shotgun on a table and no shells in his hands. It takes him less than 3 seconds to do this. There are only a handful of folks that can do it in under 3 seconds, but even I can do it in around 4 seconds. Someone please post a video of someone starting with NO shells in hand and shooting 4 shots from an auto (starting empty) in under 3 seconds, 4 seconds, 5 seconds etc.

Keep in mind that these videos are with PUMP shotguns that where designed and first released in 1897. Thats 108 years ago!

Here is one of 6 shots on 6 knockdown poppers in 4.64 seconds starting with an empty shotgun. Lets see someone do that with an auto.
http://www.jspublications.net/records/TGReaper97.wmv

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Old November 8, 2005, 09:17 PM   #28
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PUMP...PUMP...PUMP...! Can you feel it?
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Old November 8, 2005, 10:55 PM   #29
AJ Peacock
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Maybe at your range, but not at mine!

Quote:
Just for the record, . . . there is nobody, . . . nobody, . . . that can put 7 rounds out of any other type of shotgun as fast and as accurately and as flawlessly as one trained with a Beretta semi auto. Other semi auto's will, . . . but the trombone action shuckers only do that in their dreams and ninja stories.
Dwight55, Give me a time for the 7 shots and also for 8 shots. I've watched a model '97 beat (for $$'s) 6 shots from a brand new supergun/Beretta with the rotary yada yada yada. The pump only beat him by 2/10ths of a second, but thats what I saw. He did it twice in a row.

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Anyone trying with a shuck action will be all over the target area and maybe, just maybe, one round will be on target.
NOT! You need to shoot with folks that know how to run a pump.

AJ
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Old November 8, 2005, 10:55 PM   #30
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..Doug, I say..if you're forced to kill, then at least kill in style..thats why I bought a mint 1959 Winchester model 12 riot....the only thing I might like better is a Winchester model 97 riot.....something about an exposed hammer....the idea to shoot rapidly is putting pressure on the forearm so during the recoil recovery you are chambering a fresh shell at the same time...Dwight..with buckshot you are not all over the target area there is buckshot all over the target area...
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Old November 9, 2005, 12:00 AM   #31
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When I shot skeet (clays) I did better with a pump. I don't know if it was the time it took to pump in another shell or what. I don't know, I just know that I did better with a pump.

But all in all, it really doesn't matter, what are you best with? A pump, a semi? If you can get all your shots into the general area then what does it matter what you use?

Even if a pump is slower, what is .5 or less seconds that it takes to pump the gun, to pulling the trigger?

With a shotgun, if you have to unload the tube into a person, you are either 1) a very bad point and shooter, or 2) need to rethink your choice of ammo.

Plus, you can't walk toward your target/targets with a cowboy type walk and then chamber a shell using one hand while showing the gun go up and down in a menacing manner .

Wayne
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Old November 9, 2005, 12:24 AM   #32
model 25
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I bought a nice 870 pump not too long ago from a guy that takes in police trade ins. Seems the police out here are moving away from the shotgun all together and going to the M16.

There reasons were;

Shotgun with buckshot was only a reliable weapon out to 35 meters. After 35 meters the shot would spread too far and put civilians at risk.

Slugs had too much penetration

Shotguns limited to 6 or seven rounds

I got a good deal $180 and the 870 is like new ( keep it in the house, nothing over 35 meters there).

25
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Old November 9, 2005, 12:49 AM   #33
somethingmustdie
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the rate of fire is definately in a shooter. ive only fired a few remington semis, but i did not try to rapid fire any of them. it was just some random plinking.
i once read an article about pump vs semi in swat mag or combat tactics. the writer said he watched the instructor for the course work a pump much faster than he had ever seen a semi fired before.

i always thought of it as manual tranny vs auto. less work needs to be done by the operator, but horsepower is lost...

im sure the type of action (gas vs inertia recoil vs whatever) makes a little bit of a difference too.

i use pump 870s. thats it. easy to take apart. theyll run with any round. works for me.
after watching tom knapps 10 in the air video (benelliusa.com) with a benelli m2, however, it made me wonder if that could be done with a pump.
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Old November 9, 2005, 12:55 AM   #34
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Seems the police out here are moving away from the shotgun all together and going to the M16.
It seems the younger guys tend to go with the fancier, auto weapons, but I've been in this business long enough to tell you that the police shotgun is by far the most formidable weapon in the police arsenal, and its versatility and effectiveness cannot be denied. Except for situations where a precision shooter is needed, the shotgun will do everything the rifle will do and more. Long range, precision shots in law enforcement are rare; most shots requiring "heavy weapons" are at far closer ranges. The shotgun is a true "one shot stop" weapon at close range, and perhaps the only one (except for a brain stem shot by a precision shooter). It can be used as a breeching tool for closed doors (00 at the hinges), it can shoot around corners and under vehicles in ricochet shooting, and the variety of ammo available is astounding. Ferret rounds used during a high risk stop will empty a van of occupants refusing to exit in a heartbeat. You can have your MP-5's, your M-16's, and your P-90's. My experience is, I'll take an 870-P any day.
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Old November 9, 2005, 01:01 AM   #35
model 25
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You can have your MP-5's, your M-16's, and your P-90's. My experience is, I'll take a 870-P any day.

That's why I loved getting their 870, good enough for this old man

25
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Old November 9, 2005, 01:59 AM   #36
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How many 12 ga rounds are required for an average home owner to stop a fight? If any are fired , it will usualy be 1or 2,reloading becomes a concern on tactical teams because of mhltiple targets at varying areas. The typical "street , home " fight is over in seconds. Pump works fine, as it has for almost 100+ years. Been there done it.
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Old November 9, 2005, 05:09 AM   #37
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In instead of 1 handgun sized round per trigger pull you get 15.
I can get 30 with my MP5, if I really wanted.

Quote:
Also, as those rounds are land at the exact same time, so shock the nervous system is much greater than even 15 9mm rounds fired rapidly would cause.
The effect is the same with a three round burst from a SMG on full auto. Instantaneous multiple hits shuts the nervous system down, just like a SG.

It sounds like your describing a 9mm on semi instead of full.
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Old November 9, 2005, 05:38 AM   #38
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but until you can put 7 empties all in the air at the same time from the same shotgun, . . . you can't hold a candle. Oh, . . . yeah, . . . they all stay on target too.
Are we to assume this shooter is reassessing the effectiveness of each shot he places into a threat before expending more ammo? Or are we to assume he is just emptying out a shotgun into the first threat he sees while several others lurk in the shadows? Surely you do not mean he is moving throughout his home engaging seven different threats and making solid hits on them all before the empties hit the ground!

This kind of ultra automatic speed is not needed with a 12 gauge against home invaders. Slower, considered shooting is. The person who wins a gunfight is not the person who empties out his gun first.
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Old November 9, 2005, 09:09 AM   #39
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I have no doubt I can put down an intruder with a shotgun, however I have a Remington 870 12 gauge with a 26 inch barrel and my house has wierd angles and hallways (to get to my defensive position at the top of the stairs)that I just feel more comfortable with a handgun. Since I got my handgun, the shotgun is the "last stand" weapon that I would hand to my wife for her to defend herself and the kids, if something happens to me. Problem is my wife HATES shooting the shotgun because of the weight and recoil. I was considering getting a mossberg 500 (just trying something different and it is a little cheaper) with a shorter barrel in 20 gauge. You think 20 gauge will do it, in terms of stopping power? Also any major problems with Mossberg??? I know someone with mossberg 500 and they have no complaints.
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Old November 9, 2005, 09:17 AM   #40
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You think 20 gauge will do it, in terms of stopping power? Also any major problems with Mossberg???
The Mossy 500 is my favorite. It's a fine, well designed shotgun IMHO. As far as the wife and a 12 gauge, before getting a 20 gauge, I would get her good solid instruction with the 12. Many small women handle a 12 gauge just fine.
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Old November 9, 2005, 10:09 AM   #41
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Mikeyboy:

You keep the shotgun and give her two handguns. If she is uncomfortable with the recoil, she will hesitate at the worst moment. She needs to have something in her hand she can use and be accurate with.

The hubster has his Mossbert 500, and that's his HD weapon. Mine are my two pistols, plus I'd probably have the Sig.22 along just in case.

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Old November 9, 2005, 10:32 AM   #42
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I have to agree with the posters that mention the pump being faster and more reliable. I have several shotguns, both semi auto and pump, and find the pumps to be faster and more reliable. There is something about the look and sound of a pump shotgun cycling that is very intimidating. JMO

Frank D
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:03 AM   #43
greeneggsnham
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i think the best shotgun for a fight is one that's loaded and close at hand. of the many choices, when on my atv i carry a NEF sawed off but legal single shot, several rounds of buckshot in my right pocket, and squirrel shot in the left.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:46 AM   #44
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"Except for situations where a precision shooter is needed"

Which to my way of thinking is always

At standard HD ranges the load (including the wad) will likely go through one ragged hole

Precision IS required...we are shooting armed people not birds on the wing

A carbine beats a scattergun for almost every occaison

Other than specialty rounds and breaching they have pretty much been replaced
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Old November 9, 2005, 01:17 PM   #45
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Precision IS required...we are shooting armed people not birds on the wing
I am, of course, talking about snipers. Precision shooter seems to have become the PC term for that, and no, a "scattergun" (hate that term, 00 doesn't scatter all that much and unless you're trying to take out wave after wave of screaming, charging zombies , you don't want it to scatter.) won't match a scoped .308 or .223 for pinpoint accuracy. The rifle has it's place, but so does the shotgun.

Carbines are fine for agencies working in rural areas, but in highly urbanized areas? Nope. We have a lot of housing projects here. Walls are paper thin, and you don't want a rifle round going through multiple apartments (which has happened here, but the shooter was a BG, weapon was an SKS.) yes, a load of 00 will also go through walls, but not nearly to the extent of a rifle round.

As to precision, at practical, urban distances up to 25 yds., I'll take my 870-P with Rottweiller sabots and match your carbine with irons round for round.

Talk to veteran cops. Any that've "been there" will tell you they still favor the shotgun.
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Old November 9, 2005, 01:31 PM   #46
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Talk to veteran cops. Any that've "been there" will tell you they still favor the shotgun.
Do they have enough experience on both to give a realistic reply? Or are they prejudiced towards the shotgun because its all they know?
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Old November 9, 2005, 04:51 PM   #47
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pumps also give full power to the shot not like the semi-auto which uses some of the gas to cycle the gun and chamber another round.
Gas operated firearms--shotguns and everything else--unlock ONLY after the shot or charge is long gone from the barrel.

We have a word for what happens when the action unlocks while the bullet/charge is still in the barrel. It's called a kaBoom!
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Old November 9, 2005, 05:26 PM   #48
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Spring mom

Quote:
give her two handguns.
Why two? I don't this is case where two is better than one. You would be much better served by one quality handgun you have trained with and can fire with accuracy and a few spare magazines/speedloaders then two HGs.
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Old November 9, 2005, 05:31 PM   #49
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The best kind of shot gun to me would be the one that works during a fight.
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Old November 9, 2005, 06:41 PM   #50
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I would think that for the average semi trained operator..wouldnt it be more easy in a high stress encounter to work a pump gun as opposed to a semi? My compact 870 clone is awesome..and totally rugged.
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