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Old November 4, 2005, 01:01 PM   #1
King_pin
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Firearms Training

I was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions on a good firearms training institute.

Im a buisness owner. Hopefully the time will never come, but if im robbed or assulted. I would like to know I can defend myself.

Ive heard that the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute in Nevada is very good. If you have and suggestions on others please reply.
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Old November 4, 2005, 02:19 PM   #2
Rimrod
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Let me ask you a question.

Would you attend a small business management school ran by people who have never ran a business? And to be fair, they have been schooled by and read books by, other people who have never been in business either. Oh, and they have a certificate to validate their expertise.
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Old November 4, 2005, 02:43 PM   #3
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King Pin,

I have no idea what Ramrod was talking about, so I won't guess. I have heard good things about Front Sight and Blackwater (friends have went to both). Personally, I have been trained at the SigArms Academy in NH and will say that they were wonderful. I know that there are more out there, but these are the 3 I personally have heard or know good things about.
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Old November 6, 2005, 06:48 AM   #4
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What I was talking about...

The country is full of shooting schools and experts but none of them that I know of has ever been in a single shooting situation, let alone enough situations to make them experts. ( I do know of several that lied about their qualifications though.) But to listen to people talk about them, they are the greatest thing since toilet paper although not quite as useful. I always see someone praising them for something or other and will defend to the death anyone who questions their favorite hero.

Their techniques are based on theory and not fact. They selectively present information in a way that subjectively supports their theory while putting down anythig that goes against it.

I have spent the last 26 years in various forms of law enforcement. The first 20 of those in denial because I fell for it also. Even though there were incidents all along the way that should have told me their was something wrong. Am I qualified to call myself an expert? No, far from it. But as least I finally learned something.

When I finally admitted that my mentors were full of crap I bought a copy of the book "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. I never thought it was worth reading because even when I entered law enforcement in 1979 this book was ancient history and all the living experts had a new and improved formula. I not only read it I comprehended it, because it told me exactly what was wrong with the new way of thinking. The only other book that is worthy of reading on the subject is "Kill or Get Killed" by Rex Applegate, although it will tell you a little less then "Shooting to Live" it does have information beyond handguns. There are other books and techniques based on what Fairbairn and Sykes taught but they are B.S. They have added some little stupid idea and are trying to sell their own thoughts, or else there would be no reason to write another book. I did go back and reread my previously mentioned mentors book and realized he wasn't the expert he lead everyone to believe he was.

It doesn't matter if they are schools or gun writers they are only trying to sell something, and we suck it up, while patting ourselves on the back. Look at the quality of american firearms in the last 10 years, they suck. But the big corporate gun companies hire professionals to tell us they are great so we buy them anyway. They cut production costs and raise their prices, they don't care about us they just want our money. Not to mention the millions of dollars we spend each year to make us better shooters. Some of this stuff is O.K. but the vast majority of it is just junk.

So am I telling everyone to go out and buy the book? I don't really care if you do or not. My interest has been in police training since I was about 14 years old. And thanks to the new age of experts their training is at an all time low for stupidity. It used to bother me but not anymore most of them could care less. But as long as there is one I will do my best.

But this is only my opinion. Although if I did go to some school I would expect the teacher to have some experience or knowledge in the subject.
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Old November 6, 2005, 07:39 AM   #5
STEVE M
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OK Rimrod, so you don't like current firearms or current training curriculums and

methods. So what are you suggesting, letting and old book (no matter how

valuable the information is) be your only guide to self defense?

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but you seem to have lost sight of the

posters original question. Where would you suggest he train?

Kingpin, where are you located? there are good schools scattered around

the country, I'd go with a reputable one near me.
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Old November 6, 2005, 10:56 AM   #6
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I went to Sigarms Academy in Epping, NH for my Handgun Orientation class. My wife and I took the class together about 3 months ago. Ed Fasold was the instructor and the class was absolutely excellent. The training grounds were terrific, classroom instruction and materials were top notch, and the hands-on weapons training was well done. I intend to take many more classes with Ed at Sig and I would highly recommend him and Sigarms to anyone interested in doing some firearms training.

As far as experience goes, I don't need to shove my head up a cow to find out whether I'm getting a good piece of steak... I'll take the butcher's word for it.

Ed has been there and done that and you can find his credentials here :
http://www.sigarmsacademy.com/sigarmsacademy/staff.html
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Old November 6, 2005, 11:12 AM   #7
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I can't say much for Blackwater as I haven't taken any of their courses yet. But I intend to. It seems to me that a security company, that sends people to all areas of the world, would have a vested interest in making sure they are trained right.

There is no real "cookie cutter" training. Situations develop differently, and people react differently. You train with what you can, and apply what is right for you. I don't have to be an english proffesor in order to read a book, and I don't have to be in countless exursions behind enemy lines to teach you basic concepts.

So after all of that, take what training you can get, apply all that you can.
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Old November 6, 2005, 11:29 AM   #8
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Yes Steve M

If you look at their book it was based on actual shootings by actual police officers. It was not so much as "look at my way" as it was an unbiased and objective look at how officers reacted in a gunfight regardless as to their shooting training or experience. The F.B.I.s annual report "Law Enforcement Officers Killed And Assaulted" doesn't tell you that although it has been used as the basis of training restructuring.

I have talked to several police officers who have fired their weapons in the line of duty. How they were trained and how they reacted were two different worlds. The statement 'you will do in a gunfight what you do in training' is not correct. I have only fired my hangun once in the line of duty, while it was only at a mad dog that was charging me, I missed. We were trained in a modified style of PPC shooting at the time and I didn't miss, I could shoot distinguished expert any day of the week. The other shootings were more recent using the newer improved techniques.

Why waste time on something that doesn't work? I would rather get a good foundation and build on it from there. Spend your money on ammunition and practice. I had a retired Old School F.B.I. firearms instructor in college, his favorite saying was "practice makes perfect only if your practice is perfect".

And no Steve M I didn't loose sight of the posters question. I answered it most sincerely. Where would I suggest he train? NOWHERE that I know of.

There was more than one brick road that lead out of Munchkinland, but only the yellow one went to Oz.
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Old November 6, 2005, 12:37 PM   #9
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I am pretty sure if you stick with the 3 I mentioned, you'd be ok.

I don't know much about Thunder Ranch but have heard many good things from civilians and other LEO's.

I have a LEO friend of a friend that did some training with Blackwater, then became a PSS for them and recently came back from a deployment in Iraq. He trained and worked with many SF guys-SEALS, Force Recon Marines, etc. He spoke very highly of his training and co-workers, while not getting too in detail about missions, etc. If someone is a former SEAL or a Force Recon Marine, that says a lot about thier training and competency. They well trained and motivated machines. I know there is a lot of hype around SEAL missions and training-but it's for a reason. Being a former Marine, I know the Force Recon guys are hard charging, squared away guys. I plan on taking a class with the Blackwater guys next year and while I can't vouch for their training personally, I have heard enough good from enough reputable sources to consider them a top-notch orginazition.

As I mentioned-SigArms is a good place to train. I have trained there and had a good experience. Just look at their instructors bios to determine if they are posers, or have been there and done that.

I do believe that you will revert to training when in crisis. It has happened to me several times (while not shooting) during my career. I have been training with weapons for many years now and I know what I am doing. I am a firearms instructor that trains people based on the information I have been given by others. I have never shot at anyone and I hope I never have to. Because I've never shot my weapon(s) in an actual real-life situation, doesn't mean that I can't pass on important useful information. I don't think I am an expert, but I know that I routinely help people get better and will hopefully assist in saving their lives should the S@#$ come down.
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Old November 6, 2005, 01:24 PM   #10
AJ Peacock
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KingPin,

Your current proficiency with your firearms will help determine what type of training you should get.

For example, we have several local shooters (retired LEO/competitve type shooters) around here that teach CCW, tactical shooting etc. They do it as a sideline and do it basically 'for free'. They have attended the different 'famous' training academies and have learned a lot from each one (not disciples of any of them though). The one thing they have impressed upon me is that if the SHTF, my job is to STAY ALIVE. They told me that too many people get into the mode of 'Shoot the Bad Guy' instead of 'Stay Alive'.

For most shooters, spending some time with local 'experts' to gain a solid foundation of firearm handling, accuracy etc. is better time spent than traveling to a 'big/specialized' training academy.

Self defense/firearms training is a LONG process (entire lifetime). Having a local mentor/teacher is nice, as they aren't all the way across the country when you have a question/concern.

Once that basis is set, then it may be advantageous to attend a bigger more specialized school.

I'm not negative on anyone going anywhere to learn something. I've heard good things about the previously mentioned schools. I just wanted to give you a little different perspective to consider.

If/when you attend one of the schools, make sure you post your experience.

If/when I attend one, it will be in Phoenix in January.

Good Luck,
AJ
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Old November 6, 2005, 03:39 PM   #11
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I looked up Mr. Fasolds Qualifications...

So What! I quess you didn't comprehend anything I said. I have a list of qualifications and certifications also. And I know people who make mine look pitiful. Does that make me or them an expert? No. All that does is enable me to teach what I've been taught, but what if it is wrong? Which I feel it is.

You want to take training? By all means go for it, buy a shirt while your there too to inmpress all your friends and make sure to tell them you would like to be buried in it. Obviously you didn't get the point I don't care what YOU do.

I have been to Advanced handgun schools too. I also know cops who have gone to some of the same schools listed here and they have a hard time to qualify. I said I read Fairbairns and Sykes book and comprehended it, I'll let you in on a little secret-SEAL training, Special Forces training and SWAT training all have similarities to theirs whether they know it or not.

And I probably would take my buthcers word for it. But if it came from my mechanic I would probably start looking for my shower cap.
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Old November 6, 2005, 04:16 PM   #12
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I’ve taken classes at both Front Site and Gunsite in Arizona. Both are excellent schools.
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Old November 6, 2005, 04:38 PM   #13
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Being in a gunfight doesnt confer expertise on anyone. As a matter of fact, frequently being in a gunfight could be interpreted as a lack of expertise, given how our goal should be to resolve situations without resorting to lethal force. (There are of course exceptions, such as Jim Cirillo, whose position required him to engage in a number of gunfights apparently). The times I came closest to trigger press was when I had made small errors that accumulated into near-death experiences, for someone

Training is like a buffet, some are better than others, but you can learn something at all of them, even if it is what doesnt work. Further, you can pick and choose what you like and what works for you.

Check and see if John Farnam is doing any classes in your area, he does a great program
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Old November 6, 2005, 05:48 PM   #14
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Where you live may determine the best place to get training. If Front Sight is close, it's probably your best bargain, but it isn't a place I usually recommend, if only because it rubs me the wrong way. My recommendations, based on my training experiences:
Among fixed facilities, I recommend Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, ITTS, RangeMaster, InSights, and the Rogers Shooting School, although I haven't taken the Rogers' Basic course. Among itinerant instructors, I recommend Randy Cain, Louis Awerbuck, Bill Jeans, Pat Rogers, and John Farnam. Some of the fixed facility trainers will occasionally go on the road, too.
Despite what Rimrod claims, many of the instructors in the above schools have been involved in shootings. More importantly, many students of the above schools have been faced with lethal threats and have prevailed- something is working.
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Old November 6, 2005, 07:51 PM   #15
Rimrod
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Let's See

What you gentlemen are saying doesn't impress me, although I never asked for your opinions. And what I have to say doesn't impress you, although I was only giving my opinion to King_pin. And the last time I looked I had that right just the same as you. I cannot help it if what I say offends you, and don't take that as an apology.

I am not going to continue in this match because quite frankly, as I mentioned earlier, what you guys do doesn't concern me one bit. But out of respect to King_pin, who asked a serious question, I think we should try and limit further comments toward that end.

If you want to continue this ping pong game, let's start a different thread. Although it will end the same way.
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Old November 6, 2005, 08:04 PM   #16
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King pin; if it's good basic skillsets you want, Frontsight is a very good choice.
Avanced course's will do you no good without a solid foundation. This is where FS really shines. Dale Ernhardt didn't learn to drive at 190 MPH.
Rimrod, c'mon, tell us how you really feel.
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Old November 9, 2005, 09:53 PM   #17
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Rimrod obviously has very little actual training or experience. It has been my experience that when someone goes to such great lengths to badmouth someplace that they have never been that they are either very insecure and feel inadequate or they are sexually dysfunctional.

Front Sight is the largest firearms training facility in the country and trains more people than all the other recognized schools combined. Almost all of their instructors are either combat veterans, experienced LEO's or both. The quality of the training there cannot be matched. You can take various 2 and 4 day handgun, rifle and shotgun courses. There are advanced tactical classes for civilians as well as LE and military. There is an executive protection course, rapelling, CQB segments are taught in the 400 yards of underground tunnels that they have installed. If that isn't enough, there is martial arts, open-hand defense and edged weapons classes. If you really want to rock and roll, you can take submachine gun and select-fire M-16 classes. If accuracy and precision interests you, try the precision rifle course.

I can assure you that you will not regret on minute of time or dollar expended on Front Sight. There are lots of good schools out there but FS is the top of the line.
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Old November 10, 2005, 06:26 AM   #18
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Desertcout1

I obviously have more training and experience than you will ever have and if you want to flame someone go flick your bic somewhere else.
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Old November 10, 2005, 06:35 AM   #19
Rimrod
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And by the way Desertscout1

Since you are badmouthing me and you don't know me, which are you? Insecure about your training schools or sexually dysfunctional?
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Old November 10, 2005, 07:26 AM   #20
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Fairbairn and Sykes

Weren't they the founders of CQC training?

I'm betting this book has some very useful principles. I'll make a point to get it and read it.

By the way... cool off, it's the internet.
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Old November 10, 2005, 08:22 AM   #21
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Depends on what you're looking for...

Schools have their area of focus, IE: Tactical Shooting, Defense, Police, Military, etc etc

.
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Old November 10, 2005, 08:24 AM   #22
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Thanks Stratus. I'm cool, every confrontation is educational including these. They help in dealing with people with wide varying personalities which I do every day. Although I did let Desertscout1 get to me a little I learned from it.

Yes Fairbairn and Sykes were the founders of CQC, along with Rex Applegate who learned from Fairbairn. The "Shooting to Live" book is small but full of information. It is based on why and how Fairbairn and Sykes developed their firearms training for police. For a good book on CQC you might also read Rex Applegates book "Kill or Get Killed" if you haven't already.
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Old November 10, 2005, 08:33 AM   #23
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King_pin ... Somewhere in the bickering match someone mentioned getting local training first. If you are asking about places to train, it would suggest that your level of training (or skills) is low to moderate. That being the case, I would also suggest getting some loacl hands on before seeking a large school. I say this because you can learn much more if you have a solid base before going to an intense and condensed 2 or 4 day course. Remember, most of the larger schools focus on different techniques, each have their own reasons. Having a knowledge base before attending will allow you to determine what works for YOU.

If you would let us know in what area you live in, one of us should be able to guide you to a local instructor that will help you build this foundation.
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Old November 10, 2005, 08:11 PM   #24
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Ok, Rimrod needs a cold shower I think...

My basic premis about training is that no matter what kind of training you get, good, bad, or indifferent, it's ALWAYS training. I may be new to the gun side of training, but I'm certainly not new to training that will save your life. I've been training for many years about fireground operations and I've had everything from the best to the worst when it comes to training. The LAST thing you want is BAD training when you're talking about walking into a room where you can't see at all, have the lives of innocent people you are trying to save, the always looming risk of collapase, with tempatures reaching into 4 digit degrees. Pretty much one of the LAST places you'd want to have horrible training on what to do and when to do it. One mistake there could mean the lives of yourself, your crew, and the people you are paid to save.

ALL TRAINING IS GOOD TRAINING. It either teaches you something you haven't thought of before or it shows you something that you should never even think of doing. I look at all the training, good and bad, and use it to make myself a better firefighter and make my brothers better firefighters, That all comes from getting the best training and the worst training. It all teaches you something. I have been helping to train 5 new "probies" all this week on the fireground. We need to see how they were trained so that we can help "fix" things that could kill them or us in the next fire we come across. We have to depend on them when the SHTF and we need them to know what to do and what not to do.

We can all sit here and bicker about how training is good or just a waste of time, but when it comes down to having lead thrown through the air, hopefully some of that "training", good or bad, steers you in the proper direction. I've had my butt in the **** and I've felt the weight of close to 1,000 degrees trying to get inside my bunker gear and I can honestly say that every piece of training I have ever had, good AND bad, has helped bring myself and my crew back out safely.

So I say get as much trainging as you can and put everything in the best perspective that you can based on your exeperiences and goals. Hope you NEVER have to put that training to use against someone else, but be prepared to do so if need be. Never stop training.
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Old November 15, 2005, 09:17 PM   #25
Ron R.
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I attended Front Site 4 day handgun earlier this year. I found the training and instructors outstanding and would highly recommend it. Look for certificates online for the training. You can find good deals since many people have bought memberships and are given certificates for classes they can sell or give away.
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