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Old November 2, 2005, 09:21 PM   #1
injun
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Smokeless powder in a muzzleloader?

Hi everyone,

This is gonna sound pretty stupid. But then, maybe it'll prevent someone from making a huge mistake later on. In this site, http://www.barnesbullets.com/faq_expander_mz.php , I found the following excerpt.

Will the MZ work in my smokeless muzzleloader?
Barnes tested the Savage 110 ML-II smokeless muzzleloader using Barnes 250gr MZ bullets, with excellent results. Savage recommends fast-burning powders such as XMP 5744, IMR 4227, &VV N110, all of which develop considerably higher pressures than will black powder or Pyrodex. Although the Savage rifle can safely handle the higher pressures, most of the sabots we tested cannot. Excessive pressures cause the sabot to fail, which results in inconsistent velocities, poor accuracy, and even bullet tumbling. Barnes tested several slower-burning powders such as H4198, and RL-7. These two powders gave pressures similar to black powder and Pyrodex, accuracy was sub-MOA, and velocity was excellent. Barnes has not yet conducted sufficient testing to publish starting and maximum loads for these powders, however about 65 grs of either powder appears equivalent to 150 grs of Pyrodex pellets.

What caught my eye particularly was the equivalence the author was concluding in regard to the pressures of the slower burning powders as compared to pyrodex. It would seem that about 65 grains of H4198 would produce equivalent pressures as pyrodex at 150 grains. And to someone inexperienced with muzzleloaders it might be twisted to mean that the 65 grains of H4198 is safe in his muzzleloader rated for 150 grains of pyrodex pellets.

I can find fault particularly in that, in my firearm at least, the bullet might seat below the rifle lands using so little volume of powder. Also, it seems to me, that in seating the bullet, either compaction or crushing of the smokeless powder would affect its burn rate and also pressures.

any comments?
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Old November 3, 2005, 03:19 PM   #2
20cows
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Sounds like a plague to be avoided to me.
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Old November 6, 2005, 01:22 PM   #3
Gatofeo
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A pox on Savage and anyone responsible for creating the abominable muzzleloader that fires smokeless powder.
May their trigger finger get a cancer, among other parts of their body!
The rifle has not been a resounding success, owing to problems with accuracy.
I'm sure many idiots have dumped smokeless powder, either full amounts or as "priming" charges, into their black-powder-only firearms, only to strain or ruin the gun.
Savage's 110 is designed to attract only those hunters who must cheat during muzzleloading season. The black powder season was, universally, introduced so the shooters of primitive firearms did not have to compete against modern firearms.
Inlines and other abominations were designed solely to cheat. I wish that all inlines and modern devices such as scopes, laser sights and glow-in-dark sights were banned from black powder season.
And I hope Savage stops making the 110. It's an insult.
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Old December 21, 2005, 06:57 PM   #4
1SHOT1KILL
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Quote:
A pox on Savage and anyone responsible for creating the abominable muzzleloader that fires smokeless powder.
May their trigger finger get a cancer, among other parts of their body!
Well Gatofeo, that would be me. I wish the same to you my arrogant and ignorrant friend.

It is obvious that you and your buddy 20cows, have absolutely none, notta, zero, knowledge of the Savage 10ML-II, it's conception, it's design, it's capabilties, and it's limitations.

Quote:
I'm sure many idiots have dumped smokeless powder, either full amounts or as "priming" charges, into their black-powder-only firearms, only to strain or ruin the gun.
This is another utterly stupid and ignorrant misconception or lie. Over the past 6 years, Savage and the other muzzleloader manufactures have gone to great lengths to educate the muzzleloader shooting public of the dangers of shooting modern smokeless powders in any other muzzleloader, not explicitly made to shoot smokeless powders. To date they have done a pretty good job of this. But you perhaps have your head to far up your arse, or are to much of a sexual intellectual to bother to learn about something new, before you shoot your mouth off.

Quote:
Savage's 110 is designed to attract only those hunters who must cheat during muzzleloading season. The black powder season was, universally, introduced so the shooters of primitive firearms did not have to compete against modern firearms.
Again, another utterly stupid and ignorrant misconception or lie. A slob hunter is a slob hunter, regardless of whether they use a flintlock, sidelock, a Savage 10ML-II or any other in-line, a bow (recurve or compound), a shotgun, or a rifle. Here in NC, it is called "Muzzleloader" season, not black powder season, it always has been, since it's conception, as in most of the states across the country. It is also perfectly legal to use smokeless powder during our muzzleloader seasons, here in NC, as it is in most states. It has nothing what so ever to do with cheating. That is your twisted opinion.

Back when many of these muzzleloader seasons were first established, deer populations were relatively low, and the number up people who took up muzzleloaders to take advantage of this additional season, were relatively few as well. However, many things have changed over the 30-40 years since may of these season were established, such as deer populations across the country have exploded and the number of people who take advantage of this additional season has grown dramatically as well. The vast majority of these new muzzleloader hunters simply want the the most performance and the most user friendly muzzleloader they can get, to cleanly harvest their intended game in the quickiest and most human manner possible. They could care less about dressing up in buckskins and toting their great-grandfathers flintlock around the woods.

Things have changed in the states DNR offices as well. They are trying to control expanding deer populations and in the face of revenue shortages see the $$$ from these additional muzzleloader seasons as a way to generate sorely needed additional funds. They have to balance their duties and responsibilities, between the needs of the herd and the wants and wishes the hunters. Obviously, they cannot please everyone, as in your case.

I totally support you in your endevours to hunt with any type of muzzleloader you desire. I will not, however, tolerate you forcing your wishes or personal preferrences upon me.

To make such a statement as
Quote:
Inlines and other abominations were designed solely to cheat
is a slap in the face to approxiamtely 90% of the muzzleloader hunters across this great nation. The type of muzzleloader one chooses to carry afield is purely one personal choice and has nothing to do what so ever, with ones ethics, morals, or hunting skills. To call into question ones ethics, morals, or hunting skills, only leads one to in turn question yours.


Injun,
If you truely want more and more importantly accurate imformation, not myths, misconceptions, and lies, try this link. Tons of good straight information on the Savage 10ML-II, as well as other in-lines.
http://modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/index.php
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Old December 21, 2005, 07:43 PM   #5
Old Dragoon
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Lit his tail on fire didn't ya..........

Musta hit a nerve Gatofeo. Huh?
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Old December 21, 2005, 08:25 PM   #6
stevelyn
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Really a non-issue similar to the pointless arguement of crossbow/traditional/compound users in the archery community.

Use what you want as long as it isn't illegal. Your equipment choice dosen't affect me or my life.

Perhaps more people should be a little more tolorant of others choices.

I shoot a .54 GPR w/ patched round ball, but I think the Savage ML-110 would make a great SHTF survival rifle.
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Old December 21, 2005, 10:16 PM   #7
1SHOT1KILL
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Musta hit a nerve Gatofeo. Huh?
Not at all Old Dragoon. It's just that I have zero tolerance for lies, false information, and rumors, whether intentional or not.

Stevelyn, I concur. Regardless of whether it's a flintlock, sidelock, or any in-line, inlcuding the Savage 10ML-II, they ALL have one thing in common. That is they ALL load from the muzzle.

The style and type of ignition is totally ones personal choice. The propellent used is specified by the manufacture, and regulated and enforced by individual states DNR. If it is legal, I have no problems with what ever trips ones trigger. I have no problems at all, sharing the woods and fields with flinters, sidelocks, or in-lines. There is room for them all.
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