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Old November 2, 2005, 04:15 PM   #51
porkskin
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losangeles, you are a man for admitting the shirt bench thing. you should also be proud of that total at your weight. also, as a powerlifter, don't you think the deadlift is a better indicator of overall body strength as virtually every muscle is challenged? just curious. someone with your total poundages opinion is imporatant to this discussion
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Old November 2, 2005, 04:45 PM   #52
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500 pounds and 50 reps? Why carry AR-15s when you could give an M2 .50 caliber a pistol grip and carry that as your primary, and have a CAR-15 as your pistol. Instead of a flak jacket you could use an outward facing claymore as body armor...

As a self destruct feature to prevent capture by the enemy you could keep a ball of plutonium in your ass and initiate a fission reaction by tightening up...

What a crock, to claim that everyone in his unit or whatever could do that.
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Old November 2, 2005, 05:41 PM   #53
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don't you think the deadlift is a better indicator of overall body strength as virtually every muscle is challenged? just curious.
OK, I'll give you that. You're right about that actually b/c the deadlift involves more of the major muscle groups.

When I answered the topic, I was looking for easier activities to measure. Activities that most people have done, or could go and measure.

If you max on the deadlift, it's one of the most body-stress things you can inflict on the body (assuming you're maxing). The back feels like it will snap, guts feel like it's going to spill out of the azzhole, the bar feels like it'll rip your thighs. Most people don't deadlift. And if someone new tries to go and max out the first time, even if they're athletes, something bad will happen -- they will likely get injured. For most people, you can't just set this up as test -- unless you have the technique and training, serious injury will happen if you test your limits.

There's some horrific accidents that can happen with a loaded bar when you're in max mode. Even something like the bench press, the bar doesn't have to fall on you. Your pec muscles can just unroll off the tendon -- sproinggg! --- like a rollaway window blind. It's pretty gross, actually.
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Old November 2, 2005, 06:51 PM   #54
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Lets not forget about that distended rectum thingy that can happen...

Apparently you can strain so hard your intestine can pop out or something like that, and you have no anus left. Also theres the famous incident of a female weightlifter straining so hard fecal matter shoots out and imbeds itself into the floor.

Overall not the healthiest sport. Above a certain point do you really need that much strength anyway? Is it worth not being able to wipe your butt cause your arms are to big.

Rhetorical question.
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Old November 2, 2005, 07:19 PM   #55
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I wound up becoming the detachment p.t. instructor for our three companies up at the fort. For combat, escape and evasion training, we totally ignored weight training. Basic pushups, crunches, jumping jacks, ropes, mountain climbers, different leg and torso lifts, and resistance training, pull ups and rotations and stretches, swimming and shuffling our butts into the dirt is all the conditioning you need. To me, weight training slows you down where it matters. I weight trained, and as a 230lb lineman ran the 40 in only 5.3, but after getting out of the weights make you stronger mindset, the above circuit is what we conditioned to fight and run with. For our combat purposes, it was our thought to forget the high weight low reps, and work out with lighter weight, higher reps if you're going to use weights at all.
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Old November 2, 2005, 08:43 PM   #56
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Model 25:

The NFL star turned soldier was Pat Tillman. He played for the AZ cardinals before becoming a Ranger. He was killed in a firefight while on patrol in Afghanistan by "friendly fire".
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Old November 2, 2005, 08:54 PM   #57
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Apparently you can strain so hard your intestine can pop out or something like that, and you have no anus left. Also theres the famous incident of a female weightlifter straining so hard fecal matter shoots out and imbeds itself into the floor.
Not a pretty sight! Can you imagine the look of the spotter's face -- the spotter who has to stand behind? I'm sure it's not a straight spray directly to the floor. Some of that stuff has to spray straight back, I would think.
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Old November 2, 2005, 11:02 PM   #58
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lmao that's funny
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Old November 2, 2005, 11:31 PM   #59
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in addition you also need mental toughness and endurance. So when you push your body to the peak and its telling you you cant go on.....you can get that extra you need.
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Old November 2, 2005, 11:35 PM   #60
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Incidentally, I'm a certified personal trainer, and if anyone needs advice on strength, conditioning, etc., just PM me. I'm not going to go into a definitive post on the subject in this thread, because once I started, I don't think I would be able to stop typing. It's a VERY broad topic. But seriously, feel free. If I can help, I will.
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Old November 2, 2005, 11:52 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeles
Most people don't deadlift. And if someone new tries to go and max out the first time, even if they're athletes, something bad will happen -- they will likely get injured. For most people, you can't just set this up as test -- unless you have the technique and training, serious injury will happen if you test your limits.
What my buddy and I did, we'd deadlift every other week, and we'd usually do doubles, so that we weren't quite maxing. For instance we'd squat every Monday, but deadlift only every other Friday and give the posterior chain a break. This left benching for the middle of the week. Also we would cycle the poundages (most people fail to make gains because they attempt a max lift every single time they train, rather than cycling their training properly and in a progressive manner).

I think the correlation between deadlifting and training injuries is probably due to the sheer number of people who do it incorrectly.

Occasionally we'd do suspended-chain Good Mornings instead of DLs. But, due to the nature of the exercise, we never went much over 405 lbs.

The Good Morning (GM) is used by a lot of Westside Barbell trainees, and is widely regarded as one of the best exercises for the posterior chain (which is very important in the squat or deadlift). I'm sure Losangeles knows what I'm referring to, but for those who don't know, you take the bar on your shoulders as you would with a squat, but instead of dropping down into a full squat, you keep your knees slightly bent and bring your torso forward until it reaches between a 45 and 70 degree angle from upright, with the back kept straight. (You don't want to bend to the point that your torso is parallel to the floor, but you do want to bend forward a significant amount. Because of the law of individual differences, you have to get a feel for it.) The suspended-chain version of the GM is when you hang the bar from the top if a lifting cage using a pair of chains, and start in the low point of the exercise, so that the eccentric (lowering) portion of the movement occurs after the concentric (lifting) portion, rather than the other way around. Anyway, it's an excellent movement to include among the staple exercises, besides the squat and deadlift and their variants.
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Old November 3, 2005, 12:15 AM   #62
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Back in the day...

Oh yeah sure, back in the day, run this push up that. Now I will have to rely on shot placement and superior fire power.
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Old November 3, 2005, 12:46 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by gdeal
Oh yeah sure, back in the day, run this push up that. Now I will have to rely on shot placement and superior fire power.
I've known one or two people who were very fit in their 70s and 80s. You'll have better coordination, better muscle control, better shot placement, and a better ability to cope with stressful situations if you exercise, regardless of age. Exercise increases your chances of survival, any way you look at it.
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Old November 3, 2005, 01:30 AM   #64
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I am recovering from a torn hip capsule, but before that, i was skating in competitive mens hockey at least twice a week, usually three times a week. doing that I got to be in very good shape cardio wise, minute or minute and half shift, heart rate to 180 or so, sit down and by the time i am to go back out, maybe a minute or so later, heart rate back down to 70 or so. always been strong but never weights strong, the bench always hurt to much.

I used to hang around with two verified former SEALs and ex special forces/green beret. not wanna be's but real live guys who I knew who were coming out or still in when i was back in grad school. the special forces guy was a medic(not sure the actual MOS) but he was going into public health/epidemiology, said that after seeing what he has seen, it was his duty to America to try to prevent what he had seen happen in other countries. Both SEAL guys getting advanced degrees in languages and politics. The physiques were all similar in nature, my wife called it "ropey"
lean to a fault, good muscles tone, durabilty and endurance to the extreme.

to read some guy who says you had to be NFL lineman big, linebacker fast and bulky clearly does not know what he is talking about. Muscles that size are pure calorie burners. Do you really know what the calorie count is for a guy who is 290 and doing that kind of wieght work? I have a friend who's son is playing big ten football, he is 6' 4'' 295, and he eats something like 7000 calories a day to keep the wieght on, and nearly 9000 when he is bulking up before the season.

it is nearly impossible to consider a fighting man who could carry that much calorie intake, and still be fighting fit. All three ofthe guys i know are light for their height. the tallest is about 6' 1'' 185? or so. both the others are 5 10 ish, 160 ish. but tough as nails. all of them. but they seem to be able to hold that wieght in conditions that are adverse. all three were just over 30. the oldest was the medic and he was out, 15 or so years in, he was still getting paid by the service while he got his degree but was then going to work in public sector. i know he was into LONG bike days, double centurys that sort of thing. the other two guys i met thru a buddy who swam in the U pool everyday, he said these guys just did not stop, not smoothest long distance stroke, just thousands and thousands of yards.


I think they exemplify combat fit. ready and able to grind it out for months on nothing but shoe leather and bad water.
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Old November 3, 2005, 01:45 AM   #65
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Ah, gotcha. I thought you meant "back in the day" with a completely different connotation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guntotin' fool
to read some guy who says you had to be NFL lineman big, linebacker fast and bulky clearly does not know what he is talking about. Muscles that size are pure calorie burners. Do you really know what the calorie count is for a guy who is 290 and doing that kind of wieght work? I have a friend who's son is playing big ten football, he is 6' 4'' 295, and he eats something like 7000 calories a day to keep the wieght on, and nearly 9000 when he is bulking up before the season.

it is nearly impossible to consider a fighting man who could carry that much calorie intake, and still be fighting fit. All three ofthe guys i know are light for their height. the tallest is about 6' 1'' 185? or so. both the others are 5 10 ish, 160 ish. but tough as nails. all of them. but they seem to be able to hold that wieght in conditions that are adverse. all three were just over 30. the oldest was the medic and he was out, 15 or so years in, he was still getting paid by the service while he got his degree but was then going to work in public sector. i know he was into LONG bike days, double centurys that sort of thing. the other two guys i met thru a buddy who swam in the U pool everyday, he said these guys just did not stop, not smoothest long distance stroke, just thousands and thousands of yards.
I agree. I'm not one of those who believes getting huge is necessarily the best way to go. If you want to push the upper limits of your ideal range of body weight, or maybe a little beyond, that's up to you, but technique always supercedes mass. Even though mass does play a role in how hard you can hit (the weight class paradigm in boxing, for instance), it does not automatically optimize the mechanics of striking one's opponent properly. If you want to do that, you will have to engage in boxing, grappling, or some kind of martial arts training besides just weight training. All weight training (or aerobic exercise) will do is help you to maximize your body's potential for strength and endurance, which will be significant variables in your performance in combat (but again, this does not address technique). I favor a method of training and nutrition that emphasizes limit strength and sports conditioning. Incidentally, whether you get bigger or not depends solely on your diet. The body has two ways to get stronger, and that is through either hypertrophy (muscle growth) or a greater recruitment of motor neurons (muscle efficiency). In other words: If you're eating a lot of protein and calories when you're on a heavy weight training regime, you'll put on weight, and though most of it will be muscle, not all of it will. If you're eating a normal diet, your body doesn't have as much raw nutrients to metabolize, and the only way to adapt to the training loads is for the body to raise its ability to recruit muscle that is already there.

Regardless, being able to lift heavy doesn't make you Mike Tyson.
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Old November 3, 2005, 03:08 AM   #66
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to read some guy who says you had to be NFL lineman big, linebacker fast and bulky clearly does not know what he is talking about. Muscles that size are pure calorie burners. Do you really know what the calorie count is for a guy who is 290 and doing that kind of wieght work?

I was the one who mentioned football type of numbers, but I'm being misquoted. If you go back to that post, I mentioned fitness associated with the positions of running backs, receivers, safeties, outside linebackers (not inside -- there's a difference). DEFINITELY NOT LINEMEN! I've found that athletic fit guys with a good combination of attributes range in the 190 - 225 lb range. Not 290. Those guys will not come close to running 4.6 40 yd dash, for example, and may have a hard time with the endurance numbers I proposed.

I never mentioned the need for mass, for bulkiness, although I expressed the need for strength and power. As well as endurance and stamina. You will be surprised in that a 400 lb bench press is possible for a guy 190 - 225 lbs without the muscleman mass. Although I didn't approach those bench numbers until later in life, I was always strong but not massive, which had to be since I was boxing during that time (mid-20's). BTW, heavy benchers in the 198 lb division, and to some extent 220 lb division, don't necessarily have that type of mass as the 242ers and above.

In one-on-one close quarters unarmed combat, a 160-lb man is going to get out-physicalled by a 210-lb man of equal fitness and ability. I've found that the 190-225 lb range (give or take) doesn't sacrifice as much in speed (talking about very good athletes here) versus the 160-lb guys, whereas the latter will be sacrificing much in strength and power.

At the same time, the 190-225 lb range (good athletes again) can match up closely in strength to the 290 lb guys (because of diminishing returns on the body mass) and usually blow the bigger guys away with speed and quickness (talking about good athletes, again).

If you don't believe me, watch some wrestlers practicing across different weight divisions (only during practice). Also, see how a middleweight boxer practices against a heavyweight. (Again there will be exceptions.) You will observe that a 200 lb boxer can make a good showing against much heavier heavyweights, and usually manhandles any 165-pounder who wants to spar with him in the gym.

From my experience, the 190-225 lb top level athlete (note - there are always exceptions), who shouldn't be massive and bulky, is in the optimal range to take on the smaller guys and the bigger guys. And remember --- I never said "bulky" and "massive"; but they need to be strong.
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Old November 3, 2005, 03:28 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losangeles
I never mentioned the need for mass, for bulkiness, although I expressed the need for strength and power. As well as endurance and stamina. You will be surprised in that a 400 lb bench press is possible for a guy 190 - 225 lbs without the muscleman mass. Although I didn't approach those bench numbers until later in life, I was always strong but not massive, which had to be since I was boxing during that time (mid-20's). BTW, heavy benchers in the 198 lb division, and to some extent 220 lb division, don't necessarily have that type of mass as the 242ers and above.
Yep, powerlifting is not bodybuilding
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Old November 3, 2005, 08:33 AM   #68
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do any of you remember a skinny brazillian guy named royce (pronounced hoyce)? 6'1'' 175 lbs revolutionized martial arts as we know it by kicking the snot out of 4 men at ufc 1. one of those was ken shamrock who fits right into you guys buffed up combat ideal. he tapped. now the average guy is not royce gracie, but i think overall fitness goals are more realized by brazillian jiu jitsu training (read "very" active grappling) than powerlifting. i figure in the most primal sense of things, being able to take down, outlast, and choke out a 400lb bencher is more imporatant to survival
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Old November 3, 2005, 11:00 AM   #69
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My take is to be prepared for "combat" (anything from someone breaking in the house, to some sort of worldwide event that throws society into chaos). it involves 4 major factors. Strength, Skill, Stamina and Mental toughness. All the exercise in the world will not help if you don't have basic fighting skills or if you are not mentally ready to fight and just quit. I think everyone should at least try some sort of martial arts training in their lifetime. Something is better than charging windmill style at your opponent. In terms of strength and stamina I would go by the US army P/T (the army websites has a chart) requirements as a standard since it is reasonable and flucuates with age. If you try to reach the goal of a 19 year old marine at 50 will get hurt, if you try to bench press as much as an NFL player for the rest of your life you will get hurt. Now I do enjoy lifting weights, but I know this from experience, putting on a lot of mass may look good for some but will slow you down and limit your mobility in a fight. Rambo and Arnold are for the movies, most military guys in real life have mostly lean muscles. I would stick to low weight 3 sets with a lot of reps to get muscle stamina. While the army pushup requirements should be plenty, basic police departments entrance exams say if you are under 40 you should at least be able to bench press your body weight (2 reps). Over 40 WATCH YOUR SHOULDERS
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Old November 3, 2005, 11:20 AM   #70
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I know about Royce Gracie. He's an established fixture around here and The Gracie Academy is a few miles from where I live (http://www.gracieacademy.com/ There's also Machado jiu jitsu, which is Brazilian, nearby, so Brazilian style is popular around here.

I've practiced that style for a half-year at that academy myself to get a flavor. Yes, I'm a powerlifter, but that doesn't meant it's at the exclusion of other things. In my years, I've done Fu Jow Pai (kung fu) for 2 years, boxed over 10 years (competitively), Tae Kwon Do for 2 years, Shotokan for 1 year, wrestled for 1 year.

Believe me, it behooves you to get strength when you grapple. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu included. The instructors don't say don't do powerlifting, don't get strong because our techniques will always let you beat a stronger man. There is nothing wrong with using powerlifting to help you gain that strength.

Somehow, guys here are confusing the issue. That somehow powerlifting is mutually exclusive to other sports, other martial arts. It's not.
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Old November 3, 2005, 11:26 AM   #71
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it involves 4 major factors. Strength, Skill, Stamina and Mental toughness. All the exercise in the world will not help if you don't have basic fighting skills or if you are not mentally ready to fight and just quit. I think everyone should at least try some sort of martial arts training in their lifetime.
You're right mikeboy. Somehow guys are getting fixated on one aspect. Granted, this thread is focused on one subject.

Listen, guys, if you want to talk about overall effectiveness, yeah there are a whole lot of variables. If you don't have some, you can make up for it with others.

Look at the legendary Gurkhas of Nepal, who have distinguished themselves as warriors from the 18th century (and earlier) to today. Their mental aspect and cultural values are the most important. Every male is raised to believe to believe they would rather "die than live like a coward" which they live by. (I'm a khukuri hobbyist -- khukuris are the great machete-like knives of the Gurkhas -- and cool knives to collect!)

Do a Google search on Gurkhas heroics during WWI, WWII, Faulklands, etc. They won't be as strong as the profile I described. They average around 5'5" and average less than 160 lbs. They won't have the strength numbers I describe; not even the speed and power numbers. But they are the warrior badazzes you would want to model.

It takes a lot more than one thing to make a warrior. But for this thread, I contributed my discussion on one aspect -- power. And if you can improve it, and you want to be the best you can be, this information is not going to hurt you.

Last edited by losangeles; November 3, 2005 at 11:58 AM.
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Old November 3, 2005, 11:51 AM   #72
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Porkskin....The guys name was Royce Gracie and I remember those early UFC days too. For eveyone else, the UFC is mixed martial arts fighting with open finger gloves, so you get boxers, wrestler, and karate and Judo experts all fighting each other. The UFC now has weight classes like boxing, but early on it was really mixed with no real weight class, you would see 150 pounders fighting 300 pounders. This Gracie was a small guy taking out guys 2 times his size. Ironically he would win the fights mostly on HIS back with the big guy on top of him. He would rap his body around the guy and suddenly when you think he is a goner...the big muscle bound guy is screaming in pain from some hold (he actually dislocated some shoulders and other joints). The Army Rangers have actually consulted with the Gracie family and are using their style of judo in their hand to hand training. I would recommend everyone to check out the old UFC fights (some video stores still rent them) and the UFC now has fights and a reality show (everyone has a reality show now) on Spike TV. It is definately the closest thing you can get to a real hand to hand fight against skilled opponents.
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Old November 3, 2005, 12:01 PM   #73
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the UFC now has fights and a reality show (everyone has a reality show now) on Spike TV. It is definately the closest thing you can get to a real hand to hand fight against skilled opponents.
You're right. Around here, there's a competition like that in San Pedro, and you can build yourself up to compete in it. You don't need world class credentials or anything like that to compete and test yourself against other men. But you better come prepared.
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Old November 3, 2005, 12:17 PM   #74
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To underscore that it's not any one thing that makes a warrior, check out my recent thread on knifefighting. The guy who won the 2000 Soldier of Fortune knifefighting event weighed 165 lbs. Here's that link again:

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096409923

Hey, there are many factors to be a warrior. With regard to knifefighting, that guy has instinct (and probably a scrappiness) and probably technique (he claims use of Filipino martial arts). Power and strength are but one aspect. But definitely worthy of optimizing for your particular style.
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Old November 5, 2005, 09:06 PM   #75
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Has anyone here ever heard of Lee Chung?
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