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Old October 20, 2005, 11:52 PM   #1
Ace of Spades
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Defense at the Gas Station (among other places)

A few nights ago, some thug hit me with the mirror of his car and said I tried to damage his car after he tried to drive around my car where there wasn't room for a car to go. I had a BM Griptilian on me at the time, but no gun (situation to be rectified).

I need some detailed defense strategies for someone who is in good health, okay physical shape, overweight and around average upper body strength (extremely strong lower body strength and "tree trunk" legs).

First, let's start with what to do when a verbal threat is made - should I yell as loudly as I can "are you threatening me" to draw attention and get witnesses? Suggestions?

Next, if this provokes things, I would need to strike while the perp is getting out of the car, avoiding his car door, presumeably kicked open. It would stand to logic that kicking it back would unbalance him and aid in pinning him in the car so he can't get full purchase on the ground to strike, but if there are detailed strategies and techniques for this, it would certainly be helpful to know these, esp. since one could lose balance trying to kick it back and become a ready target for kicks and blows.

This is about as far as I've got in reassessing the situation. I've thought that pepper spray MIGHT be helpful after this initial attempt at egress by the perp. I also wonder about the use of a knife to disable.

I don't really want to think about using a gun, since I assume the perp is unarmed, just more muscular. This also affects the decision about using a knife.

I hope this is a worthwhile scenario and there will be lots of good input. Please, irrespective of what I might have done to diffuse things or other errors, let's assume that things are going down no matter what.

Legal suggestions about use of force and the continuum of force most welcome. I live in AL and I can use deadly force against assault.
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Old October 21, 2005, 01:49 AM   #2
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In this case getting back in your car and leaving would be your best bet. Call local PD of course. If you stab/shoot an unarmed individual in that situation you will go to jail for murder.(unless of course you are in GENUINE fear for your LIFE, then do what you have to for survival)

Also, "Get away from me" or even "Don't hurt me, please!" will do a lot more for you later on if you end up in court than the somewhat inflammitory "are you threatening me".

Pepper spray is pretty great, it will take down even the largest and most determined aggressor but it simply does not work on some people, with no apparent reason. I would rather get shot.(of course, I'v never been shot, but I have been sprayed it hurts more than you can imagine)

I could inform you about "detailed strategies and techniques" but it will do you ZERO good because you will forget it all when the adrenalin starts flowing. The only way to overcome this is constant repetitive training. In the life threatening situations I have been in, everything happened to fast I had no time to think, I don't even remember doing some of the things I did, they seem incredible to me, even hard to believe. The point is, even if you carry a gun, the only thing that will save you is good, professional training.

P.S. force continuum as it applys to you(not a uniformed cop)=
1. Verbal Commands
2. Unarmed Self Defense
3.OC(pepper) Spray
4. Other NON_DEADLY Force likely to cause serious injury(IE Crowbar to the kneecap)
5.Presentation of Deadly Force(I do not reccomend this without promtly following with 6)
6. Deadly Force(gun, knife, crowbar to the head, boot to the head, ect., anthing that kills the guy PERIOD. If it killed him it was deadly force.)
Keep in mind you should be using ONE level of force ABOVE what your aggressor is using.
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Old October 21, 2005, 05:32 AM   #3
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uhhhhhhhh drive away?
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Old October 21, 2005, 06:31 AM   #4
stephen426
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You had a knife... You don't know if he was armed. You had a potential "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" situation. If you used the knife and you killed him, you are going to jail for man slaughter minimum. If you asked if he was threatening you and then approached him anyways, a DA might even go for the full murder charge. If you didn't pull the knife but kicked the door back to him, you could still face assault and or battery charges if he called the cops.

The law is tough in that way. A pre-emptive strike be comes an offensive strike unless you can prove that it would have been self defense. That seems like a tough one unless you have either a bunch of witnesses say he was going for a weapon or have video footage of it. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of force.

As for your comment:
Quote:
I live in AL and I can use deadly force against assault.
According to http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault
Quote:
assault 1) v. the threat or attempt to strike another, whether successful or not, provided the target is aware of the danger. The assaulter must be reasonably capable of carrying through the attack. In some states if the assault is with a deadly weapon (such as sniping with a rifle), the intended victim does not need to know of the peril. Other state laws distinguish between different degrees (first or second) of assault depending on whether there is actual hitting, injury or just a threat. "Aggravated assault" is an attack connected with the commission of another crime, such as beating a clerk during a robbery. 2) n. the act of committing an assault, as in "there was an assault down on Third Avenue." Assault is both a criminal wrong, for which one may be charged and tried, and civil wrong for which the target may sue for damages due to the assault, including for mental distress.
Now if you were talking about assault with a deadly weapon, then you are justified in using deadly force. The best thing is to call the police and let him be the agressor. If he leaves the scene of the accident, then he is in the wrong.
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Old October 21, 2005, 11:19 AM   #5
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There is a fine line in excercizing caution (getting in your car and driving away - potentially being charged with fleeing the scene of an accident - a crime in a lot of states - not sure about AL) and getting out and talking to the person who caused an accident (potentially escalating a road rage situation).

Common sense is probably your best weapon. If the person is physically imposing to you and is angry. Getting on your cell phone with the windows rolled up and calling the cops is the best bet. If they get out and approach you and you feel threatened, getting out of there is the best bet. Then call the cops and report.

If possible walk to the service station cashier area and report the incident there. Obviously if late at night, safety should be your first concern.

Starting a firefight in the middle of a gas station (where smoking is dangerous) is probably not a good idea.
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Old October 23, 2005, 05:40 PM   #6
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If you leave to avoid a confrontation, and call the cops while you are doing so, you will not be charged with fleeing.
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Old October 23, 2005, 07:27 PM   #7
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Second the yelling part, but only if the situation is at that point. You don't want to turn a 30 second chest-puffer situation into a deadly force encounter.

Nothing wrong with leaving.

Unless you know how to exit a vehicle with a threat exterior to your door, dont. The winner is generally always the person outside the car.

Since in your situation that was you, what would you do then? You realize kicking the door back on him pins his leg between the door and the frame, now what? Or you did a kickback on the door, it nailed him, he stumbles out of the car, now what? Are you going to keep escalating this situation? You've become the aggressor, on a situation where you need not have been, now what?

Nothing wrong with leaving.
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Old October 23, 2005, 09:57 PM   #8
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If you assulted me by kicking my door while I tried to get out and then pulled a knife on me while I was getting up after your assult you'd be toast and I would be justified in doing so.

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Old October 23, 2005, 09:59 PM   #9
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Ace of Spades ~

Avoiding the situation in the first place would be the best and most definitely legal answer. Having rejected that best answer, you're now looking for some specific physical skills.

Okay. Here's the physical skill appropriate for a confrontation between someone in a car and yourself as the pedestrian: when he drives his car into your body, you scream and then start bleeding in a tactical manner. (Oh, you could have run off, through someplace a car couldn't follow, before that point. But that would be avoiding or defusing, and would leave your car to get a paint scratch on it. Never mind.)

But let's say instead the driver gets out of his car. He's decided to beat on you by hand instead of using the deadly weapon he's driving.

At that point, you can use deadly force against him if it's a radically unfair fight -- for instance, if he's got a weapon, or if you're three times his age and crippled. Otherwise, you probably aren't legally justified in pulling a gun or a knife, and will have to figure out how to defuse the situation now since you didn't avoid it in the first place. If you can't defuse it, you're going to have to decide whether to beat on each other now, or draw your weapon and let the legal system beat on you later.

By the way, there are laws against fist fighting, too. Deciding to fight by hand instead of with weapons doesn't mean you'll stay out of court if you help escalate a confrontation to that point. But the penalties are generally lower and you might even avoid being a felon.

Other than learning how to avoid such situations, there's not a lot else that anybody can profitably teach you about physical fighting over the internet.

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Old October 24, 2005, 10:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
If you assulted me by kicking my door while I tried to get out and then pulled a knife on me while I was getting up after your assult you'd be toast and I would be justified in doing so.


Would this be after you assaulted me with a deadly weapon - your car- threatened additional violence, and then got out to make good on that threat - I couldn't assume you were just asking for a Red Cross donation, could I?
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Old October 24, 2005, 11:00 PM   #11
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(Oh, you could have run off, through someplace a car couldn't follow, before that point. But that would be avoiding or defusing, and would leave your car to get a paint scratch on it. Never mind.)
For $500 the deductible cost, I think I'd do what it took to defend my property.

Where exactly would I go that wouldn't leave me vulnerable? I can't leap over his car, nor mine. I don't want to leave my best means of escape behind and I damned sure don't want to turn my back. I'm hearing lots of pat answers here.
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Old October 24, 2005, 11:01 PM   #12
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Ace,

What is the point of this? He was in the wrong, you were on the sidewalk, break out our cell and call the cops. If he moved toward you in a manner that you were in true fear of your life, then whatever happens, happens.

You should have called the cops with tag, make/model of vehicle, and describtion of the person and then went to the ER for being hit and than sued. Hit them in the pocket book, they change their ways.

I'm not sure that I will agree with your actions though. But I wasn't there, so I really can't comment.

Wayne
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Old October 25, 2005, 12:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Where exactly would I go that wouldn't leave me vulnerable?
Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a pat answer. What I'd pictured was that you were standing on the passenger side of your car, which was parked with the driver's side toward the pump. The guy wanted to drive through where you were standing. Your initial description certainly made it sound like a slow motion event, suggesting you had time to move around toward the front of your car, and then perhaps duck between to the other side of the pumps.

If it had happened elsewhere, getting away from the road by dashing between some buildings might have worked. Or perhaps even simply turning and walking the opposite direction from the direction his vehicle was moving.

Not sure I follow your comment about the $500 deductable. Are you saying that was worth more to you than your life?

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Old October 25, 2005, 08:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
A few nights ago, some thug hit me with the mirror of his car and said I tried to damage his car after he tried to drive around my car where there wasn't room for a car to go. I had a BM Griptilian on me at the time, but no gun
I went to the local gas station and this guy was parked poorly leaving little room for others to get by. As I carefully tried to manuver around his vehicle, he must of thought I was comming too close to his vehicle for his liking and he knocks the mirror off my vehicle as I pass. I pull over to check the damage and call the police, this guy starts yelling and shouting at me at the top of his lungs. I quickly try to get out and make it to the safety of the building as he approaches but he kicks my door closed as I'm getting out, knocking me to the ground. I try to get to my feet and he has a knife pulled waiting for me to get up. ( all this on video too) at this point I was only defending myself against some nut and trying to stop his attack on me.

You started out by calling him a thug, then proceeded to say he said you damaged his car, not yelled, screamed etc. This is what normal people do. It sounds like your over reacting.

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Old October 25, 2005, 09:22 AM   #15
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Hey Ace, why would you risk your life, freedom, and the right to own arms to get back at a punk who is either crazy, drunk, high, or all of the above? Its silly, just take his plate number and call the cops, watch how fast he gets arrested. As another poster pointed out, at a gas station there is probably video of the whole thing. I get mad too but learned long ago to control my temper and do things the legal way. In the calm light of day in a courtroom, YOU will sound like the thug and do you really need that hassle??
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Old October 25, 2005, 09:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Where exactly would I go that wouldn't leave me vulnerable?
Gotta agree with Pax here. It sounds as if simply standing between your car and the gas pump to pump gas would have been a good solution. If we aren't seeing your situation correctly, please elaborate.

Quote:
For $500 the deductible cost, I think I'd do what it took to defend my property.
If I could give back the life I have taken for $500 and live as though it never happened, I would burn my ass getting my wallet out. Forcing a confrontation that could turn deadly for $500 is ignorant. Walk or drive away. Money is cheap and easily replacable. Life and limb is not.
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Old October 25, 2005, 10:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier Breath
If I could give back the life I have taken for $500 and live as though it never happened, I would burn my ass getting my wallet out. Forcing a confrontation that could turn deadly for $500 is ignorant. Walk or drive away. Money is cheap and easily replacable. Life and limb is not.
Please make sure you qualify these types of comments. If I walked up to you with a weapon as you were making a withdrawel from the ATM and said "pull out $500 for me too", would you simply oblige? If so, please tell me where you live. I promise I will only ask for $500!

When do we really know if we are going to get shot like dogs even if we comply? That is a question probably none of us will ever be able to answer until it happens. That is why we always try to take control of the situation and not leave our lives hanging in the control of some thug.

I do see your point and I do value human life. I work hard for what I have and I don't think I should part with my belongings because some lazy ass who probably never worked a day in his life takes a fancy to my stuff. If someone physically assaulted me, I would defend myself. I would probably go with non-lethal options first, but would gladly oblige and go all out if the bad guy produced a weapon. I'm sorry but I'm not going to just roll over and give them what they want!
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Old October 25, 2005, 11:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
I'm sorry but I'm not going to just roll over and give them what they want!
I'm not saying roll over. I am saying that I will avoid having to take another life.

If some guy bumps into my car, bumps his car into me, or embezzles $500 from my business, I will not kill him. I will likely not even confront him, because that may lead to my having to kill him. That does not mean the issue will not be addressed.

If you walked up to me with a weapon as I was making a withdrawal from the ATM and said "pull out $500 for me too", it is a different issue, as I would then be defending my life, not my property or some BS code of honor that values itself more than human life.

Does that qualify it enough for you?
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Old October 25, 2005, 11:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierBreath
If some guy bumps into my car, bumps his car into me, or embezzles $500 from my business, I will not kill him. I will likely not even confront him, because that may lead to my having to kill him. That does not mean the issue will not be addressed.
Xavier,
I appreciate the fact that you value human life over material possessions. In Miami, car jackers were intentionally bumping cars and then car jacking the vehicles when the owners got out of the car to inspect the damage. Will I confront a person who bumps into me rather than simply leving? Absolutely. I believe people have to be responsible for their carelessness (if that is what happened). If someone bumps into my person with their vehicle, I sure as hell will confront them. It would probably be along the lines of "Watch where the F*** you are going A**hole". He could seriously injure someone and should be reprimanded for his carelessness. If he gets stupid about it, you can always call the cops.
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Old October 25, 2005, 12:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
It would probably be along the lines of "Watch where the F*** you are going A**hole". He could seriously injure someone and should be reprimanded for his carelessness. If he gets stupid about it, you can always call the cops.
Stephen,
We will likely have to agree to disagree.
My point is, if he gets stupid about it, you will not have time to call the cops. I don't begrudge anyone the right to self defense. I refuse to trade self determination in for self defense, however. When you react in this manner, the other person is in control of you and your future. It's the very person you don't want to have that control.

Remember, when the other person gets stupid, they will not wait for you to call the cops. You must respond to the altercation you have assisted in forming. The cops will arrive though, in 15 minutes, after somebody else calls them.
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Old October 25, 2005, 01:40 PM   #21
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Instigating a confrontation is doing something out of the norm. Calling someone a bad name who bumps your car, or you for that matter, is not out of the norm. It also is not reasonable to conclude that yelling at a moron will likely bring about a need to then use deadly force. If the moron is doubly dumb and takes great offense at being told of their deficiencies after the "genius" hits you or your car then you obviously need to THEN back down but that is not to say you simply have to keep your mouth completely shut in the first place no matter what happens to you or your property just because you are armed. Now, you call the moron a name and threaten to beat him up and he pulls a knife/gun and you pull a gun and shoot him and you are in a world of hurt but only because you threatened violence or took verbal beratement to a point where any reasonable person would conclude you were picking a fight as there is a line where even verbal condemnation could be deemed excessive such that it might be reasonable to believe you were instigating a physical confrontation but that is not the same thing as an initial reaction to someone else's asinine behavior that causes you damage.

A lot of this is subjective, and could well be subjective in a courtroom, but odds are extremely good that you would be OK and not liable criminally (and all this assumes the judge/jury sees things how they really happened) if what you did was in fact within societal norms. You bump ANYONE's car, or ANYONE's person, and odds are you will get an earful and that is not in and of itself that person instigating a violent confrontation. Go bump a judges, or attorneys, or a cops car (or bump them with your car) and I assure you they will likely not keep their mouth shut and say nothing negative to the you just because you might maybe get all violent by getting yelled at for a few seconds. Yelling at someone who does you harm is totally reasonable and normal. It is taking it beyond that, or at least not trying to diffuse it once you realize the moron is looking for a fight, that will get you into trouble. Sadly most people who are so stupid and utterly irresponsible that they bump other people with their car are likely to be the same losers who would take offense at being berated for it.

All that having been said, getting older has mellowed me a lot and I would have likely held my tongue altogether, got the plate number and description of the guy so I could ID him later when he claimed he lent the car to someone else and it wasn't him, then call the cops to try for charges of hit and run or vehicular battery or assault with a deadly weapon, and then call my attorney to bring a civil action for vehicular battery and assault. Being passive/aggressive is probably the best strategy with these mindless dopes we have floating around our society who act the way the original poster described. Still, you do not have to remain totally mute either when you are done wrong just because you are armed, though that is probably best.
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Old October 25, 2005, 02:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
should I yell as loudly as I can "are you threatening me"
only if you pull your shirt up over your head and hold your arms up while challenging your potential attacker. you can then follow up with a statement like 'i am the great cornholio!'

absolutely guaranteed* to thwart any attacker.





* - not an actual guarantee.
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Old October 25, 2005, 03:08 PM   #23
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Some of this sounds like "I am determined to shoot some SOB if he bothers me and nothing anyone can say will talk me out of it."

A great attitude for anyone who wants to spend a lot of time in a small room with a stainless steel toilet.

Jim
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Old October 26, 2005, 07:56 AM   #24
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I think bedula32 has a very good grasp of the point I am trying to make. While I try very hard not to look for trouble, I am not going to simply walk away from a situation in which someone has wronged me because I want to avoid a possible altercation. I will react in a "reasonable" manner and not make any threats to the person.

I always try to assume the best and will approach in a calm manner. I will state the facts and what I want done. For example: "You hit my car. Do you wnt to have a police report taken or do you want to pay me a fair amount for reasonable damages?" If the person does not have enough money on them or the dmage is significant, I will call the police. I am not about to get stuck with the repair bill for someone else's carelessness. Is this potentially confrontational? I guess anything could be confrontational with the wrong people.

I won't escalate but I won't bend over either.

XavierBreath,
I agree to disagree. I thank you for keeping a respectful attitude despite our different points of view. You are definately one of the better TFLers
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Old October 30, 2005, 09:45 PM   #25
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we have a multi billion dollar industry in this country to deal with the situation where someone accidently bumps you or your car. It is called the insurance industry, and everyone in the country who drives is required by law to be a part of that industry. If you are insured, and an "accident" happens, there is no need to get upset at the person who hit you. Accidents happen. We all know that, that is why we have an insurance industry and laws mandating insurance. So, when you are in an accident, you don't have to teach anybody anything, or get mad, or reprimand the guy who hit you. You knew before you ever met this person, that someone could hit you on accident, or you them. All you have to do is exit your car if you are not injured, smile at the guy, inquire if he is hurt or needs help, then exchange insurance information, get a police report, and go on your merry way. File your claim, and work it out like civilized people in a civilized society that has had the foresight to develop an industry to resolve these issues long before you were ever born. The yelling, name calling, and "teaching a lesson to a moron," who may be smarter, better educated, higher paid and a superior citizen to you, is so god damn ignorant that it is hard to believe anyone carrying a gun every day would even have those kinds of thoughts. Jesus Christ. Grow up.
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