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Old October 27, 2005, 07:00 PM   #1
Webleymkv
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45/70

What is the largest game that you guys would reccomend hunting with the 45/70? I am thinking about a double rifle in that caliber to be (hopefully) used on Cape Buffalo someday. I would most likely use a 500 grn FMJ or solid for penetration which is in my understanding second in importance only to marksmanship when hunting dangerous game.
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Old October 27, 2005, 08:04 PM   #2
mete
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A 45-70 is a 45-70 not a 458 Win .While it is a wonderfull cartridge it's not for cape buffalo or other dangerous game .The 45-70- matches some of the old black powder rifles used in Africa but these are all obsolete because they didn't perform all that well.The ones still used are all 20 century cartridges - 416 Rigby, 470, 458 mag etc.
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Old October 27, 2005, 09:24 PM   #3
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This sounds like the sort of question that Marlin would answer if you wrote them a letter. In their catalog they recommend 45/70 for Deer, Black Bear and "Larger Game" but they don't specify which larger game, just show an icon of a moose head. They recommend the .450 Marlin as being an upgrade cartridge.

Personally I wouldn't try to shoot a cape buffalo with anything smaller than a .416 Rigby and then only if I was up in a tree. I'm allergic to being run over by critters as big as a Ford Expedition.
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Old October 28, 2005, 07:13 AM   #4
Long Path
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Rich Lucibella, the owner of this site, has killed no less than three cape buff with .45-70's. He used Garrett and Buffalo Bore loadings. He mentions it in his post here.
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Old October 29, 2005, 10:37 AM   #5
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The Garret bullet loadings say they have better

Penetration than the 458 win mag due to the design of the bullet etc.

We are talking using these types of bullets and the 458 win mag, win loading though.

I believe if you were loading the 458 with the garrets you would have superior results.

The right loading is the key in the 45-70. The correct lever action is also needed. Marlin is the answer in todays new loadings I believe. Longer barrel is a needed item also. A little bit heavier but it holds better (steady) due to the extra effort your body has to adjust to.

Good choice in my opinion.

Harley
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Old October 29, 2005, 06:43 PM   #6
roy reali
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Comparison?

Are not Bison as large if not larger then Cape Buffalo? Wouldn't any Marlin type .45-70 load be superior in performance to any black powder load? Didn't they use the black powder loads for Bison many moons ago?
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Old October 29, 2005, 07:04 PM   #7
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If you are considering the Spartan Gunworks SPR22 in .45-70, Spartan makes a point of stating that the SPR22 is for SAAMI compliant loads only. Garrett's monster loads are well over SAAMI specs (Garrett's SAAMI compliant load is notably hotter than Win/Fed/Rem offerings.)
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Old October 29, 2005, 07:08 PM   #8
mete
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Roy, your question was asked on another forum recently. One poster showed photos of the bone structure of the cape buffalo and bison. The cape buffalo had heavier bones !!
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Old October 29, 2005, 07:14 PM   #9
roy reali
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Hide?

But doesn't a Bison have more hide, or hair if you will? I realize that bone is thicker then leather, but a bullet must go through fur before hitting any bone or organ. I was under the impression that if you take a lion and a bear of similar size, the cat is easier to put down because of a thinner hide.
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Old October 29, 2005, 07:24 PM   #10
Webleymkv
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Quote:
If you are considering the Spartan Gunworks SPR22 in .45-70, Spartan makes a point of stating that the SPR22 is for SAAMI compliant loads only. Garrett's monster loads are well over SAAMI specs (Garrett's SAAMI compliant load is notably hotter than Win/Fed/Rem offerings.)
I was indeed considering the double rifle you mentioned. Is there anyone that makes a SAAMI compliant load using a 500grn or heavier bullet? I'd think that such a load would still be quite formidable for use on dangerous game such a feral hogs and big cats that are somewhat thinner skinned than a Cape Buffalo. Also, what does everyone think of a Gibbs 45/70 on a Lee Enfield action?
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Old October 29, 2005, 07:31 PM   #11
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As has been stated, I've killed Cape Buff with both Buffalo Bore 430 Grain LFN and Garrett 530 Grain Hammerheads. The Garrett's scored 7 for 7 broadside shoot-thrus without apparent deformation. The BB's killed more handily.

If you know the ranges are short (or if you're foolish enough to mount a scope on a dangerous game rifle), the Garretts are the way to go....shoulder shot break-down. For longer ranges, where you're aiming for the Boiler Room, I heartily recommend the Buffalo Bore offerings.

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Old October 29, 2005, 07:44 PM   #12
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"...Are not Bison as large if not larger then Cape Buffalo?..." Um, size doesn't matter. Miss a bison and he'll run away. A buff will track you down and stomp you into the veldt for bothering him.
"...a Gibbs 45/70 on a Lee Enfield action..." You're looking at finding a used one or old stock in one of their distribuor's shops now. Gibbs quit butchering Lee-Enfields some time ago.
The .45-70, out of a good non-lever action rifle, can be loaded to near .458 Win velocities.
The Garrett guys know how to charge don't they. $55 per 20 for hard cast ammo. Geez!
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Old November 1, 2005, 09:32 AM   #13
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My son shot an elk with hot rod handloads usind remington 405 flat nose, they went right thru him like nothing was there, since then I bought a bunch of 300 gr. hollows but have'nt had a chance to try them.The above is correct about the spartan double rifle, I don't think you can hotrod loads for it, the last time I checked with the wholesaler they still hadn't received any of these guns yet.
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Old November 1, 2005, 12:13 PM   #14
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Penetration is great on bone...

But (and I realize many thoughts on this one) I would rather have the energy stop in the animal. No through and through for me. But of course you are not always able to get the perfect shot on some stuff.

Boiler room shots usually go through and through if you are using the big ones.

I believe any No. American Game is going to go down with the 45-70 in factory loads of the hotter variety. But if it was me I would be hand loading my own...Bullets would vary greatly depending on what I was hunting. Soft vs Hard hide...

I was hard casting bullets in the 80's for all types of hand guns and slow moving (under 2000) rifles. Semi Wad cutters and full Wad cutters with Bill Long a friend of mine, we shot quite a bit of these when I was in the Rod and Gun Club.

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Old November 4, 2005, 12:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Spartan makes a point of stating that the SPR22 is for SAAMI compliant loads only....
Thinking of getting a SPR22 myself. If I understand, it is SAAMI 28,000 compliant, with 21000 being the old loads, 28000 the "Marlin", and SAAMI 35000 the "Ruger" loads. I see Garret offers both 28 and 35K loads. Are the BB loads 28K? Anything on this continent that can't be taken with the 28K loads?
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:31 PM   #16
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The .45-70, out of a good non-lever action rifle, can be loaded to near .458 Win velocities.

T. O'Heir,

I keep hearing this and no offense to you sir but it is a load of green steaming hot B.S.

The .45-70 can NOT push a 500gr bullet to anywhere NEAR the velocity that a .458Win can.

It can push a 400 gr bullet to ALMOST the velocity of a 500gr bullet out of a .458 Win mag.

This type of statistical velocity misrepresentation is often the same type of BS we hear during an election year.

This much like saying a .30-30 can be loaded to .300 win mag velocity.

YEAH with a 55gr bullet!

A .45-70 is capable of taking thick skined dangerous game. It is not however a caliber that I would chose to hunt DG with.

To each their own.
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:57 PM   #17
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Hornady is now making ammo with pointed bullets[with rubber tip] which are safe for tubular mags. Now we'll be able to shoot those cape buffalo at 500 yds with no bullet drop !
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Old November 5, 2005, 12:55 AM   #18
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H&H,

You should change your signature--at least until this thread is over...
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Old November 5, 2005, 04:31 PM   #19
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H&H,

He never made any reference to the weight of the bullets

Yes you said so yourself it is possible if you use 400gr not 500gr loads so its not "BS"

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Old November 5, 2005, 07:47 PM   #20
H&H,hunter
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Quote:
He never made any reference to the weight of the bullets

Yes you said so yourself it is possible if you use 400gr not 500gr loads so its not "BS"

Dimitri
Dimitri,

Apples to apples kind of goes with out saying don't you think?

Any of you guys want to buy a bridge?


John,

As far as my tag line, it is in refrence to a bullet of realiable sectional density and weight at a realistic velocity. The .45-70 has none of the above.
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Old November 5, 2005, 08:40 PM   #21
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Hey Greg, sounds like you were on MadDog's side when he was begging R Luci not to go try his stunt on (three) cape buff with a shorty .45-70!

Question: would a .375 have been enough, in your opinion? (I think I know what your preferred caliber would be.)
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Old November 5, 2005, 09:59 PM   #22
H&H,hunter
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Hey Greg, sounds like you were on MadDog's side when he was begging R Luci not to go try his stunt on (three) cape buff with a shorty .45-70!

Question: would a .375 have been enough, in your opinion? (I think I know what your preferred caliber would be.)
Ok guys lets not take this out of context.

I have shot buffalo with a .458Lott and a .470NE I've seen them killed with a .500 Jeff and a .375.

I NEVER said the .45-70 wasn't "enough" for buffalo.

Here is my own quote from above.

Quote:
A .45-70 is capable of taking thick skined dangerous game. It is not however a caliber that I would chose to hunt DG with.
What I said was the .45-70 CAN NOT push a bullet of similar weight anywhere near what a .458Win mag can. THAT is the cold hard truth period end of story.

And yes I do consider the .375H&H adequate for buffalo hunting. It is not however and neither is the .45-70 to be considered a good stopping rifle.

A few examples of what I'm talking about.

A maxed out high pressure Ruger #1 load in a .45-70 starts a 400gr bullet with a S.D. of 272 at just about 1900FPS
The .458 Win mag starts that same 400 gr bullet at just under 2400FPS for a difference of 500FPS

And the .458 Win will start a 500 gr bullet S.D. of .306 at just over 2200FPS still 300 FPS faster than a .45-70's 400 grain load.

And those are maxed out Ruger #1 loads they are somewhat less in a short barreled 1895.

So lets break it down

.45-70 400gr bullet @ 1906FPS S.D. 272/FtLbs =3210
.375H&H 300GR Bullet @ 2550FPS S.D. 305/FtLbs energy =4250
.458 Win 500Gr Bullet @ 2208FPS S.D. .308/ FtLbs energy=5373

The .45-70 with hard cast bullets does have impressive penetration from what I've read. What it doesn't have is the bone crushing smash of a 5000Ft lb + heavy rifle round.

Having been in thick jesse amongst a herd of agitated elephants and having been in the thick stuff with a ****** off wounded buffalo bull I've developed some opinions based on personal experience about what rifle I like to carry during a DG hunt.

there is a HUGE noticable difference in reaction when a buff taskes a hit from a .375 VS a true heavy such as a .458Lott or a 470NE or a .500Jeff. these big rounds actually stun a buff with all that smash. A .375 generally is much less dramatic.

It all really boils down to what you want from your rifle, what you shoot best and personal experience. If you want to shoot a .45-70 on DG I'm not going to try and stop you. I just don't feel warm and fuzzy with that round as a life saver.


In my opinon the .375H&H is a better choice for buffalo hunting than a .45-70

The .45-70 is to the .458Win as the .30-30 is to the .30-06. Both are capable of taking the same types of game. One just gives you more than the other.
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Old November 5, 2005, 10:36 PM   #23
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As far as my tag line, it is in refrence to a bullet of realiable sectional density and weight at a realistic velocity. The .45-70 has none of the above.
Well, I was really intending my comment to be more humorous than argumentative...

But I'll respond anyway. Garrett sells a 540gr .45/70 load and there are at least a couple of suppliers loading 500gr 45/70 ammo. I didn't look very hard, but out of the 4 or so ammo makers I checked, I didn't find any .458 Win Mag factory loadings with bullets heavier than 510gr.

So that means that the .45/70 can match the .458 in diameter, bullet weight and sectional density. That leaves only velocity as the primary difference.

Which means if you're going to decry the .45/70 and praise the .458 you need to change your signature (or at least add a caveat.)

I know, I know, we're talking about 400fps or so of velocity difference, but you have to admit, the discussion IS a bit ironic in view of your signature line.

Hey, BTW, didn't you post a review of various dangerous game stopping rifles sometime back? I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it. IIRC, you went through the list including the CZ rifles and mentioned the common faults you had seen in them over the years. I can't remember your ding on the CZ big-bores... I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me to the thread, or just repeat your comment about the CZ rifles. Thanks!

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Old November 5, 2005, 10:39 PM   #24
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H&H,

I understand what your saying apples to apples.

But sometimes things arnt always the same. Look at the debates about the 270 and the 30-06 they normally go to the "highest" senable weight and then compare there. So there is quite a big of weight difference. Why they do that I dont know but they do.

Anyways not trying to start a argument. Personally the 45-70 isnt a bullet I ever used and probrobly will never use. I am gonna stick to the 30-06 as it can deal with anything on this side of the world. If it was really Dangours game then I will go out and get myself a 375 Remington Ultra Mag That has enough energy to take pretty much anything doesnt it ?? Its been a while since I have seen any data but I think it has like 5,000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle with Remington Factory loads

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Old November 5, 2005, 10:55 PM   #25
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John,

That was probably on THR where I posted that thing on CZ'z and Rugers and such.

The problem with the really heavy 500+ grain bullets in the .45-70 is velocity. they are punching those rounds out at like 1600FPS. Pretty much back to old BPE rounds.

The old adage of 500gr at 2150 and up still stands true in my opinion.

Two things I don't like about the CZ's functionability.

All of the heavy caliber CZ's I've seen start to crack out around the mag box and in through the receiver on the pistol grip with time. They need to be bedded and cross bolted.

And I Hate the new safety they've put on these rifles rifles they have taken the sear block, backwards safety off, and put on a trigger block safety that is known to slide to the on position during recoil. Effectively stopping the rifle and possibly ending your short sweet life in a bad situation.

They are still a good buy for the money and can be made functional with very little time and money.
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