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Old November 4, 2005, 08:11 AM   #26
Windjammer
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And for Heavens sake, DON'T LET ANYONE ON A FORUM KNOW THAT YOU USE A MAGNUM ON DEER!
I use a magnum a lot to deer hunt with ( 357 & 44 )
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Old November 4, 2005, 09:58 AM   #27
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Of course you need a .30-.378 to kill a whitetail deer weighing less than 100 pounds. And you need a 20mm cannon to kill an elk. It's just rumor that all those deer and elk were killed by puny .30-06's, .308's, .30-30's, 7 mm's, .270's, .257's, .243 and 6mm's, etc. before the mighty .30/.378 came along to protect us from such behemoth deer.
Actually, as long as the cartridge/gun is adequate, it is each person's choice as to the weapon and ammunition used. Some choices just do border on the excessive and thus the good natured ribbing as seen here. Go for it!

Good shooting and be safe.
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:22 AM   #28
AJ Peacock
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Here is your answer - Why use a 30-378 for deer.

Lets compare the .308, 30-06 and 30-378 using a 190gr Hornady BTSP with a BC of .491. Hornady recommends this round for a muzzle velocity range of 2200-3300, so this is a great bullet to use for comparison.

Muzzle velocity
.308 2000-2400 fps
.30-06 2200-2700 fps
30-378 2700-3200 fps

200yds
.308 1715-2080 fps
.30-06 1895-2350 fps
30-378 2350-2818 fps

400yds
.308 1462-1787
.30-06 1622-2041
30-378 2041-2467

600yds
.308 1254-1525
.30-06 1383-1751
30-378 1751-2142

So, if using a .308 from the muzzle to 200yds is reasonable, then using a .30-06 from 200yds-400yds is EXACTLY the same lethality. And using a 30-378 from 400yds to 600yds has EXACTLY the same lethality. (assuming the same shot location)

Notice that the energy the 30-378 has at 600yds is less than the muzzle of a .308.


Using a 250yd zero, a 30-378 has 17" less drop at 400yds, and 66" less drop at 600yds than a 308, hmmm?

FWIW, my new deer rifle will have 12" less drop at 600yds than the 30-378!

What would be your choice if you where sitting on the edge of a 400 acre beanfield?

So the answer is: Because the hunter wants to use a round that is accurate, lethal and appropriate to the situation.

AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:40 AM   #29
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Of course you need a 190 gr .30 caliber bullet to kill a little white tail deer. Those puny 150, 165 grain bullets just bounce off deer and have for years. Hey, we're just having some good natured fun. Good luck with your hunting.

AJ,
I don't think your 'sarcasm off' switch is working.

Good shooting and be safe.
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:54 AM   #30
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LHB1, Yeah I know, I need to lubricate that switch

I could have used any of the bullets for comparison, and it would have shown very similar results.

I've used all types of firearms for whitetails (.357, 50cal Muzzle loader, 12ga, .243, 7mm mag), several different ones for Muleys (30-30,.243, .270, 7mm mag) , 7mm for Elk.

My default go in the woods rifle is a 7mm Rem Mag. I've shot Muley's from 7yds to 820yds with that rifle (both one shot kills) and almost every distance in between. Same with Whitetails and Elk. When I know the range will be close (150yds or less) and its REALLY cold (so I will be wearing HEAVY clothing), I'll use my .243 with the short stock (it fits better then). When I'm hunting in a swamp only, I'll grab a handgun or shotgun.

But my default go in the woods rifle is still the 7mm Rem Mag. Why? Because I have found (after 3-4 dozen big game animals), that it is appropriate, capable and efficient.

I even have different loads for the 7mm mag, for use in tight quarters (low velocity 139gr bullet). This load turns the 7mm into a less than .308 w/re to muzzle energy! But normally I use the 162gr at 3000fps+


Good luck with your hunting too!

AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 12:00 PM   #31
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Aj

Quote:
So, if using a .308 from the muzzle to 200yds is reasonable, then using a .30-06 from 200yds-400yds is EXACTLY the same lethality. And using a 30-378 from 400yds to 600yds has EXACTLY the same lethality
I think you just proved what we have been discussing. Out to 200yds anything more than a .308 is excessive. The higher velocity rounds give you no advance under 200 yds..

The reason I use 200yds is because I have seen data for NC where over 98% of the deer taken with a rifle was under 200 yrd and a large percentage was under 150 yds. I have heard that the national numbers are similar.

Here in NC if you have 400 - 600 acre field there will at lease two stands positioned to allow safe zone of fire from both stands.

I did not know the land you hunt but here in NC, 400 - 600 yd shots are rare.

But if you enjoy the bang and recoil of your 30-378 then go for it. But under 200yds its excessive for deer.

I think the original point of the thread was if the majority of people who use big guns would just back it down a little they would be better shots.
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Old November 4, 2005, 12:16 PM   #32
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What would be your choice if you where sitting on the edge of a 400 acre beanfield?
I'd use the .308 Winchester .

Why? Because to make that 400 yard shot, I'll need to have practiced -- and I mean a lot of practice. The recoil from the .308 is not too bad, which means I can shoot comfortably at the range and practice a lot for those long shots. Lethal enough? I think the .308 will do just fine, even at 400 yards.
But as a practical matter, I doubt that I would take the 400 yard shot with any caliber. To me, 400 yards is a really long shot, and I would probably pass it up and hope that the deer (or other deer in the area) would move in closer.

Quote:
Using a 250yd zero, a 30-378 has 17" less drop at 400yds, and 66" less drop at 600yds than a 308
I was not able to find a trajectory table for a .30-378 on Hornady's website. I'd like to see the numbers for both calibers at 400 yards.

That .30-378 does sound like a hella-strong round! If you can shoot it well, use it!
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Old November 4, 2005, 12:18 PM   #33
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The reason I use 200yds is because I have seen data for NC where over 98% of the deer taken with a rifle was under 200 yrd and a large percentage was under 150 yds. I have heard that the national numbers are similar.
I agree. Regardless of what round you use, if the bullet completely passes through the animal, you 'wasted' extra energy on the backstop. When I shoot a whitetail in the head at 70 yds, it really doesn't matter if I use a 7mm mag, .243, 30-30 etc.

Thats the point. for close range, the heavy gun is just as good as a light gun (it just 'wastes' a little more energy on the backstop). For long distance, the heavy gun is Superior to the light gun.

Regardless of the firearm, the hunter has the responsibility to shoot it well.

If hunters had to pass 'my' test to get a license, there would be a LOT less hunters out there (regardless of which gun they were using).

Do you disagree with any of the following?

1) The caliber is SIGNIFICANTLY less important than the skill of the shooter.

2) The caliber required is dependent more on the situation (range, wind, cover, backstop) than on the animal.

3) TOO MUCH gun is usually better than TOO LITTLE. (w/re to morally harvesting a game animal)

??

AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 12:38 PM   #34
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Fremmer wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
What would be your choice if you where sitting on the edge of a 400 acre beanfield?
I'd use the .308 Winchester .

Why? Because to make that 400 yard shot, I'll need to have practiced -- and I mean a lot of practice. The recoil from the .308 is not too bad, which means I can shoot comfortably at the range and practice a lot for those long shots. Lethal enough? I think the .308 will do just fine, even at 400 yards.
But as a practical matter, I doubt that I would take the 400 yard shot with any caliber. To me, 400 yards is a really long shot, and I would probably pass it up and hope that the deer (or other deer in the area) would move in closer.
A 400 acre beanfield will present shots of 1000yds.

Quote:
I was not able to find a trajectory table for a .30-378 on Hornady's website. I'd like to see the numbers for both calibers at 400 yards.
I used a ballistic program to get the numbers.
400yds
.308 1462-1787 fps --- Muzzle velocity = 2000-2400fps
.30-06 1622-2041 fps --- Muzzle velocity = 2200-2700fps
30-378 2041-2467 fps --- Muzzle velocity = 2700-3200fps

At 400 yds with a 250yd zero
.308 w/ 2400fps muzzle will drop 23.98"
30-06 w/2700fps muzzle will drop 18.5"
30-378 w/3200fps muzzle will drop 12.5"

But at 100 yds,
.308 2400fps will be 4.5" high so you'd probably sight in at shorter distance.
30-06 2700fps will be 3.3" high
30-378 3200fps will be only 2.1" high

So even up close, the flatter firearm will help you make hard shots (ie. small openings etc.).


Quote:
That .30-378 does sound like a hella-strong round! If you can shoot it well, use it!
It is, I like the 7mm wildcats better and I don't have a 30-378. Its a great Long Range cartridge. Not the best IMHO, but very good.

Hope that is what you where looking for.

AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 01:41 PM   #35
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That was the info I was looking for. It sounds like an interesting round. It would probably rip my shoulder off, but I still wouldn't pass up an opportunity to try it out!

Let me know if you ever want a huntin' buddy. I'll shoot the close-range deer, and you can snipe 'em way out! It would probably be a pretty good system.

P.S. You outta try the .257 Weatherby Mag. Talk about flat shootin'! Only disadvantage would be that its not as heavy as that .30-378 round, so the wind would move it a bit more on those really long shots.
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Old November 4, 2005, 01:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
1) The caliber is SIGNIFICANTLY less important than the skill of the shooter.
Shot placement is everything

Quote:
2) The caliber required is dependent more on the situation (range, wind, cover, backstop) than on the animal.
I think knowledge of the game being pursued dedicates the minimum caliber required for clean kills. Environment being hunted will dedicate an adjustment to the caliber required, i.e. hunting deer in a peanut field on a clam day with a .243 , a 200yrd shot is fine but if the wind is blowing 5 - 10 mph a bigger , heavier bullet is required ( maybe 30-378).

On the other hand no matter how calm, I would not ( intentionally) use a .243 on a bear.

Quote:
3) TOO MUCH gun is usually better than TOO LITTLE. (w/re to morally harvesting a game animal)
Kinda goes back to #2 if you have knowledge of the game your hunting, you should not have too little gun.

No matter what caliber or what game your hunting there are bad shots and it takes knowledge/maturity or what ever you want to call it, to known when to shot and when not
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Old November 4, 2005, 01:59 PM   #37
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had a guy stop by the shop last weekend, i've known the guy a long time, never knew he was interested in guns. he wants to start hunting moose and bear and other big critters, and is dead set on a .375 ultra mag.

first question in my mind: what can that do that the .338 winmag cant? or .300 winmag? or even .375h&h? not to mention that was the questions WA and everyone else in the shop wanted answered as well?

but the guys deadset on it, read a lot of material about it, and he has a lot of 'head knowledge' about various loads for it. we'll order the gun for him, its his money.
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Old November 4, 2005, 02:28 PM   #38
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Spacemanspiff,

He's new to shooting?

See if you can video him while he sights it in!

I'd pay to see it!


AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 02:35 PM   #39
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not 'new', but a novice to shooting hunting rifles. he was enlisted fresh out of high school (forget which branch), and he was trained as a m60 gunner.

he did hem and haw about putting a muzzle brake on the .375ultra mag. the guy is a freaking monster, i wonder if he thinks his build will handle the recoil unbraked?
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Old November 4, 2005, 03:34 PM   #40
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Try These Numbers

So, some of you are into numbers and ballistics. Here are some numbers for you to consider.

1330, 1168, 1055, 977

Those velocity figures are for muzzle, 100, 200, and 300 yards. Pretty wimpy numbers. They hardly even compare to a .308 Winchester let alone any of the .300 Super Duper Magnums.

Those numbers are blackpowder velocities for the .45-70. According to some folks, it would make this round worthless for deer. Yet, these numbers are for a cartridge that was used to drop animals that were in the one ton weight range. That would be the Bison. I guess some folks must be running into 3,000 pound deer.
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Old November 4, 2005, 04:23 PM   #41
AJ Peacock
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Yep, the 45-70 will kill it if you can hit it.

Here are some numbers for your 45-70, 300gr bullet at 1330 muzzle velocity.

Sighted in at 100yds

2.2 inches high at 50yds
0.0 at 100yds
9" Low at 150yds
26" Low at 200yds
51.5" Low at 250yds
86" Low at 300yds
131" Low at 350yds
187" Low at 400yds Only 418 FtLbs energy

45-70 and 400yds is well over a second in travel time! (.4sec for 7mmRemMag)

86" is more than 7 feet at just 300yds!
187" is more than 15 feet at 400yds!

Maybe thats why they shot at Buffalo HERDS! and then just picked up what was dead!


I killed a whitetail with a 6000lb Dodge pickup going only 88ft/sec (but the range was zero!)

AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 04:32 PM   #42
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Well, I recently bought the last .338 Lapua Magnum for a project from an allotment in Louisiana. It was the last one in a large allotment, because the others had been snapped up by local whitetail owners!

My, my. 250 gr bullets at 3100 fps, on a 150 lb whitetail, in a state that can't have a whole lot of long shots. I asked why these guys were using it, and the dealer said, "cuz they're young, stupid, and they hate to track wounded animals."

I guess that works.
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Old November 4, 2005, 05:42 PM   #43
roy reali
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1000 Yard Matches

Their are guys that shoot one thousand yard matches with blackpowder, .45-70 loads. I guess they just aim at all the paper targets and hope they hit the right one.

The Buffalo Hunters did one thing, shoot alot. They had to, that was their income. I have shot reproduction .45-70's with blackpowder cartridges. While the recoil was stout, it was in no way comparable to any of those ultra mags in a typical hunting wieght rifle. I could shoot one of those BPC rifles often as far as recoil comfort goes. I don't think I could shoot all day with an ultra super duper mag. all day without developing a flinch.

Also, the hunters back then were not hung up on numbers and ballistics. They used what worked, period. Gun magazines and gun writers did not have as much influence as they do now.
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Old November 4, 2005, 06:02 PM   #44
AJ Peacock
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Quote:
Their are guys that shoot one thousand yard matches with blackpowder, .45-70 loads.
Yep, and their are guys that think just because it says Magnum on the side, its too big


Quote:
I guess they just aim at all the paper targets and hope they hit the right one.
Nope, they have it sighted in for 1000yds, about 200 MOA over 100yds, a big heavy consistent bullet will hit pretty much the same each time. BUT, tell them its 1000yds and have the targets at 950yds and they will overshoot the target by 25 FEET! So, how did they tell how far the Bison were? Laser Range Finders? No, they normally shot them at close range (200yds or so).

I like the 45-70, 45-90, 45-110, 50-110 .... They are fine antique rounds that are 'consistent', but they certainly wouldn't be appropriate for random distance hunting over about 150yds.

AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 06:27 PM   #45
roy reali
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It Can Be Too Big

Some folks can handle the recoil of any round. But the fact is, many can not. Many shooters that have flinches do not even realize it.

I have seen more than one rookie go through several boxes of factory ammo in one of their new, super mag rifles, and not even be close to having it sighted in. They do have a flinch.

I also see some guys at the range week in and week out. Most of them are shooting standard, nonmagnum cartridges. The magnum maniacs are never seen until a week before that start of next years hunting season. My theory is, that the recoil experience was enough for one year. They figure just the velocity of thier round will blow a deer over even if it doesn't connect with hide.
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Old November 4, 2005, 07:20 PM   #46
AJ Peacock
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Yep, its unfortunate that nobody helps them out and gets them to shoot some lighter bullets in their Magnums. A light projectile from a 300Win Mag can have less recoil than a heavy/hot 308.

I shoot 20k+- rounds/year and less than a dozen from my Magnums.

Why would I intentionally burn the barrel out on a hunting rifle when I have so many other 'range guns'?

I also believe that "trigger time" is "trigger time".

Later,
AJ
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Old November 4, 2005, 07:33 PM   #47
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I agree with the light bullets out of the mags. I shoot 140gr Combined Technology Ballistic Tips out of my 7STW at close to 3500fps. The recoil is less than most 30-06 loadings.

I later put a brake on it and it now kicks like a .243. The brake wasn't to help any problem with recoil on my part, but with a scope with a 60mm objective you will tear up mounts due to the weight. It ate Leopold STD rings like candy.

I really do like to shoot heavy recoiling guns and mastering a long range heavy hitter is part of the hunting challenge. I sighted in a .375 Ultra mag for a friend going on an African trip and the gun would torque counter clockwise with every shot. I also ran 5 shots out of a .460 Weatherby in a T-shirt and it was a blast. I was shooting bowling pins offhand at 40 yards with the express sights so I guess I wasn't flinching that bad. I'm 5'9" and 165lbs so I find recoil just a matter of focus for most healthy people.
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Old November 4, 2005, 10:36 PM   #48
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i realy hope that guy who is buying the 375RUM has shot alot becuase i shoot big guns alot up to a 505 gibbs and I hate everything about the 375rum
it just hurts it made my eyes bloodshot after 2 rounds
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:06 PM   #49
roy reali
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Guide Experience

Once a year, we have a sportsman's exposition here. Basically, it is a show with booths manned by a bunch of outfitters and hunting guides. The majority of them are from the western states. Most of them feature elk hunts.

I go every year. I enjoy talking to these outfitters. I often pick their brains about which cartridges they feel are adequte for elk. Ninety percent of the time, the first answer is the .30-06. I've asked them about the magnums. More then one of them has rolled his eyes at that. They become very nervous when Joe Blow hunter shows up at the elk camp with some new fangled super mag. They relax when some hunter shows up with an '06, or similar caliber.
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Old November 4, 2005, 11:56 PM   #50
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Ill take a 45-70 marlin guide gun ,in the brush with iron sites before id use a 12 gauge with slugs.
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