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Old October 24, 2005, 03:21 PM   #1
roy reali
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Why????????????? (30-378 for deer hunting)

I went to the range today. I did alright. There was a gentleman with a new rifle. He was trying to zero it in for deer hunting. He had a box of factory ammo. He also had a flinch going.

He had a flinch because he was shooting a Weatherby in 30-378.

What is going on? What kind of deer do these folks expect to run into, espically here in California? There are wolves in Alaska that outweigh our deer. A decent size dog could just about retrieve one. Are the magazine writers so good as to have duped a bunch of deer hunyers into thinking that their prey in armour coated?

Do other parts of the country have this same thing going on?
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Old October 24, 2005, 04:44 PM   #2
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All the time.

Yes it goes on. For a variety of reasons. I have an otherwise sensible friend who thinks he NEEDS a .300 Wby for whitetails. He constantly complains about the cost of the ammo, but won't reload. He never hunts elk, moose, nor great bears, will not be going to Africa anytime soon. Just whitetail deer, in rather brushy country at that, so never a shot at anything like 100yd.

Why this sort of thing occurs I really don't know. Hype from a gun store employee? Part of the American "bigger is better" thing? (shrug)
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Old October 24, 2005, 07:57 PM   #3
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The last time I was at the outdoor shooting range. A guy and his girlfriend walked up; they were apparently there for a trap shoot, but he wanted to zero his new Kimber .270 wsm for an upcoming hunting trip. By the way, I was impressed with the fit and finish of the Kimber; it was a nice rifle. It was topped with a new Zeiss scope.

He wanted my help to adjust the scope knobs. I helped him out; he was a nice guy. He even let me shoot the new rifle. Like I said, it was nice. Recoil was slightly more than a 7mm Rem mag. Lots of boom and flash, though. And that light rifle really moved the rifle rest -- it seemed to almost jump off the the bench compared to my .308.

So anyway, he wants to give his girlfriend, who has never shot a centerfire rifle, a quick shooting lesson. She was just a petite little thing, to boot. She carefully aims, and takes a shot. THWAK! The scope recoils into the right lens of her shooting glasses. She stands up and backs away, but he convinces her to try again. THWAK! Another lens-butt from the scope.

She declined to try again.
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Old October 24, 2005, 09:03 PM   #4
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I was twelve years old doing the panicked pre opening day deer season thing with dad at the local range. Boom boom boom up and down the line, and then KABOOM.... Everyone stopped and looked and I walked down to see what it was. Remington 7m Mag. I saved and got one when I was seventeen. Why? It was loud and powerful. After I grew up, I've hunted with a 30-30 for years, and just switched to a 270 this past week. BTW, I traded that nice short Weatherby carbine for a 98Mauser that didn't kick. It's everywhere.
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Old October 24, 2005, 09:25 PM   #5
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Wow

Really you do need a really big gun for whitetails. 375H&H mag and 500 Nitro are fine choices. Why you don't even need a drag rope after the shot--just a small game bag and a plastic scoop to pick up smaller pieces
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Old October 24, 2005, 09:44 PM   #6
roy reali
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Brainwashing

I just believe gun writers have brain washed the average shooter. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I witnessed a .22LR drop animals approaching the half ton mark. Granted, the shooting was done under the most ideal circumstances, it still was done. Now go pick up a .22 shell. That tiny thing can kill a large steer instantly. Now pick up a .30-30 cartridge and compare it to the rimfire round. There is really no comparison.

With that in mind, some so called gun experts would have your believe that the .30-30 is a marginal deer cartridge. If the deer is more then a couple of yards away, you are out of luck. I think that some poor folks are buying into all the hyper-magnum hype.
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Old October 25, 2005, 06:01 PM   #7
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Anyone ever shot a cat with a howitzer? (PETA: Bite me.)

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Old October 26, 2005, 03:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
the .30-30 is a marginal deer cartridge. If the deer is more then a couple of yards away, you are out of luck.
If it's less than a couple of yards away, I'd use my sharp pointy stick.
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Old October 26, 2005, 07:01 PM   #9
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I actually like the front shoulders from my animals. Good roasts!
Seriously though if you are shooting large game(bear, elk, moose) at long range the 300 WSM is my choice as I have one and that I trust it(meaning me and my ability with it ) to about 400-500 yds to put what I am shooting at down now.
For my other shooting White tail, I go with the 270 or '06.
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Old October 27, 2005, 09:37 PM   #10
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You see a lot of guys walking around the gun shows this time of year trying to sell nearly new magnum rifles of various flavors. I wonder why?



Quote:
I just believe gun writers have brain washed the average shooter.
Actually not too long ago I read a barber shop copy of tiehr F&S or Outdoor Life and the gun writer was commenting to my best recollection about how one of the .270 magnums was getting all of 25-50 FPS more than the .270. YAWN.
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Old October 28, 2005, 07:02 AM   #11
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About 9 or 10 years ago I got a bad case of the "Gotta Haves" for the Remington Sendero rifle. The point of the rifle is that it is a long-range hunting rifle for terrain where the shots are typically longer. The land that I hunted at that time was covered with a lot of brush, and "senderos" (long paths) had been pushed through the brush with D7 Cats. Shots on deer might appear down the senderos at 20 yards or 500 yards. Flat-shooting cartridges really helped with shots of such a wide variety. For me, the only option that I seriously considered in the Sendero for such hunting was the .300 Win Mag, not because N. TX whitetail deer are so hard to kill, but because it could launch a 165g or 180 bullet on such a stable long-range trajectory and not suffer much from wind or drop. (And no, I really never planned on taking a 500 yard shot, unless I had perfect range known and no wind and a perfect rest. I never did.)

Some guys want a laser.

Funny thing is, these days, I hunt a lot more with an iron-sighted .35 Whelen or an old .243.



BTW, I updated the title of this thread to make it less ambiguous than simply "Why????"
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Old October 28, 2005, 08:54 AM   #12
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One problem with all this argument about Maggioes vs. Standards is that times have changed. For instance, the "bean field rifle" concept has entered into the equation, where the shooter knows that long shots will be the norm. And, there seems to be more wide-open-country hunting of mule deer. It makes sense to use a rifle that will give a reliable kill at, say, 400 or 500 yards.

Trouble is, most folks are hunting in the mix of terrain/vegetation where the traditional 50-yard to 200-yard shot is the most common. Unfortunately, they're swayed by articles showing those beautiful "way over yonder" rifles, and they hit the gunstore all "eat up with the I want".

Young guys make a jump from .22s to some Wonderthumper, and are shocked by the difference in recoil. They're stuck with the deal for a while until the money situation allows a change. Old Farts finally can afford "a really decent rifle" and then discover that their rotator cuffs and arthritic shoulders make Maggie an unattractive crone instead of a beauty queen.

But, it all provides material for discussion on the Internet.

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Old October 28, 2005, 10:08 AM   #13
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I think what you are seeing are guys who

1.) Do not understand the game their hunting

2.) Do not understand a thing about ballistics

3.) They are not interested in putting any effort forward to understanding anything about item 1 & 2. They just want the biggest, baddest gun they can afford, so they can kill anything that walks.


Last edited by Windjammer; October 28, 2005 at 10:39 AM.
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Old October 28, 2005, 11:31 AM   #14
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Hell, why do people hunt ducks, geese and turkey with a 12ga? A .20ga has a lot less recoil and will kill em' just as well. Maybe people feel the need to extend their range with a 12ga, when a good marksman can do the job with a 20ga.. How many wounded geese fly off injured because some over confident 12ga shooting "flincher" took a shot when the goose was out of range? Or what about the 12ga shooter who flinches when the goose was in range, and blew the goose's beak or foot off instead of having a clean kill?

But you never hear the 20ga crowd talk smack against people who shoot a 12ga..

Why do some deer hunters use a .30-06 when a .30-30 will kill deer with a lot less recoil? Probably because the 06 is balllistically superior, likewise a .300 RUM will blow the doors off the old crusty .30-06.

The only downside is the cost of ammo, barrel life and for some, recoil. A small price to pay for using a flat shooting, hard hitting 500 yd deer killing machine.

I'll be hunting whitetails and coyotes next month with a Rem 700 chambered in .300 RUM. Why? Because this is America by Golly.

I like a gun that gives me positive feedback. I don't mind recoil, I don't flinch, and muzzle blast makes shooting more fun. For me, I like to announce to all the hunters stationed way off yonder, that I was the one getting the shot.

During a hunt, you hear a distant boom, and everybody is yacking back and forth on the GMRS radio trying to figure out who the lucky person was. Shooting a .300 RUM, everybody knows who it is because it's the loudest gun in the county.

I do feel that people who shoot magnums need to be competant marksmen. They should be able to shoot prone, sitting and standing, as well as putting them in the 10 ring at the bench. Is a .300 RUM fun to shoot at the bench? Not really. My shoulder starts to sting after 10 rds, however I still refuse to let it rattle my nerves enough to make me flinch. If I want to punch paper, I'll simply break out my boring .308

Unfortunately a lot of newbies ( I assume they are newbies because they can't shoot very well ) show up at gun ranges with magnums, and make guys like me look bad.

My .300 RUM will kill whitetails every bit a good as a .30-06. The whitetail sure can't tell the difference.
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Old October 28, 2005, 12:10 PM   #15
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Boom!

Quail Fat--Well, you acknowledge that you don't NEED the .300 RUM; you don't mind the exta expense, and you are willing to put up with the shortened bbl life and extra recoil.

Most importantly, you are willing to practice enough to be a competent marksman with the thing.

Therefore, I have no quarrel with you. This is indeed America (thank God) and if you choose to use it, and practice up with it so as to ensure a humane kill, no one can nay-say you.

I agree that those who do NOT practice up with their weapons, be they a .300 RUM, a .458 Lott, or a little .243, or anything in between, are not prepared to do a humane kill. Those PEOPLE, not their weapons, are to be looked down our collective nose at.
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Old October 28, 2005, 12:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Hell, why do people hunt ducks, geese and turkey with a 12ga? A .20ga has a lot less recoil and will kill em' just as well. Maybe people feel the need to extend their range with a 12ga, when a good marksman can do the job with a 20ga.. How many wounded geese fly off injured because some over confident 12ga shooting "flincher" took a shot when the goose was out of range? Or what about the 12ga shooter who flinches when the goose was in range, and blew the goose's beak or foot off instead of having a clean kill?
Ah... What ever

Quote:
Why do some deer hunters use a .30-06 when a .30-30 will kill deer with a lot less recoil? Probably because the 06 is balllistically superior, likewise a .300 RUM will blow the doors off the old crusty .30-06.
Within its effective range of 125-150 yds, there is not a enough difference in ballistics between the 30-30 & 30-06 to say the 30-06 is superior. Out pass 150yds the 06 really shines.

Quote:
I'll be hunting whitetails and coyotes next month with a Rem 700 chambered in .300 RUM. Why? Because this is America by Golly
If that works for you then by God it works for me.

Quote:
I do feel that people who shoot magnums need to be competant marksmen. They should be able to shoot prone, sitting and standing, as well as putting them in the 10 ring at the bench. Is a .300 RUM fun to shoot at the bench? Not really. My shoulder starts to sting after 10 rds, however I still refuse to let it rattle my nerves enough to make me flinch
From my experience you appear to be the exception not the rule.

Quote:
Unfortunately a lot of newbies ( I assume they are newbies because they can't shoot very well ) show up at gun ranges with magnums, and make guys like me look bad.
They probably were at a gun shop, range or somewhere and heard some talking about how they shot a 12 point buck at 1000 yds with a .3000 SDUM (Super Duper Ultra Magnum)

Maybe I should edit item 3 in my post to include Loudest.
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Old October 28, 2005, 12:46 PM   #17
roy reali
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Wing Shots

The best wing shooters I know use 20 or even 28 gauge shotguns. A friend of mine uses a 28 over and under. He tags upland game better then most folks I see out with their 12's. Do you suppose less recoil doesn't discourage him from practice? Do you suppose he doesn't flinch in anticipation of recoil?

Most of the shooters I see at our local ranges with the newest super magnums have flinching problems. You know when their gun is about to go off. You wait to you see them back off from the scope with their eyes squinted. A micro-second after that, the gun fires. Two or three boxes of ammo later, they still haven't sighted in.
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Old October 28, 2005, 01:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
I do feel that people who shoot magnums need to be competant marksmen. They should be able to shoot prone, sitting and standing, as well as putting them in the 10 ring at the bench. Is a .300 RUM fun to shoot at the bench? Not really. My shoulder starts to sting after 10 rds
IMO, Quailfat has correctly identified the biggest problem with the magnum rounds, especially for inexperienced (and sometimes experienced!) hunters. Regardless of whether a hunter anticipates and/or perceives the magnum recoil while shooting at an animal, he or she will certainly feel it while practicing. Consequently, practice is often relegated to merely sighting in once before opening day, and magnum round performance cannot compensate for failure to hone shooting skills through practice.

I have a hunting buddy who, like Quailfat, shoots the RUM, and shoots it well. And that RUM sure does a number on deer. Personally though, I think I'll stick with the boring .308. At least the range time with it is fun.

Last edited by Fremmer; October 30, 2005 at 09:16 PM.
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Old October 28, 2005, 02:20 PM   #19
roy reali
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Numbers

I wonder if part of this magnum infactuation has to do with numbers. Specifically, ballistic chart numbers.

The old buffalo hunters used black powder cartridges like the .45-70. Anyway you look at the numbers produced by this BP round were lame. A modern day
.223's numbers would put those black powder cartridges to shame. However, I doubt it would be as effective on bison. Then again, bison don't read ballistic charts.
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Old October 28, 2005, 02:40 PM   #20
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IMHO this conversation doesn't have anything to do with the guns other then that you need you use at least enough gun what it boils down to is the person. the gun with out a shooter is just a glorified golf club and is about as usefull any bozo is capable of pulling a trigger its pretty much idiot proof but if they are not willing to learn how to properally use their chosen tool its doesn't matter whether it is a 300 rum or a 243 they'll still wound an animal with out propper shot placement sure every now and then they'll get a clean kill but if you throw enough lead at the target one is bound to be a bullseye.
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Old October 28, 2005, 02:45 PM   #21
Windjammer
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Numbers

Roy,

I do not think it is the ballistic numbers, I think its the sexy caliber names i.e. Remington Ultra Mag, Winchester Short Mag anything with magnum sells to these kind of people.

To be honest most of the guys I know who use magnum cartridge do not have a clues want the ballistic numbers mean. All they know is someone told them they could knock a deer off its feet at 500yds. with some magnum cartridge.
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Old October 29, 2005, 08:05 PM   #22
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"...Do other parts of the country have this same thing going on?..." It's not just Stateside. It goes on here too. Isn't marketing grand? The marketing types have got a lot of new and not so new hunters convinced they need the biggest meanest calibre going and a synthetic stock for everything. Heavy recoil combined with a light rifle adds up to a painful flinch and lost game.
"....30-30 will kill deer with a lot less recoil..." Ever shoot a Win 94? The .30-30 out of a 6 lb rifle isn't exactly light in the felt recoil department.
"...shot a cat with a howitzer..." They were used on Tigers and Panthers at one time. Does that count?
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Old November 3, 2005, 04:05 PM   #23
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I agree the magnumitis is everywhere (including living well inside me). last year I hunted deer in NE Pa. with a 300 win Mag, why? well becuase A: i have neevr killed anything with it and B: I had loaned my 308 to my cousin and had run into scope problems with my 30-06, my 30 30 I use for woods and drive hunting. This year I have the scope problem fixed on my 06 I am planning on using my 270WSM for deer however just becuase I havent shot anything but woodchucks this summer with it. and ive shot more than a couple of deer with my 375HH i have found with the right bullet you cant tell the difference between deer shot with that and deer shot with my 243. there is very little meat damage and the look on gys faces when u show them the shell is priceless. but if i had to choose one deer rifle it would be my 308. ive shot that rifle since i was little and because it was my father's only deer rifle and i have alot of sentiment for it.
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Old November 3, 2005, 04:59 PM   #24
AJ Peacock
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Ha Ha Ha,

A 22short will kill whitetail, why don't we just all use the 22short?

No recoil, no wasted meat. Any 'REAL' hunter should be able to stalk within 10 yards of any whitetail on the planet and shoot him between the eyes!

We all hunt in exactly the same conditions and since I don't 'think' I need a magnum, then nobody else 'needs' one!

<sarcasm off >

OK, some of you MAY need a 22lr or 22mag if you're hunting in the wind!

<OK, Sarcasm really off >

You don't have to use 22's, you can use the omnipotent .308. Because, all the best long range and bench rest shooters for years have proven that its the best. And I believe them! It'll kill anything on the planet!

Not much recoil, no wasted meat and Any 'REAL' hunter should be able to stalk within 100 yards of any animal on the planet and shoot him in the vitals!

<I think this Sarcasm switch is stuck! >

What about those of us that hunt where the typical shot is 300yds or more and the wind is always blowing!

Well then, if thats the case, YOU are allowed to use a Magnum.
But don't use it because you like it.
Don't use it because it is MORE lethal.
Don't use it because it shoots flatter.
Don't use it because you like to use it on all your hunts.

And for Heavens sake, DON'T LET ANYONE ON A FORUM KNOW THAT YOU USE A MAGNUM ON DEER!


<Sarcasm switch off>


200gr wildcat RBBT ULD bullet + Ballistic Coef >.9 +3300fps + .4 MOA rifle + Custom gunsmithing + expert marksman behind the trigger = "MY DREAM DEER RIFLE"

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Old November 4, 2005, 01:47 AM   #25
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If you shoot the weapon well you can use whatever gun you want.

I hunt whitetails with a 7STW and routinely shoot them past 400. When winds are light and variable I can hit an 8 inch gong at 550 all day. I also take out the old .35 remington for does just because I like to shoot irons......

Different tools for different hunting......but it's all hunting. Stop the hate. Everybody group hug.........
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