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Old October 18, 2005, 07:29 AM   #26
CQBArms
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Consider some of the hoops you go through for your pistol permit in NY state and that's the reason.
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Old October 18, 2005, 08:29 AM   #27
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In response to an earlier question, yes these are taking place in moderately to densly packed areas. It is not hard to do quietly at all if the home owners wakes up to find themselves surrounded. While buying a shotgun/rifle is not hard in NY state a handgun is a major hassle.

While in the more rural areas of NY gun ownership is fairly common on Long Island ownership is the exception, not the rule. In 95% + of those homes that are "armed" it is almost always an unloaded .22, deer rifle or shotgun kept in a closet I would wager. My best friend had major concerns with his wife's abusive ex-husband who had made multiple threats and was out of jail again. While he got a pistol permit and two guns (380 sig and 9mm Taurus) but he never practiced. After the one time I got him to a range, two years ago, he still hasn't cleaned the weapons! He seems to figure stainless will be alright... Now that the ex is locked up for 25+ years both guns are locked up unloaded and out of reach if needed in a hurry at night. The sad truth is the majority of people, here especially, just do not take the threat seriously...
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Old October 18, 2005, 09:01 AM   #28
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A lot can be said for fortifying your home to make forced entry more difficult, take longer, and cause more noise. All this works to the homeowner's benefit. I am not advocating iron bars or anything as I know living in a self-made prison is not acceptable for many, but little things like a solid front door securely attached at the hinges (not the crappy 1" screws it was originally mounted with) and a good deadbolt that latched into a reinforced door jamb to make it significantly more difficult to kick in. And how about a decent storm door on top of that with a deadbolt. Does not have to be a 'security door' per se as I am guessing that most violent crooks will want to come in the door anyway and anything that takes more time and makes more noise is good. The windows are more for burglars than robbers I would think though that certainly is not without exception.

A flood light or two with auto-on sensor are cheap these days and easy to install at entrances to the house and might also buy you some time. Security camera at the entrance and/or a buzzer that lets you know someone is there before they knock or try to kick your door in. I never answer the door unarmed unless I was expecting someone. I do not carry in the house per se, but when there is a knock on the door I go in the opposite direction at first and retrieve my carry piece before even looking through the peephole - takes maybe 15 seconds longer to answer the door and I figure if it is anything even remotely important they can and will wait. I also have an unloaded AK stashed away 'somewhere' that I can get to quickly (but no one else can I might add) and a few loaded 30-round mags are also in a few spots throughout the home on top of kitchen cabinets and a tall grandfather clock. That will be for when if a whole gaggle of crooks decides to do a home invasion on me. It is precisely because of home invasions that I dropped the 12-gauge pump as my home defense weapon. If there are 5-10 crooks coming into my home I do not think a low capacity pump is the best answer.

I went to high school a woman who was cold-bloodedly executed, and two other people as well, during a robbery after fully cooperating. They were killed with, of all things, a 22LR pistol because they laid face down on the ground as they were told to do. One punk with one small gun then executes three people with shots to the back of the head at point-blank range. That absolutely cemented it with me - no cooperation, no surrender. I probably would have cooperated and done what I was told as well had that been me and I would have been executed as well. It is a terrible tragedy but at least one can learn from such things. I'd happily give up the valuables if I knew they'd take just that but I will not gamble my life on someone else's mercy or lack thereof. I strongly advocate deterrence combined with violent offense if the deterrence fails. I would fight unarmed anyone with a gun before I'd let them take that degree of control. At least if you can get up close you can cut down angles and even if you get shot you increase the odds it won't be a well placed shot (unless the crook gets lucky of course).
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Old October 18, 2005, 02:54 PM   #29
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7. Talk to the local officials. Police and Fire Department personell will be able to

DocFox:
Respectfully, I'd like to say that since these folks are in New York, on Long Island, consulting the authorities up there would probably result in them being told to hand over any defensive weapons immediately in order to "get more guns off the streets."

I know that sound stupid, since the gun isn't "on the street" but I think New York City doesn't even allow you to have a firearm, does it? (Unless you are Chuck Schumer, or some other politician up there that needs protection from criminals)
GMC
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Old October 18, 2005, 03:09 PM   #30
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True, the authorities would oppose you getting a gun her but this is NOT New York City. Any person with a clean record can buy a shotgun or rifle, even with our ridiculous Assault Weapons Ban. You could have a 10 round mag, or pre ban mags. Only NYC has what amounts to a ban with outrageous steps needed to obtain a firearm. I wouldn't live there and am amazed by the sheeple I know who do...
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Old October 18, 2005, 03:21 PM   #31
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re home invasions

Hi Python
I was just thinking that a neighborhood watch may be beneficial. The residents should know "who belongs" and who is suspicious. Additionally; how about a bunch of neighbors chipping in for an armed security patrol in the nieghboorhood. This is not meant to replace the critical role your personal firearms would play in a home invasion but it is one added layer of deterence. I know that you guys have pretty high taxes as it is, (my brother is in Rockville Centre) but the extra money for the security patrol may be worth it. Just another option to consider. Stay safe.
Steve
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Old October 18, 2005, 03:43 PM   #32
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Old October 18, 2005, 07:22 PM   #33
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$13.00 for a motion sensor floodlight

Install a peep hole in the door...... If you cant see em dont open the door.

If they refuse to answer dont open the door and call the police.

If they are trying to ram down your door it aint the girl scouts selling cookies.

a load of buckshot through the door should suffice to set them on thier way.
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Old October 18, 2005, 07:28 PM   #34
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Thanks for the suggestions Steve, it is a good idea but this is a middle class neighbor, for Long Island anyway, and I don't think the neighbors would pay for armed security, our taxes average about $8000 as it is. We do have a tight neighborhood and all watch out for each other. I personally have called or visited neighbors houses where doors were open, or suspicious people were looking around (they turned out to be contractors and town inspectors, etc). I am going to keep my glock 9mm in a security case by my bed, I am going to call the Suffolk County PD pistol licensing dept to make sure I can legally keep a loaded gun in my premises. Don't laugh, they used to call it a premises permit but now it is called a target license. One day I'll be out of New York all together and into a "free" state, hopefully I'll live that long. Stay safe too. By the way, what's the best defensive 9mm load, never thought I'd be asking that question....
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Old October 19, 2005, 02:39 AM   #35
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I had a Suffolk County pistol license, and I never questioned the idea that it entitled me to keep my handguns loaded at home. Why would you want to bother asking an agency that is CLEARLY VERY ANTI-GUN according to all accounts here? You know they will probably try to steer you into the "call the police to save you" camp with every breath they utter. And why alert them to something you wish to do, on the off chance that they will have a problem with it?

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Old October 19, 2005, 08:12 AM   #36
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Pythonguy, the SCPD will tell you to keep it locked up with the ammo stored in a separate location. This is stated in the little handbook they give you that you can also get from their website I believe. That does not make having a loaded gun in your home illegal though. These are the same people who tell you in your handbook that you are almost never able to take a handgun to another state on vacation, an outright lie.

They WILL NOT tell you that there is no law against having your gun loaded at home. Calling them will only put you on the short list of people they may pay more attention to, especially by suggesting that you think it prudent to keep a loaded handgun about. With the discretionary nature of the permit process I prefer to be as unknown to them as possible while remaining legal.

I live on Long Island as well and know exactly the thought process you are going through. People here are conditioned to believe that unless you are told you can do something it is forbidden/illegal. That is not the case though and in much of the rest of the country the expectation is the opposite, unless told otherwise it is legal. That is the principal our legal system works under.

The SCPD will not help you. Their purpose is to make it as difficult as possible for us to have handguns and do everything possible to keep the ones that are out there under lock and key.

I suggest checking out www.packing.org for information on egal use and carry of a firearm as well as www.nysafe.org for the 2A fight in NY & LI.
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Old October 19, 2005, 08:27 AM   #37
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This thread at www.packing.org deals with some of the issues we are discussing.

http://www.packing.org/community/gen...d/?thread=3579


You do not have a target permit. There is nothing in NY State law that specifies a permit for target.

You have a PROPER CAUSE permit, as coverred under NY State Law, that allows you to carry a pistol loaded and concealed upon your person. There are administrative restrictions, with no criminal penalties whatsoever, that are placed on the permit by the issuing authorities. While most intelligent people see this as an abuse of power the courts have so far upheld the ability of issuing authorities to enact rules beyond those established by law as long as there are only administrative consequences (loss of permit). If SCPD wants to make it an administrative restriction that you keep the weapon locked up and unloaded they may and they may also pull your permit if they believe you are not doing so.

Because of the wide say the police have with administrative powers over your permit they may pull it for any reason at all. If they THINK you should not have it for whatever reason you are in trouble. Technically you have recourse under the law but on your own you are in trouble. Better to stay off the radar. After that join SAFE at www.nysafe.org and if trouble begins brewing with the authorities call in the cavalry. SAFE and the NRA made an excellent point that they can do nothing after the problem is done. They need to be involced from as early as possible, like with the confiscations in New Orleans. The head of SAFE provides you with his phone number so that if you find yourself in trouble you can call him.
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Old October 19, 2005, 09:01 AM   #38
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Gary Conner... You are right of course, my list was not specifically intended just for him, but also for everyone here. Each person should know which items they can not implement (obviously speaking to the authorities in San Francisco would land you in prison if you mentioned your handgun). As a whole, the things I posted are sound and effective steps to reduce risks and are things that work.
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Old October 19, 2005, 02:33 PM   #39
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If you're worried about shots penetrating your walls and entering the neighbor's house, I'd suggest birdshot from a 12 gague. There is no guarantee that it won't but it might be better than a 44 Magnum. Plus, there is no sound in the world like that of a 12 Ga chambering the first round.
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Old October 19, 2005, 03:43 PM   #40
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re home invasions

Hi Python
I do not have any 9mm 's so I do not know which is the best round. I am sure others will help you here. I choose my ammo based on what my semi-auto will reliably cycle. I feel for you in wanting to get out of NY. I grew up in NYC (Staten Island) and I was held up at gun point THREE TIMES. First time was outside my then girlfriend's deli waiting to pick her up we were going out to SPEAKS on the island. Anyway I was an unalert kid daydreaming and was quickly jarred from my complacency when a hooded BG shoved a BIG revolver to my head and relieved me of my cash and watch. Second time was at my part- time gas station job while in college. This time they made me and the guy I was working with drive them to a housing project near the gas station and took the nights reciepts; my and my friends cash and then told us count to 100 and they fled. Two armed BGs .I was so concerned they would take my car a 68 Mustang fastback! I guess since it was not an Electra 225 they did not want it! Third time I was going to my car after night classes at the City University. I parked off campus and about halfway to my car a guy asks for the time, (I know now that this is usually a set up) when I looked at my watch he shoved a small semi auto into my ribs and took my wallet and leather jacket. It was about 12 degrees, but hey thank God I am here to tell you of my close calls. That was from 1977 to 1980. During some of this period Mayor Koch had those TV spots that if you are caught with an illegal gun in NYC it is a 1 year mandatory "vacation" I guess the mutts that took me off were not intimadated by it! Just people like you and me you know the law abiding ones. It was at this time I decided to become a defender and promoter of our 2nd Amendment rights. I am currently a Life Member of NRA and am actively involved in writing my elected officials in order to further our freedoms. I have been in FL since 1997 and my brother from Rockville Centre would LOVE to relocate here but he has a great carreer and it would not be good for him and his family at this time. I may be moving to Nevada or Arizona soon. These hurricanes SUCK! We are watching hurricane Wilma as I write this. We got hit with two of them last season but I had just put 3M "security film" on the windows and we stayed in the house thank God no damage and our power was out for only 5 hours. In my subdivision the electric is underground. Well good luck and stay safe. PS did you know that you can get a NON- RESIDENT CCW issued by the state of Florida? It won't help you in the "republic of NY" but it will enable you to carry conceled in many states that have reciprocity with Florida.I beleive it can all be done through the mail. Check out PACKING.ORG for further information. Click on the Florida link and you will see all the information you need to get the permit. You may have to take an approved gun safety course. I am sure there are NRA certified instructers up there. Local gun shop may be able to assist. Here is the link; http://www.packing.org/
Check this link out for Fl reciprocity. http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/new...led_carry.html http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/eligible.html
This last link shows eligibility for Fl CCW You just need to be resident of the U.S. Let me know if you go for the permit. Steve

Last edited by FLA2760; October 19, 2005 at 04:32 PM.
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Old October 19, 2005, 06:35 PM   #41
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Hi all,

Thanks for all the great ideas/suggestions. A few points, I have called SCPD before, they never ask for my name (phone number is blocked) and they have been really helpful, even telling me I can send my guns to any service company for work without using an FFL. I read the pistol handbook, I keep a downloaded copy that I make sure is the latest version. Under types of license, I have the target and hunting type F "Proper cause" as Musketeer pointed out. It means I can carry concealed to and from the range and/or hunting area, except through NYC (locked box). The rules do give them broad revocation power, I don't know how they use it in practice as I've not read about people losing their license. The booklet does mentions the locking of the gun, which is how I would keep it, hidden in a quick box for fast access instead of in the large gun safe. I'm sure it can't be loaded though, and getting around that could be tricky, although I am a fast loader with that glock fast loader. I guess I won't bother calling to ask about the gun at home, they never answer their phone anymore anyway. The police in the pistol license section are really different then if you called the main desk, which I never would, the pistol guys are much cooler. I remember when I first got my license in 1980 (Nassau county) there was a County rule that you had to belong to a gun club in order to have a permit and keep your guns in a locked box to and from the range. They have actually relaxed the rules on these issues and are more like upstate NY then NYC. Of course, they are not exactly Las Vegas when it comes to owning, carry, and shooting. A few more years and my son will be in College, maybe it'll be time to move off Long Island then, its too expensive and restrictive here anyway. Its a shame because it is a beautiful place to live and work.
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Old October 19, 2005, 08:59 PM   #42
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Quote:
which is how I would keep it, hidden in a quick box for fast access instead of in the large gun safe. I'm sure it can't be loaded though, and getting around that could be tricky, although I am a fast loader with that glock fast loader.
Not fast enough access if you're worried about a home invasion. You won't have time to get to the room with the safe in it, let alone have time to open the safe and load the gun.

If you think you'll need the gun you need to have it on you. It will be secure that way and will also be handy. Having it unloaded will make it pretty useless to you.

Go ahead and get the quick box and a mag holder. Then if you have a home invasion and someone asks what happened, you can tell them that you carry the mag around with you loaded and that when you heard the noises you managed to run to the room with the quick box, open it, take out the gun, insert the loaded magazine, rack the slide and get back to the front door in time to stop the home invasion.
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Old October 20, 2005, 01:27 AM   #43
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Great thread! Very informative and useful. Sorry to hear about the home invasion spree there.

On a side note, a long-term solution, if it's an option, is to consider the type of community one lives in. I realize this is not an option for many people because of economics, employment, etc. I used to live in the LA suburb of Carson, which is adjacent to the infamous city of Compton (birthplace of gangsta rap, always vying to be the #1 homicide city in the country for its size category) and just south of South-Central LA (Watts Riots, etc).

Carson itself is working middle-class but the crime rate is high because of its proximity. While residing there, my house did have a home invasion during the day when my wife's mom and her friend were inside. Traumatized the poor ladies. Also, there were ghetto gangbangers hanging around the block, drinking in the street corner, playing loud music, etc. and needless to say, there was plenty of opportunity for confrontation.

But that was one reason I was motivated in business, which did improve substantially, so I ended up having the option to move to another suburb here called Palos Verdes, where you just don't get home invasions (very rare) or anything of that magnitude. Heck, one of the communities here is called Rolling Hills, a gated city, and they have practically zero homicides year after year. Unfortunately, that's not yet an option for me as the real estate is super expensive.

Bottom line is that, for the long-term, a different community can make a difference.
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Old October 20, 2005, 02:39 AM   #44
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First rule at home is keep the doors locked.

I recently saw a video on the web (can't find it now) where a guy kept a surveillance camera inside his home. The guy owned a bar and came home with two female friends at closing. As they were sitting and chatting, two guys simply opened the unlocked screen door to the patio. One guy was carrying a pistol (looked like a Mac 10 or similar) but the second guy did not have one visible.

One of the females goes into the bedroom where the guy without a visible handgun follows and then returns with the female and a handgun showing. The bar owner had a concealed carry permit and this was maybe his gun. At any rate, they forced all 3 to lie on the floor and executed them all. Bar owner made one feeble attempt to resist during the home invasion.

As for my family, we never answer the door to someone we don't know. Most times we won't even go to the door unless family or friends have called ahead to let us know they are coming.
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Old October 20, 2005, 08:33 AM   #45
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PythonGuy, don't think the Nassau PD changed any rules to make things better for you. The to and from the range in a locked box was blatantly against the written law, it has to be allowed to be carried concealed at some time in order for it to be a Proper Cause permit, otherwise they are not complying with the law in issuing it.

I carry at home, it is my house and there is no rule saying I cannot. At night I will place the loaded gun in the top dresser draw next to the bed. My little girl cannot get to it that way while we are in the room. If I am not there it is in a locked box. When I am there the gun is loaded, either on my person or in its nighttime location. If you think you are going to be able to get a key or undo a compbination and open a lock box in the dark, after just awakenning, then locate the magazine and load the gun you are in for a surprise. My mags are at least stainless steel and the gun is hard chromed. You Glock is black as the night and the magazines are the same. Of course you could tunr the lights on, alerting any intruders and destroying your night vision...

Like I said, I understand your thinking 100%. It has been ingrained into you by the bad advice of the issuing authorities in Nassau and Suffolk Counties. Understand though that none of them want you to even have a firearm, let alone have it readily available. Even many cops in this area who are supposedly pro citizen carry are not really when put to the test. Many of the gunowners of this state have been so brainwashed that the shotgun guys will write off the rifle guys and both will write off the handgun guys. Since everything is done to create firearms ignorance here and virtually no real Second Amendment supporters are going to move here the situation will probably only get worse. Many, like myself, are actively courting jobs in other more friendly states. I am talking to one real promising company in Northern VA at present...

Do not believe for one second that the SCPD does not know instantly who you are when you call. You ID being blocked does not apply to calls made to certain locations. Police stations and 911 are some of the exceptions. If you call them on anything but a public pay phone they know who you are.

The officers in the SCPD pistol buruea are a mixed lot. They all have the "superior LEO" attitude but some are better than others. At least one, my coworkers neighbor, is their on rubber gun patrol because he is a well know beligerent drunk that cannot be trusted on the street. The pistol Bureau strikes me as an excellent place to stick those who shouldn't be on the street anymore as the only people they routinely deal with are the ones with background records so clean you could eat off them, you and I.
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Old October 20, 2005, 08:11 PM   #46
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Musketeer, I agree with you on every single point you make, neither county wants us to defend ourselves with firearms period. Just reading their pistol manual you can tell they discourage the use of firearms and go so far as to say even if its justified you will have to spend your own funds to defend yourself. The rules are murky about home gun use, are we guilty if we keep a loaded gun at home? Do we lock our kitchen knives away too? High traffic, high costs, and too many rules due to the need to control the masses. I've gotta get out of this place.
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Old October 21, 2005, 12:19 AM   #47
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LOCKS-

I don't know how prevelant this is, but if you buy a door, especially a patio door, that has a lock already installed, chances are that its really easy to get a key for.

I used to work for a company that built patio doors. There were a total of 6 different keysets that the company used. That should give you a bit of something to think about.

Another anecdotal evidence that has me thinking that locks aren't the greatest protection as well- When my dad had his house remodeled, he had new doors put it. He ended up losing the keys in the mess shortly after the doors were installed. He went to the local lumberyard and asked about how he could get a key matched up, they gave him a dozen different keys to try- the door came from their lumberyard, so one of the keys was going to fit.
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Old October 23, 2005, 07:43 PM   #48
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Python Guy:
Quote:
I've gotta get out of this place.
Well, come on down! We're the New York of the South.
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Old October 23, 2005, 10:13 PM   #49
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I've gotta get out of this place
That's what I'm saying about options that might make sense.
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Old October 26, 2005, 12:39 PM   #50
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I guess there really aren't too many guns here in Long Island. My county, Suffolk, has about 1.5 million residents and here are the number of guns registered:
Total Active Pistol Licenses 28,682
Total Registered Handguns - (Including Police Officers) 92,078
That works out to about 6% of the population, if it was one gun for each. Of course I'm sure most own more then one, so a tiny portion of the population own legal handguns in Suffolk County. No wonder there were 33 home invasions this year, I'm surprised there aren't more! 95% or more of the population is unarmed, and since cops are included in the above munbers, the civilian total is much less. Anybody know the national average?
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