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Old October 17, 2005, 06:47 PM   #51
swmike
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Don't forget, tracers work both ways. Besides, they might set the curtains on fire
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Old October 17, 2005, 11:04 PM   #52
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I'm beginning to wonder whether some are sleeping in their beds or are sitting in their Sealy Posturepedic foxholes waiting for "Charlie" to come through the wire.

Granted, any yahoo that would stand at the top of the stairs, shout "hey you" and then rack the slide for effect is probably long overdue for some kind of bodily injury.

That said however, in a dark 2 story house (home field advantage) where I have a bead on the welfare child who wants my flatscreen, jacking a round into the chamber from behind cover is probably the best of both worlds.

Depending on the size of the house, an intruder would be lucky to determine the general direction of where the sound of the gun was. I have surefires and such, but when defending my own house they are more of a hinderance than a help. I know where everything is, and what everyone in my family looks like at o'dark thirty in the morning. Shining some light all over the place is gonna give the bad guy a hell of alot better chance for a spin and shoot then me racking the slide.

Even if he does get lucky my index finger still moves faster than he can.

As for the sound itself... it seemed to get the attention of many a looter and pillager during the L.A. riots according to several agents I know. Based on my own personal experience, movie or not, its definiately a universal language, and people get real polite and seem to take instruction extremely well when that slide moves. Just my .02
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Old October 18, 2005, 01:14 PM   #53
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LOL@ the "tatically correct" people

Ever heard of cruser safe? Here is an idea, flag down a local patrolman and ask him if he has a shell in the tube, and when he says no, tell him he is doing it wrong. Bwahahhahhahah!
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Old October 18, 2005, 11:19 PM   #54
Matis
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About 20 years ago, after writing up his report (threat from tenant), the police officer was in the mood to visit and talk.

Told me about racking his shotgun. About 2am, in a mall parking lot, following up report of prowlers, he heard something deep in the lot, but couldn't see it.

Said he got the shotgun, racked it and ordered the perp to come out.

The perp came out with hands up, begging, "don't shoot, don't shoot."

He believed strongly in the intimidation factor of racking the shotgun.

***

About 10 years ago, I fell asleep reading in my recliner, in the living room near the front door. No one else in the house.

About 2:30am I'm awakened to the sound of banging on front door, accompanied by male voice, "open the door, open the door."

I'm shaken but I ask, "...do you need the police? Want me to call the police?"

"No!" But he keeps pounding and demanding I open the door.

Told him I wasn't opening any door and to get the hell off my property.

Didn't make a dent.

So I asked loudly so he could clearly hear, "Marcy, get the shotgun." Actually just me home, but I ran to the bedroom and came back with the 870, unloaded.

Said through the front door. "Get off my deck or I'll shoot you through the door."

And I racked the empty gun.

Didn't phase him at all -- he kept shouting for me to open the door.

So I said, "Marcy, call the police!" Loudly.

THAT phased him. He took off. And that was that.

Racking didn't scare him off; threat to call police did.

Go figure.


Yes, I know I did everything wrong, but that was 10 years ago and I wasn't yet spending my whole lifetime on gun boards. I know better, now.

My point is that the vaunted racking sound had no effect whatever on whoever the hell he was.

I calmed down and didn't bother to call the police.

Figured he was on something.


I might have been very wrong, but although shaken, the REAL alarm bells in my head had not gone off. Maybe something in his voice. I just wasn't scared enough to do any more than what I describe above.


Today, my 870 is fully loaded and chambered -- 8 shots. No little children in my house any more.


I no longer believe in racking the shotgun to scare off a perp.



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Old October 20, 2005, 08:05 PM   #55
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Sorry, I got sidetracked and forgot to post the link to Telarc's "War of 1812 Overture". Here it is... and don't forget about the volume! Really, really, big, KA-BOOMS!

http://www.telarc.com/gscripts/title.asp?gsku=0541
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Old October 20, 2005, 08:37 PM   #56
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You guys keep talking about tactical advantage and not giving away your position. How many of you guys are sound sleepers? How about you guys focus on a few more deterrents and then worry about blasting the intruder? I hate to admit that when I am dead tired, I could probably sleep through a tornado. A shotgun in my unconscious hands wouldn't do a bit of good.

First of all, I keep my house well lit and we have alarm stickers. I also have an 80 lb. akita who covers my whole back yard. They will set her off before they can set off my house alarm. My alarm has an instant on feature which we only set when everyone is home. Otherwise, we use the regular one which has a 15 second delay while beeping away. We have a solid door to the bedroom door which we keep locked (no kiddies to wake us up to chase off boogeymen yet). We live in a good area and the police respond pretty quick. Most burglers probably wouldn't stick around if it went off. If someone is determined enough to stick around even after the alarm goes off (we have cellular backup if the phone lines get cut) and attempts to get through the door, I should be in a somewhat conscious state to defend myself.

One other thing to consider is that most burglers want nothing to do with an occupied house. Why risk getting shot? Why not choose an unoccupied house where he will have more time to rummage for goodies? A shotgun won't do squat if you aren't home to use it. Alarms are not over-rated if there is decent police times in your area. Dogs are also great deterrents when you are not home. I am probably going to add some cameras around the house as an extra deterren. If someone is really out to get YOU, then nothing will stop them... Not a dog, not an alarm, not cameras, and more than likely, not the sound of a shotgun being racked. The only thing that will stop them is a big Kaboom from your shotgun!
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Old October 20, 2005, 08:38 PM   #57
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I have never heard a Rattle Snake rattle- Snakes in Australia just go ahead and bite you- but I reckon the sound of a rattle snake rattling, the racking of a shotgun or the more subtle click of a hammer engaging are about the worlds spookiest sounds....
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Old October 20, 2005, 09:34 PM   #58
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swmike said,
Quote:
Double Naught Spy

Don't forget, tracers work both ways. Besides, they might set the curtains on fire
Dude, I said that.

Quote:
It is sort of interesting to compare similar concepts and problems. A lot of people think laser sights, are so bad, like tracers and flashlights, because they give away one's position,
stephen426 said,
Quote:
One other thing to consider is that most burglers want nothing to do with an occupied house. Why risk getting shot? Why not choose an unoccupied house where he will have more time to rummage for goodies?
I think you missed the point. We are not talking about burglars who are burgling unoccupied homes, but those who make entry into occupied homes. What most burglars prefer to do does not apply here. What most prefer means nothing when you come into contact with one in your home.

You are correct in that most would prefer to avoid conflict and would like unprotected easy scores. Assuming your burglar has made entry into your home and knows people are at home when the burglar enters, that means the burglar is that much more of a threat to you and your family because he is willing to risk confrontation to get what you have.

What burlars prefer to do also means nothing when your intruder is there when you are because the intruder is not after valuables, but to commit some other crime such as rape, kidnapping, or murder - as stephen426 noted.

In the grand scheme and as the homeowner, you have no reason to waste time debating whether the intruder is there for valuables or for lives. The intruder's motives really don't matter. All that matters is that recognize the intruder is present in your home and that the intruder's presence is a threat to your life and the lives of your family members. As such, you need to take appropriate action.

I understand that a lethal response to intruders is not necessarily legal in all states, but then again, home invasion isn't legal in any.
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Old October 20, 2005, 10:37 PM   #59
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Double Naught Spy,

I know you are right that predators exist.
Quote:
rape, kidnapping, or murder
It is hard not to grow complacent though. I just try not to make enemies and hope that all of my deterrents are enough to stave off a random attack.

My post was to intended to give others ideas for keeping a tactical advantage. I don't sit around my house with my shotgun slung over my shoulder and I doubt that many of us do. Being caught off guard is the worst tactical situation.

Don't get me wrong. If someone broke into my house, I would not hesitate to shoot. Debating as to whether racking a shotgun is pretty immaterial in my opinion. Some people feel uncomfortable with a shotgun ready to rock and roll. Maybe they have kids or maybe they are afraid of accidental discharges.

Besides, how much of a real tactical disadvantage is it if you rack a shotgun? If you are behind a closed door, it is difficult if not impossible for an intruder to locate you. Besides, you can move. The intruder should only have one way in and that should be through the door (unless you have multiple doors going into your room). You just have to train your shotgun at the door and go for cover (hopefully you have something in the pipe that will penetrate the door). If the intruder shoots through the door, what chance will he really have of hitting you unless he knows how your room is laid out and where you are most likely to be? You on the other hand just have blast him through the door. How likely is that in reality?

If you guys are talking about tactical advantages and disadvantages, what about moving for cover? Won't you make noise and give away your position? What about calling the cavalry for backup? Won't talking to the 911 operator give away your position and keep you from using that hand?

If you guys just want to argue an absurd point that makes little to no difference. Go right ahead. Personally, I think its better to concentrate on preventing these situations and give yourself every advantage by having enough time to react if they do occur!
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Old October 24, 2005, 05:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
You guys keep talking about tactical advantage and not giving away your position. How many of you guys are sound sleepers? How about you guys focus on a few more deterrents and then worry about blasting the intruder? I hate to admit that when I am dead tired, I could probably sleep through a tornado. A shotgun in my unconscious hands wouldn't do a bit of good.
Well, I'm only speaking for myself here but I am a very light sleeper. I'm sensitive to out-of-the-ordinary sounds, specifically, i.e. I can sleep through a rainstorm or gusts of wind, but if a branch falls outside, my eyes are snapping open. If someone kicks in my door or breaks my window, I'm definitely waking up, and I'm sure the adrenaline and fear that someone is in my apartment will be more than sufficient to shove me into a fully alert state. I guess it depends on the person, though.
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Old October 24, 2005, 05:54 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
Some people feel uncomfortable with a shotgun ready to rock and roll. Maybe they have kids or maybe they are afraid of accidental discharges.
Too true. I think it takes keeping a round chambered for a while and getting used to the idea. A shotgun or an autoloading pistol with one in the chamber is generally as safe as a wheelgun. What are the chances of accidental discharge (let alone hurting yourself due to an accidental discharge)? If you practice good gun safety, they're astronomically low, or even zero if you don't make any mistakes at all (and let's face it, gun safety is fairly straightforward).

Kids are another story. I don't have kids yet, so it's hard for me to advise on that issue.
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Old October 24, 2005, 07:50 AM   #62
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The only reason I would be racking my shotgun is to put a round up in the chamber. If racking my shotgun makes a intruder leave then so be it. I would not want to be at home with a unloaded shotgun and a intruder who did not leave at the sound of my racking gun. Any intruder who does not leave when I put a round in the chamber of my shotgun will be going to meet the Creator for Judgement Day!

I do not keep a round in the chamber of my shotgun, but my 9MM has one in the pipe and ten in the clip at all times. ( I have two extra clips full and ready)
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Old October 30, 2005, 10:53 PM   #63
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Rack this

Yeah, I am tired of people saying oh the racking sound bla bla bla. Salesman use that line and people new to guns use that line. I am new to guns but I have also read that doing that will give away your position. The only place I am going to rack an unloaded shotgun is at the shooting range before I get ready to take it back to the counter from where I rented it from.
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Old October 30, 2005, 11:31 PM   #64
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not an opinionated group here, nosiree....

I think I'll take cover before I post just to be safe

My CHL instructor (whom I know I probably refer to too often, but he's a 30+ year veteran of Texas law enforcement) specifically recommends this tactic. The idea is to get the bad guy away from you, with nobody hurt, if possible. I'm not hunting, I'm defending, and that's the difference here.

My instructor said that you have a shotgun, and you use that sound as a warning. You may even use a verbal warning. I don't know about you, but my little 1850 sq ft house isn't exactly going to be difficult to find me in, so "tactical advantage" and "giving away where I am" isn't a real big worry. If it's 3 am, where is the BG going to expect me to be? under the dining table? You rack it and warn him. If he leaves, hot dog. If he surrenders, wait for the cops and good riddance. IF he doesn't, and he keeps coming, he's dead.

Now in our house, reality would be something like this: alarm goes off. I hit panic switch on alarm button while husband gets shotgun. I have XD-40 and .380. Assuming BG comes in either front or back doors, he cannot possibly get past us to get to only son living at home (unless, of course, said son comes barreling out of his bedroom, ninja sword in hand....) One of us is in bedroom doorway; other goes across very short perpendicular hall and we're set to defend. One stands, one on the floor (probably me).

However, all of this is unnecessary because the BG will BREAK HIS NECK on all the s#&% on the floor that youngest son leaves out. Shoes, backpack, said, ninja sword, practice bamboo sword, vacuum cleaner that he ran and didn't put away....

There was a time when it would have been a skateboard. No longer. Our tactical junk defense is second to none. I may start a school.

Sorry. It's late and I got carried away there.

Seriously, the comment about "I don't do that hunting" disturbs me because we are not hunting in this scenario, we are trying to get out of it alive, and, frankly, with the BG alive too and in jail if he makes good decisions and either lays down without so much as a twitch while we wait for the cops, or else flees.

My highly overinflated $.02 worth.

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Old October 30, 2005, 11:56 PM   #65
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The Racking Shotgun Action

1st. This tactic does work I know it from personal observation.

2nd. As to giving away your position, Unless your trained to do it. ( I don't know of any "ner-do wells" that are trained at this sort of thing), I was was trained as a physical acoustical analyst for uncle. racking the slide will give a rough general direction but not enough to really locate you. I can assure you that Racking the shotgun will get you A first response from the BG of "OH S--T!!". The next though will be of flight or fight. By this time they will not be sure of where the sound came from. A command in a loud angry tone will either gain submission or flight. I will note that is this type of situation there are no absolutes. You could somehow be up against a highly skilled pro but would a highly skilled pro go to the risk and trouble if hitting your humble abode for small potatoes? I think not.
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Old October 31, 2005, 01:07 AM   #66
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I've never had an intruder inside my house, but a few months back when I first moved into my town home condo, that has a layout (ironically) like a fortress, my wife's car was being broken into. Well I keep a Mossberg 500 underneath the bed with 4 in the tube at all times, (3) bird shot, (1) 00Buckshot. More Birdshot than Buck mainly because I don't want to mess up the real estate should it be needed indoors, and birdshot at the ranges you'd be talking about in the house is enough to blow a man clean in half anyhow, and messy to begin with.

Anyhow, I went to the second story, opened the window and merely racked a shell into the chamber. Man I tell you I've never seen 3 pukes run so fast in my life. If it were indoors I'd just rack it and send them to whatever GOD they believe in though as they have no business in my domicile. *Thus I guess it works sometimes.
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Old October 31, 2005, 10:52 AM   #67
Glenn E. Meyer
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Oh for God's sake. When you pick up the gun, you rack it - so you can shoot it. If the sound scares someone, it is a nice side effect.

It is not a 'tactic'.

You also train for the possible. Maybe most burglars are cowards compared to the heroes of the Internet. Some might be Platt or Matix, the DC Snipers or the North Hollywood bank robbers.

The only sensible plan for the home owner is to rack the gun immediately and not try to make a display of it from an exposed position.

This is really not rocket science. You don't make this sound as a warning. Duh - 30 year veteran of law enforcement doesn't drop tactical IQ points on you. Bah. I know lots of veterans and instructors - they don't advise racking as a warning.

Warnings are verbal, clear and from behind cover.
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Old October 31, 2005, 05:09 PM   #68
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i read once that in actual LE firefights, (memory not as good as it once was) that cops and bad guys using handguns, hit each other about equal and maybe the bad guys hit more. when the cop had a shotgun and the bad guys had handguns, the cop never got hit. like it's some kind of virtual shield almost. break out a shotty and folks start to scrambling.

my take on this: having a shotgun = very valuable. letting the bad guy know you have a shotgun = pricless.
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Old October 31, 2005, 05:26 PM   #69
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"A shotgun...... with one in the chamber is generally as safe as a wheelgun."

Generally not true, with the possible exception of Mossbergs. Remington pattern guns and similar do not have a firing pin lock or any mechanism to lock the hammer and/or sear. They are not drop safe and may discharge if the is a round in the chamber and the gun is dropped or struck.

"Oh for God's sake. When you pick up the gun, you rack it"

Again, generally not true. The chamber is charged when the gun needs to be fired, not when it is picked up. There is plenty of time to rack the action while mounting the gun to a firing position.

Most of us will lay hands on the gun far, far more often than we will need to fire it. Prematurely chambering a round just provides more opportunity to a drop- or strike-induced unintentional discharge
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Old October 31, 2005, 05:39 PM   #70
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The unchambered debate is another one of long and useless repetitive posts. If you want to shoulder the gun and rack it at the same time - that is your decision.

Evaluate the risk of dropping it vs. the risk of needing to fire quickly and without worrying about screwing up the rack.

To each his own.

Folks should carry an unloaded musket and charge it while singing Yankee Doodle Dandy to the bad guys.
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