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Old October 10, 2005, 02:30 PM   #1
C Philip
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Gang Violence: Fellow student assaulted at my college

This is a true story, please take it seriously:
This past weekend a fellow student at my college, which will remain unnamed, was attacked by a gang in the early morning. As far as I know it was random violence, not a planed attack or anything. The student was walking home at around 3:00am (not a good time to be out) when he was suddenly jumped by 9, yes nine, guys. He got a broken nose, a broken elbow, and has dents in his skull in two places. The good news it that he will recover just fine, no permanent damage. Before this inicident I had no knowledge of any gang violence in the area. But now I know that there are two main rival gangs with "turf" right near the college campus. I do not know if the guys who attacked the student were armed (knives, bats, chains, etc.) or if they used their fists. This is very disconcerting to me, as I had no idea there were gangs so close. But there is violence everywhere. What could the student have done? If you are jumped by 9 guys you don't have much of a chance, even if you were carrying a concealed handgun. Would it be legal to shoot if you had a gun even if they didn't have any weapons? (Please don't make this a caliber war here; but in this case I would want a hi-cap 15rd 9mm, not a 7rd .45, not enough bullets to shoot all the bad guys. And there is no way a revolver has enough rounds.) You would certainly be in fear of your life, and even if they didn't present any "deadly weapons" like knives. It's nine against one! But even if I carried, I might be afraid to pull my gun, since it's a gang, I would worry that they have guns too, and pulling my gun would just make them pull theirs too, then I would be a dead man. Since it is college, it is not legal to carry a handgun on campus, and since I live on campus, that presents a problem for me. Right now all I have is mace/pepper spray. Not good enough for this situation. Even a good martial artist probably wouldn't fare well against 9 guys at once. The only thing I can think of is to avoid the situation all together, walk in groups, and don't be outside at 3:00am. But if you happened to find yourself in my fellow classmates place, what could you have done?
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Old October 10, 2005, 02:43 PM   #2
blackmind
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Lose-Lose situation. Sorry.


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Old October 10, 2005, 02:58 PM   #3
leadcounsel
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To answer a few of your questions:

1) If you don't already CCW, get on that immediately and legally. Check state law on CCW laws and self defense. Most states allow non felons to own and carry concealed after a background check, nominal fee, course completion, and wait period.

2) I'm not advising you, but personally you have to ask yourself whether the law and school rules are more important than your life. Your life is more valuable than this arbitrary law/rule. If you carry properly, no one will find out. If you have to defend yourself, facing the DA will be better than death.

3) State law varies on self-defense. However, most states allow a person to defend himself with deadly force if presented with deadly force or imminent serious bodily injury -- this includes an attacker with any weapon or one or multiple attackers even if they are unarmed if a reasonable person would fear for his safety. So, yes a gang of 9 attacking you even if they are unarmed would satisfy this requirement.

4) I wouldn't be so concerned about them drawing their guns if you draw yours. It's like saying you don't want to make them mad at you while they're beating the tar out of you! If you are threatened, draw and shoot.

5) I've never been in a gun fight, but in my opinion I suspect that when shots start flying, people tend to flee. Thug mentality is to pick on the weak and defenseless and are opportunisitic. As soon as you draw and shoot a few in self defense, the others aren't gonna stick around and fight. They are cowards. That's why they travel in large packs and pick on lone weak victims by ambush. Whenever you're walking someplace, just put your hand discretely on the handle and be prepared to draw. Practice drawing and pointing the UNLOADED gun so you can do it in a flash.

6) As far as caliber, the more important concern is shot placement. Any caliber .38 and above will be a fine manstopper. Police in the US and worldwide carry and have carried the .38 and 9mm more than any other rounds. The .40 and .45 are great too. You just have to practice aiming and shot placement.

Good luck and be safe.
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Old October 10, 2005, 03:31 PM   #4
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I work as a cop in a college town and we too have been having a problem with gang violence, except here we call them fraternity's. It's become all too common to have one or two guys get assaulted by nine or ten or more guys, and beaten to the point where they have required hospitalization. If I were you, I'd get a can of pepper spray ( the fogger type) and a good pair of sneakers. If you get jumped spray them down and run like hell. If you get cornered, try to pick out the leader and go at him with everything youv'e got. Most of these punks are cowards at heart and you'd be surprised how quick they will back down when they come up against resistance.
As far as deadly force goes, in New York State feet= a deadly weapon. In theory, you'd be justified using dealdly force, but it would probably be a "tough sell" in a court of law. I guess you have to decide whose the bigger threat, a bunch of gang members or your states legal system.
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Old October 10, 2005, 03:35 PM   #5
Res O. Lushin
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Only option without breaking the law........transfer. Other than that, carry and risk commiting a crime every time you pocket it. Ask yourself, is one crime ok and another not. Nine guys are gonna get that can out of your hands pretty easily.
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Old October 10, 2005, 03:39 PM   #6
blackmind
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Okay, you're one of the nine guys coming after the victim; he pulls out a .357 mag (could be five shots, could be six, you don't know); sensing his immediate danger, he blasts THREE of your friends, right there in front of you.


Neither you nor the other five guys have guns of your own, or you'd be using them already (in which case, the defender was already toast and the discussion is moot).

You're going to keep on with the attack?


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Old October 10, 2005, 03:40 PM   #7
281 Quad Cam
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While it may seem dire... In many cases I find the victim may have put himself in terrible odds.

Out at 3am, obviously, everone can see that problem. Was there an interview, exchange of words? Did the student act like he was hot ****? Was the student a member of a certain race, group, or niche which hurt his odds? Obviously many college students are out and out retards, who may dress like P Diddy, and go around acting "hard" as it were. Ofcourse this might not be the case at all... Details would help. Gotta admit its less likely a gang would "beat down" a little skinny kid with Nintendo shirt - than someone who resembles a rival.

Anyway... You see what I'm getting at. If you like to go to clubs late at night, you are at increased odds from someone who plays computer games. Your lifestyle, appearance, and actions will go a long way to make or break you.

So maybe it's not so bad as it sounds. Keep your guard up.
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Old October 10, 2005, 03:42 PM   #8
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Blackmind... Depends on the situation. They might very well. Depending on proximity they could definatly see taking your weapon as a much better alternative than running away and being shot in the back.

Proximity could be inches... You cant just draw on people several yards away when they haven't made any threat against you. I've found some types of people like to get within inches before saying anything, even if it's only to ask for a smoke.

I still think the victim MAY have played a role in his beating here. Mouthing off when they insulted him from afar, etc. Who knows?
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Old October 10, 2005, 03:57 PM   #9
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I'm sorry this happened. But you either bleed in WHITE or live in YELLOW. A gun (or any other weapon) cannot prevent this, it can only help minimize the escalation and/or injury. Avoiding the situation in the first place should be our primary goal.

I don't care how good a shot you are or how many rounds of ammo you carry; if you allow nine scumbags to jump you you're going to be way behind the power curve. And if you are carrying a gun and you get efefctively jumped by these guys, there is a very good chance they will get a hold of your gun and use it on you.

Remember, we should all practice ADD - Avoidance, Deternece, and De-escalation.

JM2CW.
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Old October 10, 2005, 04:03 PM   #10
CarlosDJackal
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Quote:
Okay, you're one of the nine guys coming after the victim; he pulls out a .357 mag (could be five shots, could be six, you don't know); sensing his immediate danger, he blasts THREE of your friends, right there in front of you.


Neither you nor the other five guys have guns of your own, or you'd be using them already (in which case, the defender was already toast and the discussion is moot).

You're going to keep on with the attack?
The folly with this argument is you are making the (optimistic) assumption that the victim can get his or her gun out fast enough to blast three of the nine. Conduct a Tueller drill with Airsoft or Simmunitions guns sometime and you will see just how the odds are stacked against you.

Specially with nine attackers. You're better off turning and running if you have that much time to begin with. Because I don't know of very many people who can effectively "blast" three out of nine attackers in the dark and who had the advantage to begin with with a 6-shot revolver.

We're talking reality here, none of this Hollyweird crap. There is a good chance some of the the actual attackers were armed but chose not to shoot the victim because beating him into a pulp was just a lot more "fulfilling" than capping him. JM2CW.
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Old October 10, 2005, 04:10 PM   #11
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I'm sorry, but if you can't see 9, yes 9 attackers coming for you in the 1 second it takes to draw a gun, then you are asking to get yourself tarred and feathered and you are such an oblivion that you should not be carrying a gun.

Give me a scenario where it's 3am and you're walking home and 9 people can jump you without 1 second warning... you can see/hear 9 people from 50 feet away. If you're alert and have your hand on your gun like you should be, you'll be fine.

If there's a situation where you don't have time to draw, then you aren't going to have time to run.

Besides, running is probably futile. With 9 people and an ambush, don't you think they surrounded this student? As he was getting his butt whipped, don't you think it occurred to him to run like the dickens?

Everyone has a sixth sense if you just tune into it. If your walking at 3am and your gut tells you somethings' amiss, listen to it and leave the situation. If that's not an option, prepare to defend yourself.
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Old October 10, 2005, 04:26 PM   #12
Res O. Lushin
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Quote:
Okay, you're one of the nine guys coming after the victim; he pulls out a .357 mag (could be five shots, could be six, you don't know); sensing his immediate danger, he blasts THREE of your friends, right there in front of you.


Neither you nor the other five guys have guns of your own, or you'd be using them already (in which case, the defender was already toast and the discussion is moot).

You're going to keep on with the attack?
I was talking about a can of mace, not a .357 mag. A can of mace on nine guys would p!ss them off rather than make them run away.

I think we are missing the point, he is on campus. It is illegal to carry on campus, so I don't think anyone here advocates carrying a gun where they aren't supposed to?
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Old October 10, 2005, 04:34 PM   #13
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I wouldn't bet on that, remember the old saying "better tried by 12 than carried by 6?"
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Old October 10, 2005, 04:42 PM   #14
pax
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Quote:
I think we are missing the point, he is on campus. It is illegal to carry on campus, so I don't think anyone here advocates carrying a gun where they aren't supposed to?
I would never advocate that someone else break the law. But see my sig.

pax

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -- Robert A. Heinlein
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Old October 10, 2005, 04:50 PM   #15
FLA2760
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re nine guy attack

Gee I was afraid for my life after they said they would shove MY gun up my a--
so I had to shoot. These scum are like rats shoot a few of them and they will more than likely beat feet. If they are dumb enough to stay empty the magazine and go for your BUG. That is if you are one of the "paranoid" non-LEOs like me that carry a BUG. As far as shooting an unarmed person remember that there is a gun present at the scene YOURS! If he gets it you are DEAD. We carry them to PROTECT OURSELVES. getting set upon by nine guys is a back to the wall target session at least for me. Those left standing tell the story. Be safe
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Old October 10, 2005, 06:49 PM   #16
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Technically, if they are kicking you in the head or hitting you with some sort of object that can be lethal force and you can respond back with lethal force. How many kicks to the head do you think you can take before you die? One good shot and it's all over.

When I was in college I ran a few times. UC is in a pretty crappy neighborhood and one night I was walking, pretty dark out, and some guy I couldn't even see steps out of a doorway right behind me and I can hear him walking really fast. I didn't even look behind me, I just took off. Don't know if he had any intentions with me but I wasn't about to find out.
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Old October 10, 2005, 08:21 PM   #17
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Gang Thoughts.

Attacks like this do happen. I agree there are many details and variables not mentioned in the story. This seems to be an important discussion, for I feel...and this is just personally, not a fact...that some of the most common marks of any violence are younger people, particularly women, and of course older folks.

I myself have almost been attacked by a gang of frat guys when I was at my friend's party. It was a long distance travel to the party and it was for his graduation. I was among friends and this frat guy just started calling my friend names. He then started calling female friends names as well as other friends. He was trying to START a fight as he knew his 10-15 frat buds would have his back. I asked him what the problem was and he told us he was going to beat all of us up, etc...only not in such nice language. Anyway, I asked him very very nicely if there was anything we could do to just keep the gathering "calm" etc. He said only if we left the party. Well, instead of fighting a huge group of guys, I gathered my friends and we left. It was difficult because my other friends aren't into "avoidance" but, luckily nobody got in a fight. I did see all the frat guys come out to see that we "got in our cars" etc. I wasn't carrying that night, as it was a party and I had more than one drink, but I was not "drunk." I don't think drinking and any weapon mix. So I used my brain and gladly...nothing happened. Pride is not worth that kind of blood.

I think leadcounsel has some good points. Others also have valid points.

1. Be aware!

2. Don't put yourself in a risky situation (out at 3:00am when you don't have to be).

3. Be prepared to fight hard or run quickly. DISTANCE is your friend and you should be able to maximize it in most situations you stay aware of.

4. If you carry and draw...only do so to fire, do not do it to intimidate. Gangs can smell fear. Only draw to fire when you are in fear of your life.

5. When you fire, immediately make distance and take cover. You don't shoot a gun like in the movies...two footed and everyone falls like water. You will have to move and make distance to survive any gunfight or fight for that matter. I feel if you fired upon an attacking gang and you made distance, chances are they would either scatter, give up, take cover themselves, or chase you...hopefully you are faster and better trained in mindset/skills to handle the defensive situation they have put upon you.

6. They probably won't attack you if they feel you have a good offense ready. Don't talk "crap" to anyone...but carry yourself well and be aware. Just don't look like a mark. Don't be "tough" just be "ready."

7. Carrying when in a restricted area is a personal choice. Weigh the risks.

8. Even a great martial artist would have trouble surviving an immediate gang attack with their numbers being 9 or above...actually it'd be unlikely. It'd be better to run in that situation.

9. Again..avoidance and just be prepared.

All right, I don't know if I have added anything here. I hate the whole "gang" situation in our world, but it's been going on for ages since we were in tribes, etc. Refuse to be prey, but don't live in total fear of predators. Just be prepared to deal with the situations a predator might attempt to place on you.
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Old October 10, 2005, 11:12 PM   #18
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Dobes make good walking buddies...

I always like walks with my dobies... One problem with 'gangs'...is that many of these gangs are composed of juveniles... and if you pull a gun on one in self-defense...you can picture the newspaper headline: 'Unarmed Child Killed by Frightened Jogger with Gun' . It doesn't matter to some folks if the unarmed child was pretending to have a gun and was part of a gang that did have a few guns... The gangmembers will be the eyewitnesses...and you will be having to put your word against their's... I'd go for screaming help into the cell phone ... but if you must jog... or walk in certain areas...I'd recommend jogging/walking with a well-trained dog or two and to carry a cellphone... A gun is a last resort. Some situations are 'unavoidable' and the nasty thing about predators - is that they will catch you off guard!
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Old October 11, 2005, 12:55 AM   #19
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I guess I will be the first one to say this - If you are attacked by 9 gang members you will probably lose.

So fight like a devil and get yourself a honor guard into Valhalla.
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Old October 11, 2005, 10:01 AM   #20
281 Quad Cam
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Quote:
So fight like a devil and get yourself a honor guard into Valhalla.
I think this could seriously be the coolest thing ever said on TFL.
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Old October 11, 2005, 07:24 PM   #21
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In that situation, disaprity of force becomes the reason to allow the use of deadly force on the part of the 1. Disparity of force can be numbers, strength, age,sex, or whatever gives one party an "unfair" advantage. In that scenario, even allowing for the use of deadly force, you would have to be praying that the simple act of putting rounds downrange (hopefully hitting a few of the members) would cause the pack to turn and flee. Any other way and you still get your head kicked in...
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