The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 10, 2005, 09:08 AM   #26
jsp98m3
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2005
Posts: 205
I worry about some people. Just in case.

Your arguments for having to always have the guns just in case do not answer some of my original questions of this type of thinking. Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits. You are much more likely to need them.

The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?

Etc, etc.

I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'.

If you can't, I understand.
jsp98m3 is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 09:08 AM   #27
JohnLizCas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 162
Carrying

I read these articles and take what they say with a grain of salt. After all they are mostly opinions (which everyone is entitled to). Here in NJ we don't even have an option to carry. It burns me up that we dont even have the option to become "paranoid". LOL John
JohnLizCas is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 09:41 AM   #28
EIGHTYDUECE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2001
Posts: 416
Your house will probably never burn down, yet you will still buy insurance and check smoke detector batteries.

I don't understand what you mean by carrying to the bathroom. Are you saying that while at Wal-Mart, you should put your gun in your car and then return to the store to use the bathroom? If at home there is no reason to carry so the bathroom statement should not apply there.

I think most that first get their CCW will carry everywhere for awhile, then it becomes more of a "depending on the situation type of thing". I feel no reason to carry at grandmothers house...etc. yet If I must go to the laundry mat after dark then, the pistol follows.

It all depends on where you live also. If you live in an upscale neaborhood where crime is a very extreme rarety, then I see your point. But if you live in an apartment complex that has hade at least to armed mugging in the parking lot after hours (like where I live) then you tend to carry more often.
__________________
"KNEES IN THE BREEZE"

I'm the same fellow as Captain H (found my old password )
EIGHTYDUECE is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 09:46 AM   #29
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp98m3
Your arguments for having to always have the guns just in case do not answer some of my original questions of this type of thinking. Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits. You are much more likely to need them.
You know the answer to these silly questions. It's plainly obvious why we do not wear lightening rods on our heads, and/or carry bee and snake venom kits. It's not practical - and a bite by either, rarely results in instant death - there is time to seek medical attention in most cases.

Though, if I were walking in rattlesnake country, I might just have a venom kit. However, I'm rather confident that I'm not going to be bitten by a rattlesnake on my way to the grocery store. I can't say the same about being mugged, beaten, or killed.

On the other hand, people do die quickly from a gunshot wound. Last time I looked into it, dialing 911 while dead from a gunshot wound, is pretty difficult. Hence the practical need to carry the "bad guy kit", or firearm as we call it. A practical solution to a problem - regardless of the apparent frequency in which the problem occurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp98m3
The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?
We have airbags, seat belts, side impact beams...etc. Again, these are practical solutions for a problem (auto accidents) - in lieu of "bubble wrap". Pretty funny though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp98m3
I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'.
You find me amusing? I'm confused, now. I've never carried a concealed weapon in my life (you see, it's illegal in Wisconsin), so surely I cannot be this "wacko" type that you speak of. But, if talking down to members of this board makes you feel superior, I'm willing to take it with a grain of salt.
Trip20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:11 AM   #30
Clinot
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2005
Posts: 25
I can see where Jim is coming from, as a responsible gun owner it is a bit strange to share the same space with others that I honestly do not consider responsible gun owners.

Some posts that I have read here leave me to think that the poster lives his/her life for the gun and envisions pretty much any solution where they get the chance to act the hero or stand in for a law enforcement officer with that tool. Or that same poster is so paranoid about their environment that while they have honed their observation skills upward to take awareness of their situations, while they honed down their ability for a little common sense and good judgement.

A lot of those posts really do great justice for the anti-gun crowd, and honestly if I were in their shoes and reading some of the material presented by some of the more shall we say exotic users, I too would be passing around a Brady petition to get weapons out of hands of these people.

But people are people, and I hope that a lot of what I read is just online-bravado.
Clinot is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:17 AM   #31
PythonGuy
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 456
Trip20,

Relax dude, he's just trying to make a point and voice his opinion, don't be so defensive, it makes you sound para......
PythonGuy is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:32 AM   #32
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinot
A lot of those posts really do great justice for the anti-gun crowd, and honestly if I were in their shoes and reading some of the material presented by some of the more shall we say exotic users, I too would be passing around a Brady petition to get weapons out of hands of these people.
I don't believe you. You’re more intelligent than this.

Contrary to popular belief, the streets are not running with blood due to the paranoid, gun-obsessed wacko gun owners... One would think they are, based on some of the things you read on TFL (especially in the Tactics & Training forum).

I think you've nailed it with bravado. Harmless in and of itself - but harmful in the opinion it facilitates.
Trip20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:43 AM   #33
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
I think that anyone calling guns a "fetish" object is quite possibly seeing himself in others -- othewise known as "projecting."

I mean, where does one get off saying that anyone who simply has decided to keep a gun at ready as much of the time as possible is "fetishizing" the gun, rather than just "opting to be prepared"? Does this person KNOW everyone about whom he speaks?? I carry when I go to the beach, but usually when I go, I carry a roll-top "dry bag" for use on my kayak. I keep more than just a gun there; I keep my wallet, money, cellular phone, etc. as well.

JSP, who are you to pass such judgment on others just because you feel there are times when you have some sort of magical protection that means you won't end up needing a gun in a dire situation?

-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:43 AM   #34
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by PythonGuy
Relax dude, he's just trying to make a point and voice his opinion, don't be so defensive, it makes you sound para......
That's not all he's doing. He said it himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp98m3
Do you think I post the way I do to be a troublemaker? Well maybe a little I am definitely a chain yanker at times.
He knows what he's doing - and it's not "just trying to make a point and voice his opinion". You don't bring up lightening rods and such... unless your now just trying to be a "chain yanker"... I'm perfectly willing to listen to reasonable discussion. He's being unreasonable in a few areas, that's all. I've taken it upon myself to point those areas out, just as you've taken it upon yourself to be the defender of jsp98m3.

Now hold on, I think I just heard something downstairs. I'm going code sea-foam green (not sure what that signifies). I'll let you all know how it turns out.
Trip20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:47 AM   #35
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp98m3
I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'.

If you can't, I understand.

Man, you seem to be one condescending dude. I can hardly believe you would trot this kind of rhetoric out, here.

Someone said it smacks of anti... I am strongly inclined to agree. It has the same elitist "I get to be amused by how weird or stupid or paranoid you are, from my throne on the Mount of Normality" stink. :barf:


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:49 AM   #36
DocFox
Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Location: Chattanooga,TN
Posts: 92
This may not be the wisest choice for a first post...but, oh well...

First, from a psychological standpoint, people engaged in casual conversation or conversation aimed at "impressing" others tend to not verbalize true intent, but instead relay emotion. In other words.. Bravado...

Secondly, jsp98m3 , although the statistic is about 4 years old, the last study I have seen showed that LESS than 1% of CCW holders have had their permits revoked for criminal behavior. While not perfect, it would seem that the numbers are in our favor of excluding the "nuts" , that would carry anyway.

Third... is it truly irrational paranoia to carry everywhere possible? That is merely a matter of perspective. Do I carry a gun to the bathroom in my own home, yes. Have I always, no. Why did I change? Simple, Over the years there has been a steady increase of home invasions (in nice neighborhoods I should add) and it boils down to one simple fact, IF it happened, do I want my gun closer to them , or closer to me. It is a matter of keeping control of your weapon, not excited anticipation of "getting to use my piece".

Fourth... Consider this fact... The criminals know where a person may or may not legally carry a weapon... where do you believe they will choose to mug/rob/rape/kidnap someone?

Finally... I agree that some comments are disconcerting, but this is true about conversations involving religion, politics and many other subjects. Whether you open your mind and look at the world from an unbiased perspective, or simply form a quick opinion is ultimately your choice... please do enjoy the freedom to do so.
DocFox is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 10:56 AM   #37
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
I disagree DocFox. That was a very good first post.
Trip20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 11:59 AM   #38
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocFox
Do I carry a gun to the bathroom in my own home, yes. Have I always, no. Why did I change? Simple, Over the years there has been a steady increase of home invasions (in nice neighborhoods I should add) and it boils down to one simple fact, IF it happened, do I want my gun closer to them , or closer to me. It is a matter of keeping control of your weapon, not excited anticipation of "getting to use my piece".

+1!

Doc, good points.

It seems to me that JSP is inclined toward thinking that anyone who wishes to never be caught with his pants down (pun intended) is paranoid.

When I shower, I do bring my little pack into the bathroom with me. I imagine how I'd feel if I heard the front door shoved in and realized, "Crap! I left my piece in the living room/bedroom/closet!" If it is no trouble to STAY prepared, why would one ever allow oneself to be UNprepared? Bravado? Should I want to "challenge" myself, or allow the home invader some sort of more level playing field? Even his chances? NO. I want to stack the odds as much in my favor as possible.

There is no downside that I can think of to keeping the gun close by even when in the home. I think that anyone who allows himself to relax his guard just because he's home either lives in a fortified bunker (and his attitude is warranted) or he is fooling himself about his security and may just be the one who is unprepared for the unexpected intruder. Home invasions DO happen. Residents do NOT get to choose when and how. Sometimes it's the guy who "just ran out of gas and needs to use the phone." Other times, it's the dude who just bashes the door with no warning. Other times, it's the guy who sneaks in during the night when everyone's asleep, and gets discovered in the dark hallway.

I'd like JSP to explain why it's unwise to keep a firearm close by, just in case. What's the harm of doing it -- "seeming paranoid"? Who cares how I seem? I want to be ready.

-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 01:11 PM   #39
Severian
Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 36
this is directed at nobody and everybody in particular

---Though I may disagree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it.---

Don't focus on the individual. It is the spirit, the essence of the right that needs championing.

People will never cease to disappoint.

Everyone* has the right to get a license and drive a car. Should they ALL? No.

Everyone has the right to vote. Should they ALL vote? NO,NO,NO.

Everyone has the right to procreate and multiply. Should they ALL? Heck NO.

Everyone has the right to own a gun (and once officially allowed, to CCW). Should EVERYBODY own and/or carry a gun? NO.

The point is...

Everyone has these rights. However, I also answered NO to all the above. It is MY mind, MY opinion, MY standards that "everyone" is held up to.
Luckily, I have no executive power (my Beginner's Benevolent Dictator Kit Mk.I has yet to arrive in the mail) and thus everyone retains these rights.

I also enjoy these rights. I am the greatest driver to sail the streets. My political and dictatorial prowess is uncanny at the very least. My genes are of a stock greater than Nature has ever witnessed. I am a very responsible gun owner.

All kidding aside. I would be very cross indeed if these rights (of which I humbly feel I am qualified for) were to be restricted. It doesnt matter if some dumb-butt drives recklessly, father's 14 felonious seeds, or goes crazy with a gun. It is not right to punish the whole for the mistakes of the dumb.

There are 6+ billion people in the world. How many would you actually trust with a gun? Procreating? Driving? Voting? Truthfully answer that and you'll see that only YOU truly are qualified.

Me, I like my guns. I'll have em till some higher power takes them. Then I'll be powerless and sad.

If you read closely, there's a little sarcasm, a little humor, and a little truth in there.

Take no offence. What do I know, I'm just a dum bass.


*everyone in a loose, not literal sense, please.

Last edited by Severian; October 11, 2005 at 09:30 AM.
Severian is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 01:59 PM   #40
gddyup
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2005
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 219
+1 for DocFox. I hope to see more of your ideas and thoughts posted in TFL. Good to have you aboard.
__________________
Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob!


"Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein
gddyup is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 02:08 PM   #41
DocFox
Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Location: Chattanooga,TN
Posts: 92
Thank all of you for your kindness, I only hope to contribute in a positive manner.
DocFox is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 02:41 PM   #42
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by severian
Everyone* has the right to get a license and drive a car. Should they ALL? No.

Everyone has the right to vote. Should they ALL vote? NO,NO,NO.

Everyone has the right to procreate and multiply. Should they ALL? Heck NO.

Everyone has the right to own a gun (and once officially allowed, to CCW). Should EVERYBODY have a gun and be allowed to carry concealed? NO.
Look carefully at how you phrased this.

For voting, driving, procreating, you finished with "SHOULD they?"

For gun and carry, you finished with "SHOULD THEY HAVE BE ALLOWED TO?"

That is quite different from the others. I would possibly agree with questioning whether some people SHOULD (period), but NOT with whether they should be allowed to. Why the subtly different phrasing?

-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 02:43 PM   #43
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Driving is a privilege, not a right.
Trip20 is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 04:17 PM   #44
CarlosDJackal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 109
Quote:
To my knowledge there is no way for LEO's to verify that you are not a goofball before issuing a permit. Now they might be able to do it except they would probably violate your other rights to do it. I think that most nut jobs eventually run into some type of trouble with the law...
Correct. The only thing we can check is if this individual has a criminal record and sometimes, if they have had mental problems. This is no different that someone obtaining a driver's license, a pilot's license, or a hunting license.

So basically the problem you have is not with CCW but with society in general. In other words you feel that the Constitution should not apply to "goofballs" regardless of whether or not they are criminals or law-abiding citizens. This is a very dangerous thing because this type of thinking is exactly what the Constituion is trying to prevent. This is the same exact thinking the nazis held except they actually specifically labelled Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, non-nazis and indidivudals who are not of Aryan decent as "goofballs".

I am personally of the opinion that anyone who wants to carry legally should be required to attend some sort of training within a certain number of weeks after they are issued a permit. This way anyone who needs a permit now, can obtain a "temporary permit" now and just get the training within a reasonable amount of time. With the ability to conduct a criminal background check instantly, this should not be a problem. The temporary permit can be good for 30, 60, or 90-days after which the holder needs to present proof of their technical, legal, and mental competency before they can be issued a permanent permit.

JM2CW.
CarlosDJackal is offline  
Old October 10, 2005, 04:53 PM   #45
CarlosDJackal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 109
Quote:
...Why not wear a lightning rod on your head?...
Because the chances of getting hit by lighting is so remote it's not really worth carrying a lighting rod. Plus the utility of wearing such a device is very much questionable because it is more likely to attract a strike than prevent it.

Quote:
...Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits. You are much more likely to need them.
People who are fatally allergic to bee stings should carry bee sting kits iwth them. The same with people who live in areas where there are a lot of agressive snakes.

Your numbers are ridiculously bogus and you are full of crap. I've been stung by bees exactly twice in my 41 years. I've never been bitten by snakes and the closest I ever came to it was when a Water Mocassin tried to slither onto the canoe I was riding while on the Chatahoochee River in Georgia. It never did try to bite me or anything - it was just looking for a ride (as far as I can tell).

But in the same number of years, I've been shot at once and had a loaded gun pointed at my face. So that's at least two instances where it would have been nice for me to have one of my own.

Quote:
The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?
Because bubble wrap is not very comfortable and would actually act as a catalyst in case of fire. But in lieu of bubble wrap, I wear a seatbelt, both my vehicles have airbags, and I have collision insurance. Even if I did not have any of these, I would still drive defensively. By your logic, just because you do not expect to get a flat there is no reason to have a spare tire and jack in your car.

Quote:
I don't care if you carry your gun to the crapper. I find you amusing. I think you all would be healthier people inside your own little heads if you admitted that its 'all about the gun'...
A gun is a tool of last resort. Let me repeat that only louder: A GUN IS A TOOL OF LAST RESORT. I liken it to a reserve parachute when skydiving or Paratrooping. The only thing worse than getting into a position where you need to use one is getting into a position where you wish you had one (been there). As we used to say in Alaska: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." This is why I carry one in the crapper.

Contrary to your narrow-minded way of looking at this, it is not about the gun. If there was a better tool with which I could walk around with, I would. If light sabers were real, I'd walk around with one and train to be a Jedi Knight. If I could wear some sort of talisman that would guarantee my safety in any situation, I would wear that. The only reason I carry a handgun is because it is hard to conceal my CAR-15 (you sheeple would panic if I started doing this).

I lock the doors of my house not because I've had someone try to break in, but because I don't want to make it any easier for anyone to try. I carry a gun not because I am paranoid, but because I have common sense. To paraphrase Clint Smith: "People ask me how why I am so paranoid. I ask them why should I be paranoid, I have a gun!!" JM2CW.
CarlosDJackal is offline  
Old October 11, 2005, 09:35 AM   #46
Severian
Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 36
thanks blackmind.

No subtlety intended...once it's typed I tend to move on and not look back closely enough. I meant to place those rights on the same level and should have worded the last one more similar to the others. I think I was more focused on humor by that point (trying to lighten things up).

I don't post much, so please excuse my mistakes.
Severian is offline  
Old October 11, 2005, 10:07 AM   #47
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
No worries.


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 11, 2005, 10:16 AM   #48
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
Carlos

I have not been on this thread so as I was reading it I was thinking of some answers. Just about the time I see it is winding down to give me a chance to post I read your post.

Good one. Pretty much where I was going. But you did it first and better I am sure.

Virgina is/was the leader in producing the 'on the leading edge' when we needed a Constitution, I see they are still hanging in there.

Thanks it saved me some time to look at the news and read how our rights are evaporating as we type.

Common Law and common sense, Natural law and the law of nature. Biological functions are part of our nature, others should get used to it. All houses should have indoor plumbing.
Lets be civilized and agree with me.

Harley
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old October 11, 2005, 10:27 AM   #49
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
PythonGuy:

"Does that apply to only gun owners, what about the kid who makes a mistake breaking into a car and house and gets himself killed? What if its your son? Will you be happy an armed citizen ended the threat then, when its only property. This is a very tough subject for pro gun people to deal with, but we have to if we want to maintain our rights."

My dad always told me not to to break into peoples houses at night, vandalize, etc. because I'd likely be shot. He probably wouldn't have been happy about it, but he made it clear to me that if I was exhibiting some sort of criminal behavior, especially on someone else's property, I was on my own.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old October 11, 2005, 10:52 AM   #50
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
Jim:

"Why not wear a lightning rod on your head? Why not always carry bee and snake venom kits."

"The majority of people in America will be involved in an auto accident eventually. Why not wrap yourself in bubble wrap every morning?"

Lightning rod? Wouldn't work. Besides, it would require a major lifestyle change.

Bee kit? I have a buddy who keeps one in every car he drives or rides in, even though he hasn't been stung in 30 years. He's allergic, and a bee sting could kill him. I'm not allergic, so inconceivable I would die from a bee sting.

Snake venom kit? Are you talking about those kits with the little suction thing? I was told they're ineffective. If you are talking about something that is effective and not cost-prohibitive, let me know. I spend a lot of time in snake country. I saw 2 yesterday. My son stepped on a snake in my front yard yesterday, too. I never saw that one.

(I hear pythons are getting out of control around here. Does anyone have a kit that will stop a snake that will swallow a six-foot 'gator? )

Bubble wrap? I wear my seatbelt religiously. Seatbelts are effective; bubble wrap would not be effective. Also, wearing bubble wrap would require a major lifestyle change.

Bubble wrap, bee sting kits, and personal lightning rods are poor analogies. All are ineffective and would require and/or would require a huge change in the way you live your life.

Carrying a snubby revolver in my pocket does not require much of a change in lifestyle for me. I have to wear pants with big pockets, and I have to avoid conflict. As a result I wear more comfortable pants, behave in a more civilized manner and I am safer. If you feel the gun owns me, that the gun makes me what I am, then so be it. Guns made me a better person.
wayneinFL is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13144 seconds with 7 queries