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Old October 8, 2005, 06:48 AM   #26
KyJim
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A secondary factor to consider when choosing a home defense weapon is how it will appear to LEO and prosecutors after the fact. It is not the most important factor but you should at least think about it.

A 12 guage shotgun loaded with #6 or #4 shot is a hunting weapon employed for self-defense (sorry, no pistol grip). An AR-15 type weapon is a high powered military assault rifle purchased by a fanatic just waiting for someone to wander into their sights. A handgun is somewhere in between.

I know the above paragraph is not true, but if you live in a city/state which is anti-gun, you must take this into consideration. I know there are at least a couple of states that actually say you have a duty to retreat from your home if possible.

As for me, I use a 12 guage with #6 shot along with either a .357 mag or .45 ACP.
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Old October 8, 2005, 09:18 AM   #27
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A> In a urban/suburban setting, I feel that any of the assault rifle/carbine solutions are unwise, just because you really can't tell where that round will end up going, and they WILL shoot through as many walls as there are -- unless frangible bullets are used, and I'm not convinced about their terminal effectiveness.
B> In that same setting, pistols are not all that much better, for the same reason.
C> Shotgun slugs are even worse.
D> The old shotgun standby -- 00 Buckshot -- overpenetrates walls as well.
E> Unfortunately, birdshot doesn't really penetrate enough in the BG to reliably take him down.

Keep in mind that solutions A-D are all at least acceptable with respect to terminal effectiveness on the BG. But they all have associated risk of overpenetration of interior/exterior walls, and that makes them less than ideal in an urban/suburban setting.

My conclusion: The best solution is a shotgun loaded with buckshot in the #4 to #1 range -- big enough to adequately penetrate the BG, not so large as to shoot all the way through the house.

Family plan: Excellent idea.

Hostage situation: If faced with a hostage situation, My Most Humble Opinion is that the lone civilian homeowner is going to be ill-equiped and ill-prepared to deal with that situation no matter what he is equiped with. Hostage rescues are mucho sticky situations. I'd advise the wise homeowner to back off enough to not further aggravate the situation and yet make sure that the BG doesn't abscond with the hostage -- and then call 911. This is a job for the pros, let them do it, they have the training and equipment to do the job right. If Johnny Hotshot Homeowner armed with whatever goes barging in with gun(s) ablaze, in all likelihood the hostage is gonna get killed.
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Old October 8, 2005, 09:34 AM   #28
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"A 12 guage shotgun loaded with #6 or #4 shot is a hunting weapon employed for self-defense (sorry, no pistol grip)."

Valid point, but then again so is a shotgun rigged for deer hunting loaded with buckshot, IMHO a more potent SD/HD combination. Besides that, it has a shorter, handier barrel with a choke more suited to the SD/HD role than a gun with a longer barrel that has a tighter choke designed for bird hunting.

"I know the above paragraph is not true, but if you live in a city/state which is anti-gun, you must take this into consideration."

I give thanks every day that where I live is NOT one of those places. Where I am here in Ga and back home in Tx they are really reasonable about that sort of thing. A good shoot is a good shoot, what is used is really irrelevant from a legal liability standpoint -- as it should be.
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Old October 8, 2005, 04:13 PM   #29
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Penitration is going to be a problem with almost every caliber out there, I would go with a shotgun. If you want accuracy get some slugs.
If you have to shoot I would hope you knew where everyone in your family is.
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Old October 8, 2005, 07:26 PM   #30
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You've got a nice board here.

My 2ยข is a pump .12GA/short barrel/my personal
preference is a Defender/ with #4 or#5 shot. It's a
100% winner, every time. Can't miss! I got my
first introduction in '68 - Tet - Hue. Never missed
a beat, never missed my man ... in 1 1/2 weeks of
house to house/street to street. ... except we
weren't using no stinkin birdshot! LOL
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Old October 8, 2005, 08:29 PM   #31
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Premium self-defense .223 ammunition will not overpenetrate. In fact, it often penetrates less than handgun ammunition.

In fact, even FMJ (not AP) .223 won't penetrate as deeply as .45 or 9mm FMJ.

Check out the graphics on this page.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Note that the two military issue 5.56 FMJ rounds penetrates only a couple of cm farther than the lowly .38spl +P LSWCHP.

May not seem intuitive but it's true.
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Old October 8, 2005, 11:28 PM   #32
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Y'all forgot about one small carbine. The M-1 Carbine, with its 110 gr. FMJ / SP rounds, it'll make short order of a BG in your 10-20 / AO. Or even a Winchester Carbine or Trapper in .30-30 downloaded with 125 gr. HP or 110 gr. as stated above. I keep a nice old Universal M-1 Carbine loaded with 15 rounds of UMC 110 gr. FMJ for BG's and the M-1911A1 .45 ACP and eight rounds of PMC 230 gr. FMJ too. Plus, the Pit Bull.

If I have to use these too, I will. My M-1 Garand Bayonet or my M-1 Carbine Bayonet, or the Ka Bar, yes, I not only own an M-1 Garand Bayonet, I own the rifle too. CMP Greek H&R dated to 8-54. I can zip off a groundhog at 400 yards with it too.
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Old October 8, 2005, 11:54 PM   #33
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A .357 magnum (125 Gr sjhp) only penetrated one wall (two sheets of drywall and the thin plywood cabinet door under the sink. It bounced off the stove or dryer (metal) and lay in the middle if the floor.

When the chick in the apartrment accross the sidewalk shot at the wall next to her window when someone was trying to breaK IN THE 9MM went through the inside drywall and the outer stucco wall and the cops found the bullet about six feet from the wall in the grass.

BTW i shot a tempered car glass window (rear window glass it think) came accross in the desert with a 115 gr 9mm FMJ. the bullet shattered the glass but STOPPED. It was in the pile of glass in the ground.

Anyways these are my experinces your milage may vary...
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Old October 9, 2005, 01:27 AM   #34
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But what did the 158 gr. .357 Mag. do?
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Old October 10, 2005, 07:21 PM   #35
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I got the 9mm Beretta Cx4 for range practice and for personal defense. I am very pleased with it. Good modest length, accurate, reliable, modular, easy to strip down and maintain and best of al.....I'm completely left hand dominant. Thank you Beretta for thinking of the south paw.
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Old October 10, 2005, 07:38 PM   #36
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The M1 cabine will make a great HD weapon.

If you lived say next to a druggie house and there was a real danger of some bad dudes going to your house by mistake... to say rob drug dealin' neigbor but got the numbers mixed up.. then yea you will be faceing at least four real bad hombres. The M1 Carbine will make a great equalizer if you have one.
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Old October 11, 2005, 05:06 AM   #37
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Ramcharger, I concur!
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Old October 11, 2005, 08:49 AM   #38
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Thanks for all the good info guys. What I am hearing is that everyone argrees that the 12 gauge is at least acceptable. No one seems to think that the 12 gauge is a bad choice. Some think that carbine is good choice but some also think that it is not the best choice. If the majority rules it would be the shotgun.
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Old October 11, 2005, 10:54 AM   #39
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Shotgun v. AR? Well, what about continuity of training? I run a semi-auto, mag fed pistol at work as my primary defense. Working a slide-action shotgun is a whole nuther animal. This means two types of training, two types of motor function.

What about varying users? Husband, wife, children, parents, aunts, uncles, friends.....just who might be called upon to use this weapon to protect themselves or another? Can my mom, for example, use that 870? More importantly, can she use it effectively, including reloading, and not worry about short-stroking the slide? Will my nephew be able to employ the Mossy 590 and save my bacon when that rabid dog is circling me?

After thinking about the types of people that might need to use one of my carbines, and nothing else, I had to take factors than penetration into account. My choice, after doing all this question asking, was to go with an AR. I didn't come to this conclusing immediately.

Like some, I thought to keep things as simple as possible and chose the Marlin Camp Carbine M45 for home defense. What better for a HD carbine than something chambered for my pistol caliber and using my pistol magazines? Bad idea!

While the longer bbl give ample time for a +P powdercharge to achieve full burn, thus increasing the power in the bullet, the platform sucked big ones. Marlin really dropped the ball with this carbine, and should be ashamed.

After that experience, I opted for the AR in a fairly simply M4-style. The flat-top receiver will allow me to mount an optical sight should I ever decide to, but I probably won't. The railed forend, just recently purchased, drops straight in, no mods/gunsmiths, and gives me a place to mount a flashlight so I can ID perps in the darkened interior. The collapsing stock allows me to shorten the LOP when plinking in heavy winter clothes, or to train my little nephew on basic marksmanship, or for some lady that might like to shoot.

Nothing fancy, no frills to go wrong, and a minimum invested.

For in-house ammo, my barrel has a 1/7" twist. Because this is rather fast, I chose to load up the first mag with UMC 45g JHP ammo. From what I gather, the fast twist of the barrel will make this round very unstable after contact, with a max of around 8" of penetration in gelatin. The chances of it being a great danger after penetrating a wall, esp the walls in this old farmhouse, are slim. The backup mag on the buttstock is loaded with 55g FMJ, just in case I need penetration or harder hitting power for a rabid dog or barrier penetration.

With a good two-point sling (I'm trying the VTAC) and a light source, you have a short, light, maneuverable carbine that is good for plinking, training, and defense. Nothing fancy. No frills to go wrong. And a minimum invested.

Just my thoughts, though. Your mileage may vary.
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Old October 11, 2005, 11:48 AM   #40
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I can't believe all the falacies presented in this thread....

And I am not going to take the time to try to debunk each.

Suffice it to say I am very well trainned with hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of formal firearm trainning and a career of experience in handling and conducting in building raids and searches of the sort this issue most addresses. Have experienced a hostage scenario a time or two also, though no one ever had to be shot...

That said - I choose the same two long arms I use for my current gun games. (3 gun matches) The Remington 11-87 in 12 ga and my Colt AR15. The SG is loaded with #4 bridshot when at home and a few extra slugs in the butt carrier. The AR is loaded with Hornady TAP. I use different ammo at work for both. As far as I'm concerned, they represent the best weapons available for HD - I own many different types of weapons already mentioned here from which I could have chosen... My biggest problem is which I grab in the case of something going on in my house. But not to worry, the wife will have the other one!

Just my opinions mind.
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Old October 11, 2005, 04:57 PM   #41
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Yorec, at least tell me about the TAP ammo. What weight are you shooting? How's the penetration? Secondary penetration after the gelatin block? Performance against animals? Don't tease me, now!
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Old October 11, 2005, 06:41 PM   #42
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Joven, believe it or not, there are more carbine configurations available out there than there are oppinions on your thread". Do you hunt at all? A multipurpose carbine, one that can be used for plinking, hunting and home defense might be just what you are looking for.

.30cal M1 Carbine - An oldy but a goody from WWII

Ruger 44mag Carbine - Older models have tubular magazines. Newer models are clip fed. The .44 mag is a bit much for home defense inside a frame and sheetrock house, but they are very fun to shoot.

Marlin .45acp or 9mm Camp Carbines - I don't know if they are still making these but they were quick little rifles.

Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 - A good all around weapon. Sure there weapons out there that are better, but the Mini configuration is a great all around/versitile package. I personally prefer the Mini-30.

The list of carbines and their good/bad points is endless, I think you are going to need at least a couple.
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Old October 11, 2005, 07:46 PM   #43
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A 12ga. slug will overpenetrate and obviously if you are looking for a head shot with a hostage, 00 will not work either.

I would go with the .223 with a 55gr. Less penetration, better round for my money.
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Old October 15, 2005, 10:12 PM   #44
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remember where you are...

A shotgun loaded with a light bird shot will not overpenetrate but WILL stop an intruder at room distances. I personally keep my 1911 .45 loaded with Glasers or any good prefrag ammo. Practice spot shooting at 10 ft. until you can shoot the nuts off a mosquitoe.
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Old October 15, 2005, 11:33 PM   #45
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"A 12 guage shotgun loaded with #6 or #4 shot is a hunting weapon employed for self-defense (sorry, no pistol grip). An AR-15 type weapon is a high powered military assault rifle purchased by a fanatic just waiting for someone to wander into their sights"

KyJim,

I think this here was a poor statement to make. This generalizes many here on this board and if nobody else will say it I will. It is loaded with ignorance.
I am not sitting at the ready with a hard on to kill someone, the topic here was asking what is a good carbine for "Home Defense". Thats what I have a carbine for home "defense". If you preference is a scatter gun thats great, nothng wrong with your choice, but then there is nothing wrong with ours either. Do our assault rifles frighten you?
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Old October 16, 2005, 01:15 PM   #46
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Storm, I think KyJim was trying to illustrate how the City Officials/LEOs and the media will look at an AR used in a defensive situation by a law-abiding joe, and not making a negative statement about the people on this board. Whether it's fair or not, it is a very real sentiment among the unlearned.
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Old October 16, 2005, 01:36 PM   #47
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Vaughn,

if that is the case, then I have been put in my place and apologize for the remark. It wasn't a personal attack I was trying to make.

KYJim,

My apologies to you.
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Old October 26, 2005, 09:21 PM   #48
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38 spl+P + M1 30cal carbine= bases covered.
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Old October 26, 2005, 09:37 PM   #49
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I could not care less about what the responding LEO's think. I care somewhat about what the DA thinks. I care considerably about what a jury would think. Find me one real case where a reasonable person would conclude that had the 'defender' only used a more benign weapon there would not have been a conviction. It does not make the slightest difference what you use to hurt/kill someone if you were legally within your rights to use deadly force. That is the ONLY question that needs to be answered and if things are so muddy in that regard that you have to hope the type of weapon used was politically correct enough to somehow tip the balance in your favor you already made your biggest mistake. I find these types of questions regarding political correctness of weaponry as silly as asking if one would be better wearing a plain, pinstripe, or a plaid suit to their trial because of how one might be perceived by the jury for one's fashion sense. "Should I wear earthtones or bold colors?" If you are placing your fate in someones superficial perception of you, or your guns, you are in big trouble. Know the law and stay within its boundaries.
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Old October 26, 2005, 09:43 PM   #50
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Wow angry I was just saying my choices for ease of use, reliability, no over penatration.
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