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Old October 7, 2005, 09:15 AM   #1
Joven
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Carbine for Home Defense

This is my first post, as I am a new member. I am looking for a little advice.
I have forever thought that the best HD weapon is a 12ga. loaded with buckshot and I am sure that many of you will agreee. But I am considering a carbine as my primary HD weapon. I have two small children who are upstairs, my wife and I downstairs. If a BG or multiple BG's enter the house there is the possibility of a hostage situation. In this scenario a shotgun is no ideal, the only option, IMO would be a head shot with carbine. I am thinking a .223 with low weight frangible ammo, Red dot type sight. Any feedback would be appreciated.
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Old October 7, 2005, 09:23 AM   #2
azspyder
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Check out the Hi-point 9mm. Extremely accurate within 20 yards (certainly HD range) and absolutely reliable. At a price of under $200, you have money left for a tac light and a laser if you want. Ten rounds per mag and cheap ammo to boot. Check it out. Mine is equipped that way and is a stablemate to a similarly equipped 870 12 ga.
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Old October 7, 2005, 10:32 AM   #3
308Enfield
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Welcome to TFL Joven. +1 on azspyder's recommendation of the Hi-Point. They're small, light, accurate, and you can get a variety of ammo in 9mm, most of which is pretty inexpensive. Let us know what you decide to do, everybody here likes to hear about what each other are buying
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Old October 7, 2005, 11:19 AM   #4
Limeyfellow
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If its an hostage situration lead it to the police. Its unlikely you be able to get a headshot, take someone down and such with the adreneline going. Even trained hostage rescuerers wouldn't want to take that shot.

The carbine does have advantages though over a shotgun by the narrowness of the damage compared to the shotgun, and it will increase the power and range of pistol rounds and make them more accurate. I even picked up a Hi-point carbine recently and simply stick it under the arm. Its easy to bring up to firing and should take care of the problems we been having here with rabied bobcats.
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Old October 7, 2005, 03:34 PM   #5
Bowtier
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Another
Quote:
+1 on azspyder's recommendation of the Hi-Point
This is almost Dejavu
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Old October 7, 2005, 04:09 PM   #6
Blackwater OPS
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A carbine simply has WAY to much over penetration for HD. A 30-06 round wil go untill the curvature of the earth stops it or it hits little sally smith 2 blocks down, and that probably wont stop it either. A shotgun is ideal, I have had to choose between a SG and a SMG for urban barricaded entry(like HD but in reverse ) and I chose the SG everytime. I shotgun can fire 15 rounds at once, of nearly the same caliber of a subgun and can do so 6-7 times. As far a hostage shot keep a low-recoil rifled slug it the side carrier for that sitution, they are very accurate, more so than a pistol round, and they will not go 5000m before they stop. Frangible ammo is also often not effective, leave a very nasty but not man stopping 2-3in deep "crater" in the impact area but not hitting vital organs. Also, FYI, NEVER, EVER , use any non-slug/sabot SG in a hostage situation! The reason being not matter how tight your pattern, how close you are, or how good you are, that wad will fly wherever it wants to, it is NOT skill dependent!
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Old October 7, 2005, 04:34 PM   #7
threefivesevenmag
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stagger dance.

Load it with slugs or stagger your loads. Buckshot-Buckshot-Slug-Buckshot-Slug-Buckshot-Slug-Buckshot...or however you want to do it.
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Old October 7, 2005, 04:38 PM   #8
darkvibe
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No advice on if it's good for HD, but i have a hi-point 9mm carbine and it's reliable and very accurate for the money. It feeds round nose perfectly. Never tried any HP in it. It doesnt like SWC.
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Old October 7, 2005, 04:48 PM   #9
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An ar-15 is ideal for home defense. The .223 shot at those ranges will fragment and stop an intruder very quickly. It is much more accurate than any pistol. You can mount a light, laser, red dot, or whatever dohickies you want. I would use hp ammo in case of a miss because the round will penetrate sheetrock. Either the shotty or the .223 will treat you right in a hd situation.
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Old October 7, 2005, 05:35 PM   #10
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"An ar-15 is ideal for home defense. The .223 shot at those ranges will fragment and stop an intruder very quickly."

Uh, not really, no. In fact, an AR-15 is really bad about overpenetrating walls. Check out the field test over at The Box 'O Truth:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
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Old October 7, 2005, 05:43 PM   #11
shecky
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Quote:
A carbine simply has WAY to much over penetration for HD. A 30-06 round wil go untill the curvature of the earth stops it or it hits little sally smith 2 blocks down, and that probably wont stop it either.
Who says a carbine has to be in .30-06?
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Old October 7, 2005, 06:11 PM   #12
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well, if you can guarantee a headshot in low light, with your adrenelin pumping, and a rifle you are not competant with in your hands, then go for it.

That aside, I do agree with ya to some extent. I like a Bushmaster shorty myself for HD.
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Old October 7, 2005, 06:37 PM   #13
charliebravo
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gb in ga incorrect

Go with the carbine for HD. Make it a .223. AR, AK, Daewoo, hell, even the Kel-Tec SU-16 if you're strapped for cash. The .223. only overpenetrates with FMJ. When 55-62 grain soft points hit sheet rock, they fragment like hell. FBI did a study on it, then our SWAT guys (i'm a cop) actually re-tested FBi's data at the range and got the same results. We're ditching the MP-5s for our entry team and equipping them with 11.5" ARs.
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Old October 7, 2005, 06:40 PM   #14
bdc
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gee soo

Take a deep breath.

Background - many classes in structure takedown/hostage.

1. if you think that you are going to do it successfully without appropriate training, you will be dreaming. With training,you become cognizant of areas of fire, ballistics, penetration and gain confidence.

The guy who buys the Mossberg and blasts away may or may not have problems.

2. you need to drill your family about what to do in an emergency. I have a friend who trained his daughter what to do if she is in bed and there is a home fire. All you need is your people running around out of control, right?

I am not concerned about over penetration. You might. Do you think that you can consistently do head shots in low light in a hostage or potential hostage situation? No, you really can't. So you decide whether you use slugs or #8. #8 would not penetrate through a wall. COnversely, it might not put out someone's lights either. Your choice!

As for using an AR - I have built them from scratch, trained with them and all that jazz. Unless you use optics or a mounted flashlight or an eotech, they are exceptionally lousy for close in shooting in low light.The iron sights are way set off from the bore axis!

Some further comments.

I do some training. We have select slug drills. You act like you have the wrong ammo in the shotgun and go for a slug for between the eye shots in a hostage situation. Yeah, I agree, the drill is quite stupid. It is the end of a couple of long days. Ok, so I do the drill and take the bg out with a shot between the eyes. The instructor raves. I ask the instuctor why I have to use a slug when I had OO buck in the shotgun and I can shoot that well. His answer was that there was no guarantee that OO would take some one out across the room. Well, guys, if that is true, then what is the garbage about overpenetration - and you putting yourself at risk of death because you were forced to use no. 8 shot???

Why not train well enough that you can shoot a pistol, in low light, in strong side retention, with shots to the base of the throat? Same result, right? If your response is that you don't have the time or money to learn and practice perfectly, then why would you assume that you are going to spend the time and money to use a shotgun or rifle under the same conditions?
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Old October 7, 2005, 06:48 PM   #15
Ozzieman
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Both 9mm and 12 gage slug has over peneration

For home defence with children in the house I use a short 12 gage pump shotgun (postol grip) with bird shot. Thats right BIRD SHOT
In side of 10 feet there is little difference from a slug and will quickly loose energy through two layers of drywall.
If you hit some one center mass with a 12 gage bird shot as 10 feet that person is not going to do much other than fall down.
If there are hostages, the best thing is to call poliece and let some one that is trained in working with the problem, your just going to get your loved ones killed.
A 223 is the worst weapon you could use in a house with others, your neighbors are also in danger.
One of the other advantages of a 12 gage pump, the noise of loading a pump will put the scare in to mose people.
And stay away from Hi-point firearms the only good thing I can say about them is that they are cheep.
I have sold them, and fired them, cheep thats all they are. They cant hold a candle to a beretta storm carbine even at 1/3 times the price.
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Old October 7, 2005, 08:58 PM   #16
SJRTX
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Article here: http://www.olyarms.com/?page=223articles


FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.

These tests were conducted by the FBI’s Firearms Training Unit (FTU), at the request of the Bureau Tactical and Special Operations personnel. Located at the FBI academy in Quantico, VA, this is the same unit with the encouragement of forensic pathologist Dr. Martin Fackler and other ballistic experts, that dramatically advanced the testing of modern handgun rounds to estimate their wounding effectiveness and potential lethality. Ultimately, this entity confirmed that permanent crush cavities, or "wound-channels," and deep penetration were the primary factors for handgun-fired projectiles. The FTU further determined that under various target engagement circumstances, a depth of penetration in soft tissue of between 12 to 18 inches was required for a handgun bullet to be effective.


Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.

As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.


The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested
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Old October 7, 2005, 09:03 PM   #17
Blackwater OPS
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Quote:
.223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.
To be frank, I do not believe this.
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Old October 7, 2005, 09:45 PM   #18
SJRTX
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If it makes any difference to you, I believe they were test firing through a SMG type gun like an MP5- so the barrel length was probably double the normal 4" that most test with.
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Old October 7, 2005, 10:00 PM   #19
Harley Quinn
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OH YEA. I like um all, but my first

Choice is a Short barreled (18 1/4") shotgun loaded with........add in your preferred.

But my preferred is not the big buck shot 33 cal traveling at 1300+. I prefer the smaller shot. Like has already been said, stagger the type of shells in your shotgun or not....

If you want to read another post on this topic find the one about Buckshot vs Birdshot... Lively debate.

Harley
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Old October 7, 2005, 10:18 PM   #20
Blackwater OPS
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Staggering shells is worthless, in the heat of the moment you will *NOT* remember what shell is next or how many shots you fired. And even if you did what do you do the next shell is not what you want? Eject it? Smart.
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Old October 7, 2005, 11:23 PM   #21
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If you can afford to wait, Hi-Point should have a .45 ACP carbine in January, should you so prefer.
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Old October 8, 2005, 01:11 AM   #22
T. O'Heir
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Pay very close attention to what bdc says. Especially point 1. However, no matter what firearm or ammo you use, you are responsible for where any bullet goes. If you fire a shot that does not hit what you aimed at and it hits anything or anybody else, you are responsible.
Given your scenario, the only .223 ammo you should even think about is a varmint bullet. They're designed to literally explode on contact. Mind you, unless, like bdc says, you're trained and exprienced enough to shoot that well at your kid, forget it.
In any case, no stock AR-15 is accurate nor handy enough. Don't even think Mini-14. I must admit, though, that I wouldn't think twice about taking a close range, high risk, shot with my Plainfield M-1 Carbine. I know exactly where the 110 grain HP will go and I know my rifle will do it. I've had it a very long time.
"...pistol grip..." Only? The absolutely most useless firearm on Earth is a shotgun with just a pistol grip. You have no control whatsoever.
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Old October 8, 2005, 02:58 AM   #23
45-70
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12-gauge pump

Take a defensive or combat shotgun course, or at a minimum try patterning a 12-gauge with birdshot or buckshot in inside-the-house distances. You will likely find that you will be as comfortable with a 12-gauge as a carbine in taking a head shot in a hostage situation with buckshot or birdshot (my preference would be buck, but if not, #4 or #5 birdshot) at 20 feet. I took a self defense shotgun course from Texas Pistol Academy and was amazed at the tight patterns you get at short range, even with an open choke.

But serious training is a good idea regardless of the weapon you choose. We trained to do headshots in hostage situations, among other things. I am now quite comfortable with a regular stock, short-barreled Winchester 1300 with 4-ought buck for home defense.
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Old October 8, 2005, 03:33 AM   #24
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About the issue with .223s, to use one in a house would be nothing short of insane. For outdoor home defense (say if you have some property out in the country), it's probably a bit better-suited, but you still run the risk of shooting your neighbor's cows. This is not a concern for my uncle who lives on a big ranch that is densely populated with very thick pine trees. He uses an AR-15 A2. God those are fun. Unfortunately that does not make them well-suited to urban home defense. Let me reiterate: that would be insane.

There are ways to at least try and prepare for the contingency of a hostage situation, and that is to get everyone in the same room and guard the door with that shotgun and don't let anything through. That only applies if you realize there is an intruder before a hostage situation ensues... I don't know how to advise you in such an instance. Your aim must be absolutely dead-on or the unthinkable will happen. I think the best way is to avoid such a situation ever occuring, and achieve some means to alert you to an intruder the moment they get in the door, cram your family into a room that has only one way in and out, get them huddled in a corner with no windows, and blast at anything that moves while you stand at the only doorway there is.
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Old October 8, 2005, 06:35 AM   #25
Ozzieman
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I find the FBI data also hard to believe

There was a bad guy shooting here about 10 years ago and 2 perps held up in a house and a not so smart (DUMB) cop opened up with a AR-16 with solid tip ammow, but NOT armor perc.
Several rounds went through the house and through the neighbors garbage can over 100 yards from the perps house.
They had the neighbor on TV complaning about the poliece showing the holes and I can promiss you that they were not drilled.
Both her and two children were in the house.
223 is a wonderful round, but to let one off is crazzy anywhere within a neighborhood.
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