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Old October 8, 2005, 12:07 PM   #51
Japle
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Location: Viera, Florida
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Let's see now.....

"From what I have heard, no one has been able to produce any links or other evidence that using handloads will get you prosecuted. If it's a justifiable shoot, it's a justifiable shoot."


"Do you honestly think that forensics could tell the difference?"

"Handloads leading to a lawsuit - hogwash."

"There are absolutely no grounds for prosecution based no handloads, trigger jobs, acessory sights, grips, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Urban myth."

If you think so, read this:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...1/ai_n11840291

Hey, it's your $30,000. If you want to spend it on a defense attorney, be my guest.

Fortunately, here in Florida, the new law makes this much less of a problem.
I’ll still be carrying 9BPLE or CorBon or Federal Hydra-Shoks.

John
Cape Canaveral
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Old October 8, 2005, 12:42 PM   #52
Rob P.
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Quote:
"From what I have heard, no one has been able to produce any links or other evidence that using handloads will get you prosecuted. If it's a justifiable shoot, it's a justifiable shoot."


"Do you honestly think that forensics could tell the difference?"

"Handloads leading to a lawsuit - hogwash."

"There are absolutely no grounds for prosecution based no handloads, trigger jobs, acessory sights, grips, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Urban myth."

If you think so, read this:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...51/ai_n11840291

Hey, it's your $30,000. If you want to spend it on a defense attorney, be my guest.

Fortunately, here in Florida, the new law makes this much less of a problem.
I’ll still be carrying 9BPLE or CorBon or Federal Hydra-Shoks.

John
Cape Canaveral
Hay, didn't we already establish that Mr. Ayoob ISN'T a quoteable authority on this issue? He's a MAGAZINE writer and has not cited any legal authority on the issue. In fact, his "authority" for the article was a couple of cases which he was involved in as an expert witness yet gives no detail as to the outcome/verdict.

I kinda wonder why. Lets see; no citeable legal precedent, no outcome stated as to the result in the cases he uses as "authority" for his statements, and writing about it (for the Umpteenth time) got him a paycheck. Seems kind of suspect to me in the logic chain. Certainly insufficient for evidentiary use or true authority.

My opinion, this is an urban myth. Juries will do what juries usually do - whatever they feel like and whether you use factory ammo or handloads, you still run the risk of being hauled into court and losing. But then again, you run that risk everyday with your car too.

Me, I ain't losing no sleep over it.
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Old October 8, 2005, 01:44 PM   #53
swmike
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Since there is no agreement on whether handloads can potentially get one sued, is it possible that agreement is possible on another front? That it is far better to be alive and getting sued than the other possibility. If it were to come down to it, I would care less on what I have loaded than that it does the job. That in itself is another discussion.

I hold to my view that there will always be those, that when shown a doughnut, will see the hole first.
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My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.


"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

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Old October 8, 2005, 03:44 PM   #54
Japle
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That it is far better to be alive and getting sued than the other possibility.
The problem isn't getting sued so much as being prosecuted.

In any case, you don't have to choose. It's like saying, "I can drive without insurance. I'll worry about surviving the wreck. Nobody ever showed me any case law concerning anyone getting arrested for no insurance and sued for damages. It is far better to be alive and getting sued than dead in a car wreck".

I see no reason to go out of my way to look for trouble.

John
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Old October 8, 2005, 06:16 PM   #55
Edward429451
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But on the other hand, lots of cases can be cited where people were prosecuted for driving without insurance. So that wouldn't be a correct analogy.

Supposing I succumb to the ideal of carrying politically correct ammo. I got my factory hollowpoints. Uh oh, now they say their cop killer bullets, better carry FMJ. What would I (you) carry if they come out with some trash like FMJ's are ricochet prone? or well known to over penetrate?

It'd be a moot point that you had regular gas in your car instead of premium when you run someone over. I'm more worried about my front sight than I am my ammo.
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Old October 8, 2005, 06:24 PM   #56
zejs1
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In the first example in that Massad Ayoob article, the prosecution's attack on handloads fell apart.

In the second, couldn't you have the same problem with factory ammunition?

Quote:
You shot him with a factory round? No problem. We call the factory, get 50 rounds of identical amino of the same lot, do the GSR testing, and determine virtually to the inch the actual distance involved.
Sure, no problem, assuming you have the box with the lot number on it, and the factory still has samples from that lot. How long do they keep samples from every lot they made? I have a couple boxes of Federal Hydra-Shoks I'm sure were made before 1993. If I use them, will I end up in the same boat as if I had used handloads in that second scenario? That's something to think about even if you only use factory ammunition.
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Old October 8, 2005, 06:58 PM   #57
Japle
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Quote:
In the first example in that Massad Ayoob article, the prosecution's attack on handloads fell apart.
And what does it cost to get to trial? A guy I know was arrested for man-2 on weak evidence. The judge threw out the case after 4 hours. It still cost him over $20,000!

Quote:
Sure, no problem, assuming you have the box with the lot number on it, and the factory still has samples from that lot.
If the company is still in business, they have the ammo. Federal law requires them to keep a stock of each lot. Can you imagine what it costs Winchester?

John
Cape Canaveral
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Old October 8, 2005, 07:54 PM   #58
zejs1
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In the first example, were the handloads the reason he went to trial? I suspect he was going to be in a courtroom anyway, regardless of his ammunition choice. If he had used factory ammunition, they'd probably have attacked whatever choice he made there.

Quote:
Attorneys hungry to nail you, whether in criminal or in civil court, need some hook on which to hang their argument that your actions constituted malice against the person who forced you to shoot him. We saw it with anyone who went to court after firing Black Talon ammo in self-defense, during the period when that cartridge was ludicrously demonized by the press and the politicians. We've seen it for decades, right up to the present, with the use of hollow-point amino. Appellate lawyer Lisa Steele is right now speaking for multiple individuals who suffered either conviction or enhanced sentences because juries bought lawyers' arguments that the use of HP ammunition was cruel, unusual, and malicious. A lawyer who knows his stuff--which the original trial lawyers in those cases of Lisa's apparently didn't--can defeat the hollowpoint argument easily. The simplest avenue is to show the jury that virtually all cops carry HPs. But that argument isn't available for handloads.
The key is "Attorneys hungry to nail you". Those guys are going to be on you no matter what you do. The information Ayoob presented indicates that factory ammunition is subject to the same frivilous attacks as handloads. And if that paragraph is accurate, the attacks on the use of factory ammunition have been successful.

Anyway, I think there's more than enough material here for anyone to make up their mind about it. If anyone has any doubts about whether or not to use handloads, then don't do it.
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Old October 8, 2005, 10:01 PM   #59
swmike
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I think someone said it before but I'll say it again. Why, if we are so worried about being sued, why are we carrying weapons?


BTW I carry three things. My faithful sidearm, My Umbrella Policy, and my attorney's Phone Number.

How many out there have had to sue someone? How many have found out how hard it is to collect? Yes, there is the expense of an attorney but in my case, that is why I carry liability insurance. As to losing my house (as someone glibly stated was a possibility), remember my question regarding suing someone. Easy to do, harder to collect. Even if a moronic jury awards damages above and beyond the limits of insurance policy, there is bankruptcy protection. By the time all the exemptions are figured out and assets found (good luck here, remember the O. J. Simpson retirement plan exemption), there isn't much left over for the "payout". If anyone wants to sue me fine. Good luck on collecting.
__________________
My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.


"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

"If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help".

____________________________________________
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