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Old October 5, 2005, 03:23 PM   #26
mvpel
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I switched to Speer Gold Dot when I moved here to Merrimack, NH, since that's what the local cops use.
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Old October 5, 2005, 04:08 PM   #27
CobrayCommando
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Fact vs. personal feelings, the final frontier. Is the .45 ACP better than the 9mm, does God exist, can you safely use handloads for self defense?

Fact says that the answer to the last question is yes.
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Old October 5, 2005, 04:11 PM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
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can you safely use handloads for self defense?

Fact says that the answer to the last question is yes.


What about those double powder charges that blow you up?
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Old October 5, 2005, 04:15 PM   #29
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Hahahah true true!
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Old October 5, 2005, 04:19 PM   #30
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The way I see it, if you get sued for using handloads, you were probably going to be sued anyway. There was a case in the news in Tampa years ago in which a homeowner was sued for shooting a home invader. The plaintiff's attorney made a big deal about the homeowner using a big, bad 357 against a poor little burglar with an itty-bitty little 22.

If you're getting sued by THAT guy- you're gonna get sued anyway.

I'd like to see someone make an effective case against me using handloaded 38 specials in my 357. Maybe I planned on making the guy die more slowly with my wimpy handloads?
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Old October 5, 2005, 05:03 PM   #31
MRex21
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Quote:
The way I see it, if you get sued for using handloads, you were probably going to be sued anyway.
That is an excellent point.
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Old October 5, 2005, 05:09 PM   #32
Rob P.
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A lot of the "arguments" on this issue are hogwash.

The fact is, a lot of states have laws that say that if someone is committing an illegal act and they get hurt of killed, they, or their estate, have NO LEGAL RECOURSE against any other party.

It's what "outlaw" means - being outside the law and it's protections. Thus, you even have a common-law defense against any claim by the BG even if your state doesn't have a specific law like this.

"It's your house"? Bwahahahahah! That's what homeowners insurance is for even assuming the BG (or his estate) get that far. I also agree that if you do have to shoot someone, immediately follow up with a pre-emptive lawsuit against the BG or his estate for damages. Better yet, get your insurance company to do so on your behalf since they have a right to recover for damages caused by 3d parties. (You shot the BG right? Bloody carpet - call the insurance adjuster. Insurance Co has a right to recover the damages from the BG. People who pay for damages caused by their actions are usually not sucessful claiming they were the aggrieved party.)

Ayoob is a magazine writer. He has to write things that get his articles sold. Thus, his magazine articles are NOT proper authority. If you know him (I don't) ask him and see if he tells you to talk to a lawyer or not. Betcha you can guess the answer to that one yourself.
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Old October 5, 2005, 05:15 PM   #33
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First, IANAL, but best I recall at least here in Ga as well as back in Tx it is already illegal to modify your SD ammo in several manners including mercury or explosive loading. If you actually did such a thing with your loads, factory or handloaded, then you stand to be criminally prosecuted. But if what you are doing is just creating a custom tailored conventional SD load then the overriding concern is whether the shoot was justified or not -- not whether factory or handloads were used.

For instance, if I create a handload for my .357 Mag that essentially duplicates the performance of a popular factory SD load and uses the exact same bullet, but does so with less muzzle flash, am I to be held liable for it's use in a justifiable shoot? If so, why? Especially since low flash factory loads are available from other vendors. Why can't I opt for vendor A's bullet but emulate vendor B's flash charactaristics?

Why must I be satisfied with whatever is available from commercial vendors when I can create comparable ammo myself that has superior characteristics, especially since I know exactly what firearm my ammo will be used in and can tailor for it, but they don't know and therefore can't?
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Old October 5, 2005, 05:26 PM   #34
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As far as if you got sued by that guy you are going to get sued anyway... It doesnt matter if you get sued so much as if you were to lose. I think its still 1 more arguement for the other side to make.

And for the people that say if you are justified, then you are justified... What if the scenerio was that you shot someone who lived and was say paralized. What if they sued you because "hand loads are the reason I was paralized?" Just a thought.
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Old October 5, 2005, 05:36 PM   #35
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dark, you are living in a paranoid fantasy.

I carry handloads frequently in my revolvers for defense. I carry factory ammo in my semi autos, but only because I don't load .45ACP, 9mm or .40 nowdays.
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Old October 5, 2005, 05:56 PM   #36
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Massad Ayoob has done at least one article on why we shouldn't use handloads. He cited lawsuits and prosecutions in which people were vilified by the opposing counsel for using handloads.

By his own admission, however, in the cases he cited, handloads were disproven to be a factor in the shooting. According to his article, IIRC, a 45 was chrono'ed to be similar to factory loadings. It was also argued the 45 had less muzzle energy than the 357's the local police used.

Quote:
It doesnt matter if you get sued so much as if you were to lose.
Okay, let me put it this way: if you were going to lose a lawsuit which scrutinized handloads, you were going to lose the lawsuit anyway.

If the only piece of evidence they have against you is the handloads, you're most likely going to beat it.

Quote:
What if they sued you because "hand loads are the reason I was paralized?" Just a thought.
If my handloaded 38's at 850 fps paralyzed him, what would the local sheriff's department's 9mm's, 357's, .40's, and 45's going to do to the guy? Or the 12 ga. in the cruiser? Present that evidence to the jury. A good lawyer, good expert witnesses, and a good jury are going to get you the justice you deserve. (none if you acted properly in self-defense)
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Old October 5, 2005, 07:13 PM   #37
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"The way I see it, if you get sued for using handloads, you were probably going to be sued anyway."

That is something everyone should realize when they use deadly force. You can be 101% justified but you'll still be sued. That is what very few people realize when they CCW. How many carry liability insurance?
Even tho right it's still going to cost you attorney fees. Being right ain't cheap.
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Old October 5, 2005, 08:31 PM   #38
mvpel
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If the only piece of evidence they have against you is the handloads, you're most likely going to beat it.

Yes, but you'll have to spend x-thousand extra dollars hiring the necessary expert witnesses, having certified, notarized, court-approved chrono testing done at an approved range, and so on, in order to beat it.

So then the question becomes, why bother? Are handloads really that much better than my Speer Gold Dots for a defensive pistol? Not ever having done any reloading, I have no idea.
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Old October 5, 2005, 09:57 PM   #39
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It used to be said "Save one round for yourself in case your about to be captured". Maybe that should be changed to "Save two rounds. One for the other guys lawyer, and one for yourself".

When I left the house today to go for a day trip to the ocean, I placed myself at risk from lots of sources. I could have been car-jacked at the gas pump (instead I was just robbed ). I could have had an accident and who knows who would be suing me. I could have been trapped in the Supermarket by some crazed gunman that wanted all the change from the "Charity Jars".

I know, I am being sarcastic but the possibility of getting sued exists from so many directions you can either get on with life or worry. I like (and would follow this course) the suggestion to counter sue the BG's Estate for damages to your property (Blood, Other Bodily Fluids/Solids), and Attorney Fees. The more they lean on you, the more you lean back.

I hope I am never forced into a situation where I have to use deadly force again. I got enough experience in the Service. But if it should occur, I won't be worrying if my loads are factory or mine.

I have noticed that some very effective loads are available today and they minimize the desire on my part to "roll my own" defense loads. 30 years ago, I couldn't say the same.
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Old October 6, 2005, 07:05 AM   #40
Harley Quinn
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Handloads when working for a city or agency

is usually against the Rules. You can get days off and fined or fired, depends.

Policy is the thing to worry about. If they can prove you were not,
within the policy of your department, you are facing a major problem.

I knew a guy who used to take the bullet out of his cartridge and reload it with the same stuff only hotter, put the bullet back and you really could not tell except he told everyone.
He was a true believer that he should do this to protect his life and others.
Did not like the 38 like it was and added some soup, he was probably the forerunner of +Ps. I think he carried a 6" also. Adds some power. That was the gun of choice long ago.

Supervisors got wind of it and explained in rollcall that was not the thing to do, no names mentioned. Times have changed.

I really don't know what he finally did or if he changed his style, I moved on shortly after that and never saw him again.

Guys like this actually probably did more good then harm, the Departments have gone the way of better ammo and handguns for their officers and other equipment to help them do the job they were hired to do.

I think with the stuff available to everyone in this day and age, the idea of loading your own just goes to show, that the person doing that is a flake and it will come out in different/other ways and they will hang themselves.

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Old October 6, 2005, 09:12 AM   #41
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I would advise using factory ammo. However as was pointed out IN COLORADO where the previous poster lives, as do I, you cannot be held criminally or civily liable for a good shoot... in or out of your house. Same in Florida now.

Quote:
Hope you enjoyed your house.
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Old October 6, 2005, 10:36 AM   #42
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Quote:
yes
You are 100 % correct. I am not sure about all states but here in California you would most likely face pre meditated charges with hand loads. My CCW class instructor says he has seen it. He says to use gold speer as it is what the police use. If a lawyer tried to claim the hollow points were made to kill you can counter with the truth which is they are made so as not to over penetrate and hit innocent bystanders thus why the police use them after reviewing many rounds for official use.

Not trying to be mean but that guy that said nah needs to be carful in the advice he gives. This is potentialy the rest of this persons life if he got convicted. Just my thoughts and the info i have for my state. Good luck!
So your instructor has seen it, but you have not. I am not believing it. I have been told lots of things that turned out less than 100% by instructors. I was told by an instructor at Thunder Ranch that I could not own a ballistic vest becasue the box was marked "For Law Enforcement Use Only." I was told by Tom Givens of Rangemaster that it was illegal for my to point a gun at a person on my own property if they were not actually threatening me or that I could not shoot to defend property. Neither instructor was right in regard to Texas law.

As far as the ignorance of his statement, let me counter with offering that the great Ayoob himself hasn't produced any shooter-lost lawsuits based on handloads and he has been preaching against them a long time. Contrary to this, he has produced to court cases where the POLICE were sued based on gun choice and ammo choice. Based on his long history of sleuthing things, he has more shown cases against using factory ammo chosen by the cops than he does handloads (see Highroad thread below).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...light=ayoobian

Somewhat counter to his position, Ayoob pointed out in case one, "Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have no substantive."

The real problem with using what the police use is that they may be using ammo that meets their specific needs, not yours. As a non-LEO, I can't get on the radio and yell that an officer needs assistance and have 20 fellow officers show up inside of 3 minutes. Generally speaking, if I need and am in a shooting, I probably will not be wearing body armor. When I purchase my ammo, my ammo choice is made by me, not by some beaurocrat in an office downtown who has gone with the lowest bidder to supply ammo for my department.

So in comparison to what the police use, I often don't want what the police use. I want something better.

Also, which police do you use as your standard. Does it have to be your immediate local police? Can you use what the Sheriff's office uses? How about what the FBI uses? Constable? Ranger? Dog catcher? Homeland Security? Treasury Dept? Here locally in north Texas, many depts. choose their own special ammo based on needs and supplier. Some allow the officers to choose whatever ammo they want to use off of a specified list of 'quality' rounds.
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Old October 6, 2005, 11:41 AM   #43
Harley Quinn
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00 naught spy guy. I went back to the posts you are

showing, it does not appear that you have changed your mind. Have you changed anyone else's?

I think I can agree with you regarding your thoughts. I kind of wish I lived in Texas. But I don't.

Regarding civillian ability to do all these freerights things. Well it has been so long since I was able to think for myself in California I might just have forgot.

Seriously, In CA people actually have a lot more rights then they do in the rest of the country.
It just depends on who you are and what you do in a lot of the southern states I have visited.
Even though CA is considered a liberal state we have a Republican Gov.

We just have so many more people in the state that if we were not the way we are, it would be similar to other countries where they have so many people per square foot. As in uncivilized.

When you have more elbow room you are able to think for yourselves, and do what you want to do even if it is only, what you want to do...

I think the way the Texans are handling the Hurricanes show's they can do a good job.

I am not sure this makes sense but it does to me. When you go over to the civil side of life, you give up a lot of your rights.

Pretty complicated if you ask me.
Oh, pass me one of those tin hats will you?

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Old October 6, 2005, 07:19 PM   #44
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I can't believe that some people get worried about having the wrong ammo because of what some gunwriter quasi-aficiando guy wrote in an article. Ayoob had a weak moment and had a deadline to meet and said the wrong thing. It happens.

It's just a spooky story. No one has ever posted any proof/case cites to substantiate the rumor.

Could this be a non-handloader (phobia)?

Ok, fess up. Who handloads and wont carry their own ammo for sheer legalistic fear (and how long have you been reloading?!).

I use handloads (almost) exclusively in my revolvers but do carry factory in the autos. Not to try to be politically correct with the ammo but because I handload lead, and desire to carry a premium hollowpoint so buy factory.

I betcha dollar (not) that none of the people worried about it are established handloaders.
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Old October 6, 2005, 07:26 PM   #45
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Lost yer dollar, Edward.

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Old October 7, 2005, 07:25 AM   #46
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Quote:
When you go over to the civil side of life, you give up a lot of your rights.
So for the rest of us in the fly over zone, we should continue to evolve from neanderthal man to human. At that point in time, utopia will be realized, we may all live in peace. What good are rights for the civilized man?

Our utopian government will tell us what is right and what is wrong. It is only our duty to follow their orders, oops!, I mean guidlines, much like a prisoner/slave in a cage. If this we do, we will get our vouchers for bread and milk and will avoid any troubles with the KGB.


Sorry, that quote really bothers me. And I haven't even had my coffee yet. Maybe once I do, I won't care anymore.....
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Old October 7, 2005, 09:08 AM   #47
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Old October 7, 2005, 09:35 AM   #48
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Yes, but you'll have to spend x-thousand extra dollars hiring the necessary expert witnesses, having certified, notarized, court-approved chrono testing done at an approved range, and so on, in order to beat it.
You'll have to spend money on experts, lawyers, testing, etc. no matter what you get sued for.

Quote:
So then the question becomes, why bother? Are handloads really that much better than my Speer Gold Dots for a defensive pistol? Not ever having done any reloading, I have no idea.
Why bother? In my Glock, there's no reason to bother. I found WWB 230gr. JHP's perform well out of my gun.

I had a hard time finding 38's that would perform out of my 1-7/8" 357 airlite revolver. I handloaded until I got up to the velocity I could handle and backed off. Much less recoil than a 357, but had decent velocity. I could have wasted a lot of time and money trying different premium factory self-defense loads. In the slim, slim chance I have to use these, I will most likely get sued anyway. Let them try to argue I shot the guy with extra deadly 850-fps loads in my 357.
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Old October 8, 2005, 11:29 AM   #49
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Lost yer dollar, Edward.
I re-read your posts and you do have fairly sensible reasoning in your decision. You're probably still the exception to the rule though.
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Old October 8, 2005, 11:36 AM   #50
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You're probably still the exception to the rule though.
Story of my life...



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