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Old October 1, 2005, 12:28 AM   #1
Garand Illusion
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A scenario ... because EVERYONE LOVES a scenario ...

I've never posted a scenario before and sometimes find them kind of annoying, but something happened about a week ago that really made me think. So ... here it is:

You pull up to the front of the 7-11 at night with your wife and your toddler in her car seat behind you. It's getting dark, and you can see in the glass windows very well.

Your wife just wants to go in and by some milk, so you stay behind. You are, of course, packing -- but not expecting anything to happen. Your wife is not packing because she never does and doesn't believe in it no matter how often you talk to her about it and try to get her into a class (do I sound bitter?).

As you watch your wife pay for her order behind the plate glass window, another car squeals to a stop and a scummy looking guy jumps out, runs in the store, produces a gun and starts threatening everyone (though you can't hear what is being said). Your wife is backing off, but he appears to be particularly aggressive toward her and pointing the gun in her direction and screaming something, though you can't hear what it is. Your wife is terrified (and probably regretting not having taken your advice and getting a CCL).

You're about to rush in and defend your wife, but you realize that sitting in the driver's seat of the getaway car is an accomplice and there's no way you're going to leave the toddler alone out there.

So ... you have a 2nd BG in a car watching everything who may or may not be armed and a toddler in the back of your car who can't look out for herself. What do you do?

Later on I'll post what really happened, which was anything but exciting, but put me in a similar situation of not being able to potentially protect my wife because of the little girl.

My solution (and it's not perfect, I just can't think of anything better, hopefully someone will give me something to think about):

Throw the car in reverse and drive around the side of the building out of sight of the other car. Then, lock the toddler in the car, throw the keys out of sight (like under another car, so the BG's don't grab it) and IF POSSIBLE (probably won't be) try to get an angle around the corner to see what is going on. Making sure, of course, that you have "cover" options available.

I'm not real happy with that solution, and it probably takes too long anyway.

My feeling is that the toddler is my first protection priority. She is totally dependent on me, and the wife is a grown up. I would like to protect them both, of course, but don't know how to deal with the guy in the car AND the guy inside the store. Rush in the door and I am an easy target for both.

Thoughts, my tactical mentors?
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Old October 1, 2005, 05:27 AM   #2
Blackwater OPS
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I am not going to go to far into tactics, to many variables here, but I will say that this situation seems to require more firepower than a handgun, if you live in area where this sort of thing is common, and you refuse to avoid places like these "stop and robs" you might be well advised to keep a carbine in your trunk. With a rifle you could easily take out the BG inside from the outside while remaining covered and consealed from the second BG(on the other side of your car for ex.) You could then COVER (hopefully not shoot, as he is not an immediate threat) the other BG in the car outside before he has even realised what happened.

Also PLEASE no replys to this comment about how the CCW guy is going to end up in legal trouble over the shooting. That has been done to death and this is the tactics forum not legal!
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Old October 1, 2005, 09:11 AM   #3
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This is hard

But the first thing I would do is to get a description of the car,driver and perp. You should have pen and paper in your car,for when you need to jot down things like that.

As far as whats next, this is a tricky situation. What you said so far made sense, but I would not throw the keys under another car. I would leave it under my car instead. Do you think if you scare the getaeway driver, that he will run away? If so, then you could try to shoot the bad guy.

This is very very touchy. Let us know what exactly happened.

Thanks
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Old October 1, 2005, 10:50 AM   #4
sm
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...and a toddler in the back of your car who can't look out for herself.
You continue being the Repsonsible Adult Parent. You put the vehicle in Reverse, not attracting attention if can, and leave to more secure area to observe and report.

Sounds cold doesn't it?.

The reality is, the Parents are responsible for children. Adults are responsible for themselves. The child has a right to continue breathing, better to be raised by only one parent, than none at all...or be a victim themselves.

If you had been the one in the store, had not CCW-ed, You would prefer your wife and child leave immediatly to somewhere safe.

--

One can hope one of the BGs takes note and decides to stop criminal activity, and all ends well. One has to accept in the real world this does not always occur. Not much comfort in being a good witness perhaps. Maybe BGs are apprehended and Justice is served - Maybe not. Still that child has a right to be parented.

For the sake of children these types of discussions are important. As depressing as these may be, parents need to have discussed plans in the event one or the other passes away, is seriously injured. Insurance Plans, wills, financial planning and wishes are all fine. Life happens, folks get sick and die, car wrecks and folks die, job injuries and folks die.

Not planning for everyday activities of daily living (ADLs) like running into a Stop&Rob is the adult's lack of responsibility.

The child deserves and has a right to responsible parenting.
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Old October 1, 2005, 04:39 PM   #5
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having been though a similar event, (although my wife had just walked out of the store when bg pulled pistol from waistband), It was a friend behind the counter. We observed the robbery while driving slowly from the parking lot. I then observed where bg went and circled back to wait for leo. If my wife had still been in the store and another bg in a car I would probably do the same thing. I have 3 kids, and my wife would want at least one of us to be safe. I would however remain in the near vacinity, and if given an oportunity to act would probably do so. I too am trying to talk her into ccw and she is getting a little better. In fact she didn't yell at me today when I bought ANOTHER holster
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Old October 1, 2005, 04:52 PM   #6
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Garand, . . .

I can't really comment on the scenario as is, . . . simply because my wife is not one who would have gone in the stop & rob. She would have sent me in.

That has been our SOP from the first day of our marriage. I take the chances, . . . she watches .

If I were you, . . . maybe you could reverse the roles in something like this. At least you are up, about, and can do something other than occupy space behind the steering wheel.

On the other hand, I applaud the quick thinking, and commitment to the toddler, though I would have stuck the keys in my pocket. And yes, . . . I would have come back, . . . doing my best not to be seen by the get away driver.

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Old October 1, 2005, 10:11 PM   #7
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In this situation I would be glad my wife didn't have a gun because it would most likely get her killed. She would attempt to draw on a person who is 1) already pointing a gun at her and 2)probably a lot more experienced with a gun than the average house wife. If she was properly trained, which most women aren't, then she could possibly get a shot off if he wasn't looking.
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Old October 2, 2005, 12:19 AM   #8
BillCA
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Garand,

1. Glad your wife & child are safe. You painted a proper perspective here. Protect the child first.

2. Cell phone. Get one. In this case, calling the cops AFTER getting your toddler secure would have been good. Calling the cops, letting them know who & where the BGs are and how many customers in the store gives them time to start planning while enroute.

3. Just about anything you do in such a scenario could make it worse. Including doing nothing. Moving children out of harms way is first, then other innocents if possible.
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Old October 2, 2005, 01:14 AM   #9
Garand Illusion
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Thanks for all the replies, guys. Good to know I wasn't totally on the wrong track or missing something obvious.

I also agree that my first and foremost responsibility is my toddler. If things were reversed, and I was in there unarmed facing a mad man and my wife was sitting in the car -- even if she had on full kevlar equipment and had an M4 -- there's no way I'd want her moving away from the baby. I would be relieved to see the van backing away, as I would now have one less concern on my mind.

For a few points made above ...

If I tried to restrict my wife from going in to stop-n-robs, that wouldn't fly. I'm normally the one that goes in (just because I'm the guy, and she expects me to be the one to get out) but in this case she wanted me to make some calls on the cell phone so I stayed in the car.

I didn't include calling the police on my cell phone, but I definitely would have done that quickly.

If my wife -- or myself, for that matter -- were facing an angry BG pointing a gun right at us, obviously neither of us would try a quick draw and fire. It would have to be an absolute you're-going-to-die-anyway-so-try-something situation to draw on a man who has a gun pointed at me.

But ... if you're carrying a gun in that situation, you have options. Guy doesn't know about the gun and wants to take you hostage? Unarmed, there's no way I'm going with a BG. He's going to have to shoot me there where there are witnesses and cameras that will at least help catch him. But with a concealed weapon still available on my person ... I know I'll get a chance to give him a BIG surprise. Or if things are really getting dicey eventually the guy is going to look away, giving me a chance to move.

But anyway ...

The Real Situation:

I hope I didn't make it sound like my scenario actually happened. It was just something I got to thinking about.

In real life ... the first part did happen. My wife went in and I could see in the window like it was a big screen movie. While I was making calls a car pulled up and an angry looking guy rushed in. Just as my wife was approaching the counter to pay for the milk he stomped up and started yelling at the clerk and slamming his hand down on the counter (I couldn't hear anything from where I was, of course, except for the stereo).

My wife, confronted by an angry situation between strangers, was clearly frightened and backing off. I started to jump out of the van just to be with her when I remembered I had my first responsibility sitting in a car seat behind me.

The angry man and the clerk (EDITED from crook) yelled at each other for a few moments and then the man stomped out, got into his car, and squealed out of the parking lot.

When my wife came back out she said it was just a roommate argument. Somebody hadn't paid a bill and the lights got shut off.

So ... although I was carrying, it was never an issue in any manner because there wasn't any threat to anybody and I didn't even perceive a serious threat ... I just knew my wife was intimidated by the screaming men and I knew it would make her feel better if I was standing next to her.

I know ... not much of a story ... but it got me to thinking. As often as I go to convenience stores, I'm surprised I've never seen a robbery (just missed one, once).

Last edited by Garand Illusion; October 2, 2005 at 03:37 PM.
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Old October 2, 2005, 02:41 AM   #10
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The toddler is safe and your wife and the others are under immediate threat.

Lock the child in the car and do what you can for the immediate threat.

The likelihood of anything happening to the child is remote and the likelihood of someone in the store being hurt, or killed, is very high.

I don't know what to do about the 2nd BG?? Maybe take him at gunpoint into the store as a shield and hope for a chance to finish the BG inside.

This is sort of fun, but I really have no other ideas that come quickly enough to be any good.
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Old October 2, 2005, 03:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
The angry man and the crook
Do you mean the clerk?

Your original scenario is very interesting. My first reaction was "drive your van through the wall of th 7-11 and squish the BG." But then the toddler would be endangered. I dunno. Maybe drive up real close to the window and shoot the BG through the glass? Same problem. I guess I would go with your solution, drive around to the back while calling the police, lock up the car, and then engage. All as fast as possible.
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Old October 2, 2005, 11:16 PM   #12
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I would have gotten the hell out of dodge - my wife is an adult and she would want the kids safety to be first (as would I). Returning to the situation wouldnt be an option for me......I would stay with the kids.
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Old October 3, 2005, 11:10 AM   #13
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In this scenario:

1) The baby's welfare is the most important aspect and s/he will need at least ONE live parent. IN a worst case, one of the parents may get killed. So, move the car to get it to safety while still being able to observe the robbery.

2) Call the police to alert them, but you don't want this to turn into a hostage situation. Ideally the robber will get the money from the store, possibly rob your spouse, and leave.

3) Get description of BGs and auto and plate number.

4) Consider locking the car door (parked within view) and tactically moving toward the store but staying out of sight as much as possible. This gives you the chance to observe but also move in for a shot if necessary if the opportunity arises. You might get a clear shot through the glass (watching your background of course). Hopefully your wife will run at the first chance when you open fire. Or you might get a clear shot as the BG leaves the store. You may also be able to disable the BG vehicle by shooting the tires, radiator, engine, etc.

5) keep in mind that there is a 2nd BG in the car and he could be armed with a rifle. You may have to immediately take him out as well, but not until he becomes a threat.

I wouldn't toss the keys under the car b/c anybody observing you can steal your car and housekeys with your baby inside. Odds of the BG getting the keys and finding your vehicle are slim (unless you have keyless entry).
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Old October 3, 2005, 11:21 AM   #14
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Anybody who postulates leaving the baby is an idiot.

A few years ago, there was a police officer in plain clothes who left his kid to intervene in a robbery. A gun fight ensued. During the fight, one BG circled around the 'tactically' moving officer and killed his kid.

This is a typical bad situation that will elicit all kinds of commando crap about 'tactical' movement and efficiently taking down the BGs.

The only reasonable option is to get away with the kid and call the cops. You don't keep the kid in the range of rounds. Duh - anybody not get that?

Yep, maybe Commando Boy doesn't get to 'tactically' save his wife.

However, let me point out that there was 'original sin'. Your wife wanted to get to milk in a 'tactically' risky manner. You should have said NO NO NO.

Thus, as with the victims of Katrina who refused to evacuate and as stated on this list by some, doesn't she 'deserve' what she gets?

You flee and call the cops. That's it. Fantasy time is over.
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Old October 3, 2005, 11:24 AM   #15
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Pull the SKS out of my trunk and make some noise...just kidding, call the cops...not leaving the kid
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Old October 3, 2005, 11:41 AM   #16
Garand Illusion
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Quote:
However, let me point out that there was 'original sin'. Your wife wanted to get to milk in a 'tactically' risky manner. You should have said NO NO NO.
Maybe this is just madness on my part ... but BG's don't rule my life. It has nothing to do with CCW or anything else -- I haven't changed my lifestyle since I got the ability carry a gun.

If I want to go to a play or concert that gets out late at night in downtown Denver, or maybe hit a bar or two and have to walk to my car at 2:00 a.m. -- that's what I do.

If I need milk, I hit a convenience store.

In both those situations I raise my awareness of what's going on around me, of course. But I'm damned if I'm going to spend the rest of my life sitting in my house with all the lights and the alarm on and a 12 gauge sitting across my lap because I read of a home invasion somewhere in the sub division.

When you start taking it to extremes, there is a fine line between "tactical awareness" and cowardice.

The more good people pull back and quit going places where there might be a low income urban male -- especially the good people on a board like this who have the capability and the personality to fight back if an opportunity arises -- the worse things get. For everybody. And the more we let these kind of punks intimidate us the more they start trying to intimidate us.

CCW carriers are a value to society, but not if they shut down and quit circulating in society.

I do agree there was very little, if anything, I could do except get my infant out of harm's way.

Now ... if for some odd reason she was in there with my infant and something bad was going down ... I wouldn't charge in like John Wayne hitting the beaches at Iwo Jima, but I would definitely put myself at risk to get into a position where I could have an effect on what was happening if things went real bad.
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Old October 3, 2005, 11:59 AM   #17
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What I would do:

Stay with the child, call the police describe the situation, the location of the second bad guy, and give them a play by play. hope my wife and the others acquiesce to what the ******* wants and he walks out. when he walks out I will remain as hidden as possible and watch as they leave. My 226 will be ready to go if I'm seen.


The kid is the most important aspect. My wife would know this and understand.


What some of the tactical ninja's here (Blackmind) would do:

Sneak out of his car, belly crawl to the BG's getaway car. Use the slim jim kit he keeps in his pants on the remote possibility a crime involving a car arises. Break into the car, snap his neck like Seagal would do. Then he'd do a sommersault and barrel roll to the car to get the Benelli M4 and M4 with 2 tac lights (Incase one goes out), a red dot, and a laser (in case the red dot goes out) they keep in the truck just in case. Thinking ahead they would always have their phone on silent.

Next, they would use their grappling hook they keep just in case of a dynamic entry scenario to get to the roof then pull out his cutting torch to get into the roof, From which he would kick out a vent, drop from the roof, guns blazing killing the Bg and endangering everyone by initiating a gun fight. After which he would run background check on everyone to make sure they arent BG's accomplises.
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Old October 3, 2005, 12:40 PM   #18
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"but BG's don't rule my life."

That's cool. I admire that (when you're on your own). But you got a kid strapped into the back seat. You're willing to risk his/her life for your principals? The problem with that attitude is it's not just about YOUR life.
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:11 PM   #19
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Did I read this right? Did you want to drive around to the side of the building, get OUT of the car, lock the car, throw the keys somewhere, and watch the situation, away from your car?? You can't just lock the car up and leave the baby by herself!! I *believe* (sarcasm detected?) that's against the law! And especially, during an armed robbery situation. Isn't that something like "Endangering the welfare of a minor" or "Reckless Endangerment" or something? Whatever it's called, if anything happened to that child while it was by itself locked in the car, you'd never forgive yourself. What if the get away car's plan of escape was driving 80 mph around the side of the building, and it smashed into your car (w/ child inside)? Yeah, you'd be ok. But your child??

I think you driving the car (i.e. "child") AWAY from danger is your only option. You can't leave your child. Yes, you want to protect both your child and your wife, but you can't in this situation. Your wife would want her baby to be safe. She's an adult, and yes, the BG could have killed everyone in the store. But then he could have killed every witness in the parking lot, too (which would include you (and maybe the child, if he noticed her). Getting the heck out of there as safely as possible was your only option, in my opinion.

As much as I'd want to help my wife, I know I couldn't with out endangering my child at the same time. So, like others have said, first priority is the helpless child. Your wife is an adult, she has a better chance of survival by herself than the child does.

Glad it wasn't anything like your scenario, but it's good to discuss every possible situation. Thanks for the post.
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:27 PM   #20
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Nevermind.
I'd only get flamed for posting what I'm really thinking.
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:45 PM   #21
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Where's the tactical sniper with the 40x glass when you need it?
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:45 PM   #22
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I'm an idiot

I don't leave my wife. Period. Now, granted, my wife and I talk about stuff like this, and "what if" all day long. But I don't leave her behind. Flame away, it's my call anyway.
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:53 PM   #23
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That's cool. I admire that (when you're on your own). But you got a kid strapped into the back seat. You're willing to risk his/her life for your principals? The problem with that attitude is it's not just about YOUR life.
Point well taken. OK -- I probably wouldn't go walking in downtown Denver at 2:00 a.m. with my toddler. Hopefully she'd be asleep anyway. I will keep going to convenience stores, though -- at least depending on the part of town I'm in. Especially if there are 2 adults and one is staying in the van with her.

You are right -- and I DO keep it in mind when I have an infant in my charge.

Quote:
Did you want to drive around to the side of the building, get OUT of the car, lock the car, throw the keys somewhere, and watch the situation, away from your car?? You can't just lock the car up and leave the baby by herself!! I *believe* (sarcasm detected?) that's against the law! And especially, during an armed robbery situation. Isn't that something like "Endangering the welfare of a minor" or "Reckless Endangerment" or something? ... if anything happened to that child while it was by itself locked in the car, you'd never forgive yourself.
Another point well taken. For the particular 7-11 I was at, the vehicle would be pretty safe around the corner. Again, it's because I'm thinking of a very specific situation and building. Many stand alone convenience stores would be different, but this is at the end of a mini-mall. I don't want to do a map of the area, but I could park around the corner and not be in danger of the getaway car slamming into my vehicle.

And if they're going to spray the vehicles in the area with gunfire, better that I'm out of the vehicle where I can shoot back vs. locked inside.

In terms of leaving the child alone ... I don't think it would legally be reckless endangerment to leave your child alone momentarily to protect the life of another human being. There's a little thing called "lesser of two evils" AND common sense. I certainly wouldn't be concerned about that.

As to whether it makes sense to do so ... again, I'm thinking of a very particular building and surroundings. If I truly thought the SHTF and my wife had a high likely hood of being killed AND wasn't already dead, I still might do it. Depends a lot on the situation. The only reason I'm tossing the keys in a non obvious place is if things go bad I don't want anyone pulling the keys off me to use my car as a getaway vehicle.

Probably wouldn't intercede in the situation I described, though, because 2 gunmen are just too much.
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:53 PM   #24
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This is a typical bad situation that will elicit all kinds of commando crap about 'tactical' movement and efficiently taking down the BGs.

The only reasonable option is to get away with the kid and call the cops. You don't keep the kid in the range of rounds. Duh - anybody not get that?
So taking cover and shooting both BG's in the eye is not a feasible solution? What about taking off in your car, squalling the tires, and shooting out of the window?
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Old October 3, 2005, 02:59 PM   #25
Garand Illusion
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Nevermind.
I'd only get flamed for posting what I'm really thinking.
Quit playing dead and DO IT, Possum! Nothing more fun than some friendly flames exchanged.
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