The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 30, 2005, 07:42 PM   #1
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Attitude about survival, and caring for a dependent child

Rather than hijack a different thread and pursue this discussion there, I would like to see it have its own thread.

I'd like responses and opinions of the following:


It's a subject I wonder about. Take average Woman A. She hates guns, won't have anything to do with them. Won't even consider the idea of shooting someone to prevent herself being raped, or even murdered. Considers herself a "pacifist." Considers it a truism that "violence begets violence." Doesn't want to be part of harming another human life. (It's a mindset I can't even begin to relate to, caring so much about a rapist's life that I would prefer my own to be ended at his hands rather than do him in...!)

Put a kid into the picture. She now has a two-year-old daughter in a carseat in the car with her wherever she goes. Ask her about how she feels about not using a gun to defend against a carjacker/kidnaper now. Maybe she feels more like she should take responsibility for having some power to direct events when someone threatens.

If she doesn't, I think she's a pitiful parent. Any parent of a helpless child, who does not ensure that he/she can fend off attack for the sake of that child's safety is pitiful, in my book. Should not be in charge of caring for, much less teaching, that child.

Your thoughts, please.

Is someone who is responsible for a child, but who does not equip herself (himself?) to fend off violent criminal attack, negligent as a caretaker? They get the kid innoculated, they get the kid fed, they get the kid taught, but then when they are out and about, they have no weapon (a firearm, specifically) with which they could FIGHT for the safety of that child. So if it's a carjacker, a robber, a rapist, whoever, the only option of that woman is to capitulate and HOPE for MERCY? Again, I say "pitiful."



-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 07:59 PM   #2
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
It is the rare woman who will not fight with the ferocity of a grizzly to protect her child. She may not do the same to protect herself, preferring instead to count on luck or the presumed goodness in her attacker's heart. Attack the same woman's child though, and she becomes a banshee.

The trick is getting her to understand that a firearm will help her defend what she desires to defend. Not many people get children snatched every day, get murdered every day, or raped every day. We must learn vicariously from the experiences of others. Getting a woman to recognize that is the key. When that happens, she will carry a gun.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 09:32 PM   #3
Bender711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 340
if only they could see that.

yes, I agree I know some pacifistic people that hate guns and waht them all and all that own them to go away, and all I can hope is that they get mugged, I know that it sounds mean but I think that it is the only way that they will learn.
And even then I fell that for some it would only strengthen their resolve to be helpless, but they've got their right just as much as i do, and its their life not mine.
And alot of them will just see a gun as a danger to their kids and then will be even more afraid of them. They just can't think logicaly, what can you do?
__________________
From a Mod
"Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"
Bender711 is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 09:47 PM   #4
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Well, it's one thing for them to wish to be helpless, themselves.

The fact is, though, that it is quite common for such anti-self-defense people to seek, politically and legally, to deprive the rest of us of the right to make the choice to be able to defend ourselves.

If they would simply mind their own business, that would be fine. The trouble is, they don't.

-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 09:47 PM   #5
Trapp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Location: KTN
Posts: 1,221
My wife doesn't own a single weapon. I have over 15 guns and am building 10 more, not to mention the amount of knifes, and a few can-o' peppers I have.

She has one child of her own and one of ours. Ours, a girl, is only 8 weeks old today. Hers (which I consider mine), a boy, is 5.

I have no doubt in my mind she would fight tooth and nail for both of our children, yet she has no weapon.

She doesn't want to carry a knife because she is too "clumsy" with them. She does not carry a gun because she does not feel she can SAFELY carry, not to mention the dropping the kid off at school (read: anti-gun zone).

We have been married for a year as of 17SEP05. She accepts my guns, as she has seen them grow on me for the last 5 or 6 years. When we met I only had my 870 SuperMag for duck hunting.

Recently, about a month ago we have been going over gun safety, usage, and handing about twice a week. We have not been able to shoot due to the lack of places to shoot around here. When she feels comfortable with handling guns, we will find a place to shoot and practise, practise, practise.

I have NEVER felt my wife was, is, or ever will be a Pitiful Parent, because she does not carry a weapon. Granted she is not the extreme pacifist you had used as an example......
__________________
HDR Ban!?
It's a shame all of my guns sank with my boat last week...
Time to catch up.....like mayonnaise
Trapp is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 09:50 PM   #6
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Trapp, good luck. My girlfriend (as mentioned in other threads) was quite anti-gun when we met, and by this point (4+months later) she accepts that I carry daily. (It was not easy for her, but I would not budge. That's how it has to be.)

What is PCity, Florida? Is that Palm City?

If so, check out the outdoor range at Sebastian. It's municipal, and from what I have seen, it is quite nice. Separate sections for handgun, long gun, archery, etc., and each governed by a range officer (read: so they're safer than when nobody's watching, like at other places I've read about).


I have not been to shoot there, only to scope the place out for future shooting. The rates are very affordable, too. Something like $6.75 and I don't think there's a time limit.


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 09:56 PM   #7
Trapp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Location: KTN
Posts: 1,221
No its Panama city.

City of high gun prices and unfriendly dealers with $35 ffl transfer fees, who don't carry AK's or AK parts and won't get them for you cuz' "when you carry dem kinda guns people rob you.."
__________________
HDR Ban!?
It's a shame all of my guns sank with my boat last week...
Time to catch up.....like mayonnaise
Trapp is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 10:18 PM   #8
ozarkhillbilly
Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2005
Location: MO
Posts: 58
My wife doesn't own a single weapon. I have over 15 guns and am building 10 more

How did you work this out, but good for you, my wife has never bought a single weapon and does not even know how many I have but if you ask her she would say that they are all half hers execpt for the ones that are all hers. No your wife is not a pitiful parent because she does not carry a gun, maybe a little misguided or mislead but no more so then the parent with not enough life insurance or one that does not make their kid eat enough green beans. As long as a parent puts their childs well being and saftey above their own and is willing to fight and die or fight and kill for their children they are not pitiful.

However any parent that is not willing to fight and die and or kill for their child is not pitiful they are EVIL.
ozarkhillbilly is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 10:19 PM   #9
USP45usp
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2000
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,428
Hmmmm, Blackmind, your not related to the Weaver family in Florida are you? Just wondering.

As your original thread. Unfortunatly, there are parents out there that will allow bad to happen and will wail and plead that you don't hurt them, or kill their child (of which the BG may be doing many things with). They will consider it fine as long as everyone is alive after the fact.

But if human instinct(sp?) kicks in, I pity the fool that wishes to mess with family. The sad part is that this instinct, doesn't always kick in because it's been taken out of them.

Why do you think so many child molestations are happening now, with the parents right there in the house (well, this is just my thoughts on the subject).

A parents job is to protect the offspring by ANY means possible and if they chose not to use the best of means and something happens that they could have stopped, then they should be held accountable for their inaction.

Harsh maybe, justifiable entirely.

Excuse me if I don't spell his name correctly, but Ghadi who was a pacifist once said that if someone is shooting at you, then it would be okay to shoot back at them (paraphased, sorry, about to go to bed). This man didn't like violence in any form, yet knew that it was necessary if needed.

Wayne
USP45usp is offline  
Old September 30, 2005, 10:31 PM   #10
ozarkhillbilly
Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2005
Location: MO
Posts: 58
Why do you think so many child molestations are happening now

While driving to work about a month ago Roy Blunt was on a local morning talk show (Just a couple of days ago he was made majority leader of the House of Representatives in the U.S. congress) he was ask why he thought that there was so many child molesters now days, Blunts reply was because years ago child molesters where afaid of being caught not by the police but by the local fathers and he then went on to say that maybe some of that fear should be reinstalled in them. You have to love southwest mo.
ozarkhillbilly is offline  
Old October 1, 2005, 02:21 PM   #11
gddyup
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2005
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 219
Funny you mention this Black. I had a similar discussion with my wife just yesterday. Now, I've been with my wife for 14 years and we've been married for 7 of them. When we first got married, she didn't want me to bring my rifle and shotgun with me. She wanted me to leave them at my parent's house. Of course, I said "Hell No" and we came to a compromise. She has never really liked the fact that I owned these firearms but she dealt with it.

Fast forward a few years. Just before we decided to have our first child, she brought the guns up again and she asked if I would take them out of the house when the child was born. I said "Hell No". Again, we worked out a compromise and the guns stayed. I switched jobs this past April and became a full-time firefighter in my local town and it requires that I work 24 hour shifts twice a week. That puts my wife home alone at night with just my dog and my son. She had seen a story on the tv about 2 kids, I believe out west somewhere, who had staked out some houses. The 2 kids then went to each house until they finally found someone home and shot the 2 people living there. They had tried to make it look like there was a burglery but when they got caught they admitted that the only reason they had done it was basically to see what it was like to kill someone. After seeing that and thinking about it a little bit, she started to think differently.

2 months ago she came to me and started to ask about getting a handgun!!! We both ended up taking a handgun orientation class at Sigarms Academy and we both now have CCWs. She has comitted to practicing at the range with me at least every other week and she's not that bad a shot either! She has talked to her mom and her sister about it and they may be interested now in getting a handgun for self-defense. I was also asked by her to get her some OC spray which I just ordered the other day along with an OC training kit from FOX. My wife has come quite a long way since the days of "I don't want to have any guns in this house." She finally realized that the only person responsible for protecting her, and possibly her family, is herself. You can't rely on anyone else to do it.

I'm very proud of the decision she has made and her willingness to take the steps neccesary to learn how to safely handle a handgun, fire a handgun, and protect herself and my son. She even said that she thought she would NEVER have thought that someday she would own and feel comfortable having a handgun.
__________________
Firefighter/EMT - Currently teamed on Engine 1... I always get to play with my Knob!


"Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from poor judgement" - Unknown.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein
gddyup is offline  
Old October 1, 2005, 02:47 PM   #12
sm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2002
Posts: 1,810
Quote:
It is the rare woman who will not fight with the ferocity of a grizzly to protect her child. She may not do the same to protect herself, preferring instead to count on luck or the presumed goodness in her attacker's heart. Attack the same woman's child though, and she becomes a banshee.
+1

Maternal Instinct to protect the young is deeply ingrained. Natural Law.

Paternal Instinct exists as well, I sometimes really wonder if this is a "role" or "instinct". Now-a-days.

Society has been brainwashed such, Roles have been re-defined. Just ask any Hollywood Person for definiton.

Still - it seems to me, Maternal Instinct is the strongest. Not something expected from genes, no 'John Wayne Syndrome" to live up to...

Hell hath no fury like a women scorned - or - protecting what is dear to them.

Natural Law is - well Natural Law. NO matter what the Actors, Activists "say'.
__________________
Use Enough Gun
TFL Alumni
sm is offline  
Old October 1, 2005, 07:58 PM   #13
Bender711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 340
hey trapp, do some people call you captian? just wondering, because i know one guy that sounds like it could be you.
__________________
From a Mod
"Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"
Bender711 is offline  
Old October 1, 2005, 10:00 PM   #14
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,325
Quote:
It is the rare woman who will not fight with the ferocity of a grizzly to protect her child.
Yes, but they may only be inclined to use the same tools (tooth & nail). They've been brainwashed by years of inane movies which preach that unarmed women, kids and dogs will triumph over evil armed men because their hearts are pure.

No sarcasm, no humor intended.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old October 3, 2005, 07:52 PM   #15
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 2,970
You cannot force, or even talk some folks into seeing reality. If they die, and their child dies, they will be the quintessential American Victims. Happens every day.
The other thought that comes to mind is the huge number of American women that are killing their kids themselves.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old October 3, 2005, 08:21 PM   #16
joecski
Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Posts: 36
What I find interesting is this, good parents do all the right things to protect their children. As was stated, even a pacifist parent would probably protect their child tooth and nail. However, from my experience, a pacifist parent DOES NOT TEACH their child to protect him/herself in the world. They only teach them to be 'careful' in dangerous situations. So, the child grows up fearful of the world and unable to adequately defend themself. I find this to be almost criminally negligent and obviously consider it bad parenting. I am not advocating that every child be a little Rambo, but, if only for reasons of self-confidence, a child needs to learn that he/she has some control over their environment. Without the knowledge to protect themselves, this is not the case. Self-defense comes in many forms and does not have to involve weaponry. I have seen kids in karate classes that absolutely went from timid to social within months of training.
joecski is offline  
Old October 3, 2005, 11:15 PM   #17
Garand Illusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,278
My wife and I have been going round and round on this for two years.

We've been married for 13 years, I've always owned guns and she never complained about them (comes from a big gun owning family).

Then we had the kid, and she suddenly becomes convinced they are a hazard to our little girl. Then I get my CCW, and she become convinced I'm going to accidentally shoot the toddler/leave a loaded gun out and in her toy box or something (and of course, any child that finds a weapon will immediatley figure out how to get the safety off and shoot themselves in the head -- Don't mean to make too light of that, it does happen).

Now ... admittedly I can be spacey at times ... but with things that are lifethreatening like guns I have about a dozen mental protcols I maintain to make sure everything is kept safe and nothing is forgotten. i.e. in the house my gun is either on my person or in a safe, no exceptions. The only 2 places it ever goes out of the hosue is in my holster or in the console of my car. By never setting it down (i.e. when having a private moment in a public restroom) I don't chance walking away and leaving it.

But the funny thing is ... when we had our baby, I got MORE protective and more certain I wanted guns for defense. She went the opposite way, and wanted them out of the house -- which really took me by surprise.

Since I travel so much, I have tried repeatedly to get her to at least learn the combinations to my gun safes and learn about self defense. But while she claims she would draw a weapon to defend herself/baby, she keeps making silly statements like "I would just wave it at them to scare them off, and if that didn't work I would shoot them in the leg or the shoulder."

No need to point out the tactical mistakes trying that in a confrontation from 5 or 10 feet in a house, we all know them.

I don't know how to get my wife to change. We had a car jacking recently at our local 7-11 (woman coming out to her car, BG points a gun at her and says give me your keys, so of course she does and he drives away) and that opened her eyes just a little bit. But not much. And not enough.

I really wanted her to at least take the CCW classes, but couldn't even get her to do that. I'm afraid that for her it's scary to start preparing for a physical offense; she'd rather just be in denial and pretend such a thing can never happen. And fortunately for her we live in a neighborhood where it's highly unlikely -- but NEVER impossible.

I think the real problem is that in general women will fight like lions to defend their children, but they don't recognize/respond to a situation fast enough to get into that mode. By the time they do, their opportunity is gone.
Garand Illusion is offline  
Old October 3, 2005, 11:44 PM   #18
Clinot
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2005
Posts: 25
No woman will stand idly by while harm or the pretense of harm comes near her child, for herself she may think differently as XavierBreath mentioned, but when it comes to her own there will be no quarters taken.

I think your attitude towards the "fictional" woman in point was a bit harsh, just because she doesn't to carry or arm herself with a solid means of defense in a world that we gun owners view as a dangerous place, doesn't make her weak minded or negligent. Not everywhere you go has men of evil running rampant.

The challenge it seems is not to get her to realize that, but to get you to realize that.
Clinot is offline  
Old October 4, 2005, 09:04 PM   #19
ozarkhillbilly
Member
 
Join Date: July 17, 2005
Location: MO
Posts: 58
No woman will stand idly by while harm or the pretense of harm comes near her child, for herself she may think differently as XavierBreath mentioned, but when it comes to her own there will be no quarters taken.

Unfortunatly this is not true at all, all you have to do to see its not, is open up the paper or turn the tv on. Women stand by and let husbands, boyfriends and such molest and harm their children everyday. Some people just freeze when they are in danger and do not do anything. It is a sad fact that some kids are born into this world without anybody looking out for them.
ozarkhillbilly is offline  
Old October 4, 2005, 09:34 PM   #20
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Hillbilly, your point is well taken. Welcome to TFL.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old October 4, 2005, 10:37 PM   #21
MillCreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2004
Location: Snohomish County, Washington USA
Posts: 281
Quote:
If she doesn't, I think she's a pitiful parent. Any parent of a helpless child, who does not ensure that he/she can fend off attack for the sake of that child's safety is pitiful, in my book. Should not be in charge of caring for, much less teaching, that child.
For the original poster, I would be curious to know how many children you have and how long you have been married.
__________________
Regards,

MillCreek
Snohomish County, Washington USA
MillCreek is offline  
Old October 4, 2005, 11:28 PM   #22
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,928
Quote:
Pitiful, misguided, mislead, EVIL, pathetic, negligent, helpless, can't think logically, brainwashed ...
Strong words, people.

Someone pointed out to me awhile back that many people have a wildly inaccurate opinion of the risk presented by simply owning a firearm. That inaccurate opinion causes them to analyze the cost/benefit ratio of gun ownership incorrectly.

What this amounts to is that a lot of moms refuse to own guns, arm themselves, or consider protecting themselves & their children with a firearm. They've made that decision not because they don't want to protect their children, but because they have decided to protect against the risk that seems to them most likely to happen. A home invasion doesn't seem likely to these women, when balanced against the possibility that the children could get into the gun safe and hurt themselves.

And it's not really that unlikely of a decision, really -- especially considering that every single parent on the entire planet has children who have gotten into stuff they shouldn't, and that criminal attacks are after all rather rare.

pax

Mother is far too clever to understand anything she does not like. -- Arnold Bennett
pax is offline  
Old October 5, 2005, 12:44 AM   #23
bdc
Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Posts: 60
?

You are trying to make logical sense of something that you have already posited as being illogical.

There are as many realities as there are people. This was explained to me by a girlfriend when I came out of the field from three days of sniper school. People will walk around in condition white, leave the car unlocked, and never study self defense. They don't have to do so. They haven't personally experienced the crushing reality that some where some one exists who will hurt them or steal from them at the first opportunity.

My sister lives a mile away. She has declined firearms or even training. "OH, in an emergency, I will just come to your house" is her expression. And if I am not at home, am incapacitated, well . . . .
bdc is offline  
Old October 5, 2005, 05:03 AM   #24
jburtonpdx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2005
Posts: 267
Quote:
The 2 kids then went to each house until they finally found someone home and shot the 2 people living there.
Quote:
Some people just freeze when they are in danger and do not do anything.

Ok how do we turn this thread back to tactics and training? I say we tacticly present positive use of fire arms - in the case of above, does anybody know of a similar story where the home owner used a firearm to fend off such an attack? We need to support any news resource that willingly prints/broadcasts the use of firearms to defend.

As far as the freeze when in danger - it is taught to most Americans now thanks to our great school system. At most schools starting in kindergarten, if you are atacked you are supposed to tell the teacher. You are taught to not fight back. This gets ingrained, then what happens when bad guy attacks later? That is why we train now, to try and remove the fouled training we got as kids...
jburtonpdx is offline  
Old October 7, 2005, 01:09 PM   #25
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdc=
My sister lives a mile away. She has declined firearms or even training. "OH, in an emergency, I will just come to your house" is her expression. And if I am not at home, am incapacitated, well . . . .

bdc, have you asked your sister what she would do then?



Maybe the only way to get her to stand on her own is to TELL HER that you are not her paid professional bodyguard, and that you will REFUSE to shelter her if she comes over for that purpose because you OBJECT to her stubborn and ill-thought refusal to learn to PROTECT HERSELF.



You know... "tough love."



-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13092 seconds with 7 queries