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Old September 30, 2005, 04:44 PM   #1
sm
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I didn't get shot...

...nor did I shoot.

I did get myself distanced, observed and reported.

Just last night I went out to train my brain, and do some night shooting with all the meaness and car-jackings going on around here. I kept saying over and over to some folks Don't be where trouble is - leave if trouble comes.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter-CRSam.

Location:
Strip center just off a busy city 4 lane. Front door parking, and approximatly Four rows X Fifteen vehicles parking area between strip center and busy thoroughfare.

I pulled into lot, proceeded to park in front of tobacco store for smokes. I had not pulled all the way forward when I notice the two early twenties youths 'arguing' and one female being "pointed" at.

I immediatly went from yellow-orange to red. I put my truck in reverse and had to wait for a vehicle to pass. I kept watching rear-view and the "situation". I can leave and get smokes elsewhere...

Punches thrown, then fight goes to hood of maroon car next to me, cell phone used to hit the one on top in the head.

People inside store are at the big glass window, and door - just watching. Standing up and watching ... less than 4 feet of distance.

I can back up - finally.

Chrome gun is pointed at me, from a distance of him standing on parking lot just off the business sidewalk and the length of my hood. I get below dash, I can see from passenger side mirror a wee bit, I gotta get distance, distance...distance...

I get parallel to strip center, I raise up to get my head over to my driver's door I have cracked, I can drive with head down and door cracked.

The one youth tries to fire at the other youth, racks slide, points at me again. I sped down to some empty spaces in parking area in the midst of lot, a big SUV for cover, and I can observe, since I parked so poorly taking up more than one space.

People are standing on the sidewalk. NOT behind the approx 4 foot square columns, right there in the open as close as 6 feet behind the youth with the gun.

I get both vehicles descriptions,, who is driving what, as they leave in a big hurry- license plates are inked onto my palm, along with an arrow as to which direction they pulled out of lot onto thoroughfare.

I ease into Smoke shop "Everyone okay?"

Bad language, folks shaking, and one girl on the phone, with 911. She was having a real hard time trying to hold phone, and talk. "Here - you do it"...she lost it. I just let her read off my palm the #'s, and then repeated them loud enough to be heard by 911.

I gave vehicle descriptions, plates, directions.

I helped myself to styrofoam cups and went outide to cover the unfired ctgs. Finally one male from inside store came out, I informed him do NOT touch those, and keep folks and traffic from parking onto them.

I eased up and down finding and marking a few more. Along with looking for anything else of use

Officer shows up. The girl that had handed me the phone came out to door to holler at the male employee. Tells officer " he kept pointing the gun at this guy [me] and trying to shoot...".

Officer ask to see my ID, he also sees CCW permit. I nodded affirmative before he asked me if I was CCW-ing at the moment, or during situation.

He asked what was the deal was with the cups inverted on the lot, and sidewalk ... I told him. He grinned and gathered up the ctgs. .32ACPs. Then I gave my account, described the 3 persons, and what the gun looked like, direction they left ...etc.

Never asked me anything about my gun, just looked me straight in the eye and did that head nod - we understood each other.

The male employee has the cell phone, in pcs from hitting the one youth, in a napkin. He snagged it while I was marking ctgs. Officer add this to evidence.

The officer was very polite, firm, still polite- "did it ever dawn on anyone to lock the front door, and seek cover away from a gun being pointed and waved around less that 5 steps away?

Another male comes from out of the back room, " did I miss something?" . He totally froze and lost it, and he was not around or aware of all this going on.

One female, just up and said today is her last day. She starts a new job next Monday - she has been afraid something like this would happen.

Officer said I would be contacted if/ as needed. He appreciated my assistance and again he looked me straight in the eye, and gave that certain nod of understanding as I left.

---

Broad daylight, folks out and about. Situations happen in the blink of an eye.

I have been mulling this over. I probably made some mistakes, at this moment, I don't see them.

Only thing that comes to mind is I did have options, the most glaring is, if that gun had gone off while he was at my hood, quicker to throw gearshift down into drive and run truck at him. This would have stopped an immediate threat . Behind him was glass storefront with bars on the inside of tobacco store.

Regards,

Steve
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Old September 30, 2005, 04:50 PM   #2
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good job sm. i give you two bonus ninja points. wheres the thumbs up similie?
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Old September 30, 2005, 05:05 PM   #3
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My GF keeps telling me that smoking can kill ya...

Dayum SM, well done, way to keep your s together when it counted.


Did he ever actually fire? It sounds like you found several unfired cartridges, was he trying to fire but the gun wouldn't, and he kept racking it?

geeez... scary stuff. Glad you're OK.
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Old September 30, 2005, 05:17 PM   #4
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Still looking for any mistakes..... Great job!!!

****
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Old September 30, 2005, 06:17 PM   #5
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Steve,

I see no mistakes made.

You had the means to safely(sp) retreat, You got cover, you took info from the cars and directions, you were a good witness and you went home.

I guess some hard corp armchair warriors would say this or that (you should have done) but they weren't there, you were, and you handled it well IMHO.

Wayne
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Old September 30, 2005, 06:37 PM   #6
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Great job.

You were in a calm enough state of mind that you got some distance in (+1), got description (+1), got plates (+1) and you saved the evidence (+5). Good job man.

Continue to do what you do man. Oh, you were smoking? (-1)

Stay safe.
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Old September 30, 2005, 07:17 PM   #7
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Ugh, you're one of those horrible smokers!

Nothing you do could ever be good enough to overcome that horrible, nasty habit that you inflict on the world.




No, really, great job, man. Way to keep your wits about you!

Done this before, have ya?


-blackmind
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Old September 30, 2005, 07:34 PM   #8
sm
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Appreciate the kinds words.

This is the Tactics Training forum, hence the reason I share.

There is a HUGE difference in guns being pointed at you thru vehicle glass vs a computer moniter.

Then again I will take vehicle glass over nothing b/t me and BG anyday. I have been there w/o anything b/t BG and me. It sucks really bad. With no concealment or cover - it really really sucks.

My brain keep screaming- distance, distance, distance, and Denny's words Stay low and watch your back- These have got to be deeply etched inside my skull, I am convinced they are.

What type of gun I was carrying is NOT really important. Yes I was carrying a spare mag.

I did get to come home in one piece, and with my CCW. I do not have a Problem 2 to be concerned with.

I am not worried about the youths finding out as to whom or where I am. One...they probably are not concerned about me, maybe the LEO, not me.

Two- If I become a concern - deal with that bridge when I come to it. Not that there are not already considerations in place...as I do in my daily affairs anyway. Called awareness and being prepared.

.32ACP is bigger from muzzle end than most folks realize. Ironic, as I think about it now - I was concerned about his trigger finger being in the trigger guard, where the muzzle was pointed and his backstop.

I've shot windshields and vehicle glass with .32 ACP, both FMJ as he had and HPs.

Granted the who, what, when of his firearm , caliber, or ammo never entered my mind during all the situation. Only after it ended.

Playing it back - I keep seeing folks only 4- 6 steps away, frozen in place. Only movement I recall is hands to faces and jaws dropping - no movement to get out of the area.

I remember no screams, no speech from on-lookers. I am told there were none.

I only recall the two male youths, the one lady. Their sounds I recall every detail, I even heard the unfired ctgs hitting the pavement when the slide was racked, tennis shoes making noises on pavement, ...

WE have all parked in front, only going "to be a second", " gonna run in and out", "I'm just parked - right there ".

Complacency is a bad thing.

Repetition becomes habit - habit becomes faith. -Anon

WE learn the correct fundamental and basics, and we continue to train and practice these correct fundamentals and basics forever - Plaxco

Distance... Distance... Distance

Stay low and watch your back


Atlas Shrugged - there is a quote in regard to smoking, forgive me, I normally recall it, I cannot at this time. Maybe some else does [pax hint hint]

Run'em

Steve
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Old September 30, 2005, 07:43 PM   #9
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sm, just for you:
Quote:
I like cigarettes .... I like to think of fire held in a man's hand. Fire, a dangerous force, tamed at his fingertips. I often wonder about the hours when a man sits alone, watching the smoke of a cigarette, thinking. I wonder what great things have come from such hours. When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind – and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression. – Ayn Rand
Glad you're okay~!

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Governments have killed many more people than cigarettes or unbuckled seat belts ever have. – P.J. O'Rourke
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Old September 30, 2005, 07:47 PM   #10
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Any idea why the "youth" decided to point the gun at you? He did try to actually FIRE it at you, yes? Why? You had just pulled up to park for your shopping, and they were on the sidewalk in front of the shops having their little dispute; you arrived, and what, they just didn't like the fact that you were there? Had you said anything to them? Given them a "look"? I would like to understand why the guy with the gun perceived you as a threat enough that he attempted to shoot you.

Any idea why he had the failure-to-fire? He repeatedly chambered rounds, and they repeatedly failed to fire? I could see him trying to fire on an empty chamber -- losers like that seem to think that slapping in a full mag means the gun's ready to fire (thank god for the movies they watch for their "education"). But he ejected more than one cartridge onto the sidewalk?? What gives?

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Old September 30, 2005, 08:58 PM   #11
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pax,
I knew I could count on you my friend -thanks- that was the one!

Who knows the "why", or "when" some things occur? I went down one day and could not get up, it was time for that double knee surgery I figured I would have "someday". I took an aspirin product one day, my body decided it did not like aspirin anymore, anaphalaxis commenced. I keeled over one day, tossed my cookies and my appendix did not like me anymore.

The sun was shining such , glaring off the storefront. I just happened to be the one that pulled into "that" parking place at "that" time. Criminals (or aspiring ones) are not wired like normal folks, hence we call them criminals.

I have no idea what he/they/ she thought. I was more concerned about my thought processes at this time. Oh - yeah I was "reading" the situation, scanning 360*, "what can I do to get out of here NOW!

Yes - besides my "perspective" from muzzle end - witnessess all stated he made a clear indication he was trying to shoot me. ( the guy in the truck described as such and such..) Just they saw him do so more times than I did...I was kinda busy, and not keeping count. He had already defined his intent...I didn't need refresher lessons...

In a former life in which I was born into, and stayed in for 35 years, Security was a big concern. Awareness and Training of mind, and various resources were part of what one did. So yes I have been in situations before where the nature of the work made me more of a target if you will.

These awareness and training of mind were taught / passed onto to everyone...how raised, what you do...even if NOT raised in that business. Just those of us in the business - perhaps kicked it up a notch or five.

Now I am just a regular fellow, minding my own business. Always one to feel what is my business is mine - what someone else does is theirs - until it crosses over to infringe on me and mine.

I cared not one whit about these folks having a fight, I was leaving, going to let them be. I saw nobody in harms way, nobody being attacked, or anything.

He...repeat...HE chose for whatever reason to produce the gun and point and attempt to fire at me more than once. At this point this IS my concern. NOT for the other guy he is fighting - for ME.

MY considerations: I can see the folks behind the glass of the store, more to the left -of my backstop. MY life is in danger, and I was trying to evade.

If I cannot evade parking spot by vehicle and have to shoot weakhanded out of driver's door/ window...

What if he comes around to driver's side...passenger side...

If I cannot evade parking spot by vehicle and have to exit vehicle, car door/ vehicle for cover, backstop, the shot from kneeling, on the ground, shooting under my truck door, front of my truck....under the glass storefront is brick....

I was accessing for sure.

There is a difference in being at the range or a stage...one you have walked thru, PRE-accessed, and drawing and firing.

My stride equates one step equals one yard. From my truck door to front of truck is 3 steps, add one yard for his distance, making it 4 yards.

I practice from 1 yd, 3yds, 5yds, 7 yds , 10yds and further out as well.

There is a difference in being at the range or stage and knowing.

I know I have with the CCW I had on person - from concelament, IWB , cover garmet - to target the first shot in 0.9 seconds. I have repeated this time quite often, timer goes off, and I shoot. I have kept all 10 rounds in a playing card as well from 1 yd to 10 yds.

Last night I kept running 1.1- 1.2. doing the same drill.

I have repeated these drills weakhanded, times are slower, I also do the draw fire and transition to weak hand and have kept all rounds in a playing card out to 7 yds, at 10 I kept 9 in, one touching.

Last night , using ambient light, I kept all round in playing card out to 5 yds, at 7 yds only 8/10, at 10 yds 7/10. The others were close - except one - I clearly pulled that one.


Differences in the "holster" today would have made my draw slower...not much, still slower is slower.

The reality is...I have been out in the country and had a rabid dog / pack of rabid dogs appear from seemingly nowhere, right around the turn, bend, big tree, farm shed.

I do not always get the gun out of holster as fast and my shots may not all fall inside a playing card. I have a better times and hits with a shotgun being carried in one hand...I always shot from low gun position...

Surprises do not equate stages. Guess that is why folks harp on this training stuff...

On the streets if you will, one does not get a walk thru, does not know the backstop, and there is no timer to signal the start.

I would of preferred a 12 ga pump with slugs today, that I can tell you for sure. Just walking around with a shotgun is not permissable here. Not a good way to keep one under the seat...gonna take a l-o-n-g er Simplex box for sure.

My mentors and elders growing up shared with me. Folks have continued to. I in turn share and pass forward what little I can.

Next time you pull into a store front parking place, do a what if. Access and figure out the what, when, how and where. This is what/ how I was taught.

Just last night I was sharing with folks driving/ being a passenger and having to access firearm and shooting...

In training - my mentors and I might just be talking, and someone pulls a rope, and a paint can comes swinging down...

Just walking the property
Someone tosses a soup can...
A pc of 2x4

Slams on the brakes on a farm road and points at a bush..." trouble son - whatcha gonna do?

Sorry son - you are dead, should have been paying attention and had some idea of doing something...even if it was wrong...actions, even wrong ones are better than just being caught with your britches down and mouth hung open...".

I miss some old mentors - I surely do. I may have cussed them at times...I know now even more than I did back then..it was all in my best interest they did what they did to instill some things in me.

We take it one day at a time, try to learn at least one something each day - try to pass forward one something each day as well.

Steve
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Old September 30, 2005, 09:31 PM   #12
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Anybody know if there's a pistol that leaves the safety on after the slide is racked? I'm really only familiar with the M9 when it comes to autos.

Don't be too suprised if the dummy had the wrong type of ammo.

Quote:
But he ejected more than one cartridge onto the sidewalk?? What gives?
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Old September 30, 2005, 09:47 PM   #13
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Steve,

I played the events of my post (it's probably buried deep now) over and over for two weeks in my mind.

Granted, I didn't have a gun pointed at me during this time, but still, the incident rattles through your mind and you think this, thought that, over and over and over again.

You did well friend (if I may), you did well.

Right now, the only thing that I care about is that sm (you) is still with us. We may not agree on all counts (other threads), but your presence is all that matters.

And as you remembered many things from the board during, so will we remember this and your actions if we find ourselves in the same or alike position.

Wayne
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Old September 30, 2005, 09:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
But he ejected more than one cartridge onto the sidewalk?? What gives?
Too many variables:

Safety on.
Wrong ammo.
Dead Primers from WD 40 or similar.
Wrong mag.
Mag not fully inserted.
Kept hitting mag release while trying to shoot.
Etc.


One learns from mistakes - less expensive, and less painful if mistakes are someone else's -Mentor of mine

Hence the reason I harp along with the Choir.

Know your gun, ammo, mags/ speedloaders.
Gun must feed and extract everytime with ammo. Test ammo for reliabilty, along with each mag, and speedloaders ( do they hang up on stocks?)

Get a gun that fits YOU.
Use ammo that works everytime in YOUR gun.
Choose a platform / firearm -One you can manipulate under stress.
One YOUR hands can reach trigger, safety, slide release, thumb-latch, any and all controls...etc...

Then

POA/POI , training of gun, mags/ speedloaders, holsters...

As the man said....
Good shooters have more monies in training, practice, range fees and lessons - than the actual firearm -Anon

Good shooters are made not born -Fred Misseldine.

Who says one cannot learn Responsible Firearm Ownership and Related Stuff from a BG?


USP45usp-

Did we disagree on something? Did I put up a good fight? I done forgot if we did. 'Course I am older, done reached curmudeonhood, working on Reprobate status here on TFL...

Agree to disagree.

We and all of us can do that. We can attack the posts and asks for cites, links, clarifications, for references to learn about a subject.

Have I bugged folks off-forum about where to learn about something...boy have I !! And appreciated it as well.

WE don't attack each other - we are on the same side.

I appreciate the kind words.



Run 'em

Steve
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Old September 30, 2005, 10:02 PM   #15
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Tank, Off the top of my head, my Bersa does.....cheap gun too....




Steve,
Just a question, Do you have any "profesional" experience with guns? (LE and such?)
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Old September 30, 2005, 10:05 PM   #16
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I think threads like this are great. It helps people understand what to do in a situation instead of going hardcore guns blazing like some people say thye would do . Glad your ok. Be safe!
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Old October 1, 2005, 12:14 AM   #17
sm
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Quote:
Steve,
Just a question, Do you have any "profesional" experience with guns? (LE and such?)
< Rich has just opened a Shiner's Bock, leans back in chair, pax has chin in hand and awaits, Denny is grinning, Jeff White is waiting, and who knows who else is awaiting my reply>

Err...this is TFL , and err...

Can ya'll lean back a bit? I feel a warmish and my personal space is kinda...I need more room please. Thank You.

[gulp]

I have never attended a Professional Training class per se'.

I was raised a certain way, I had my mentors and elders whom shared with me their training.

I continued to learn from Military, LEOs and some Persons well trained and disciplined in various areas. I sought Private Instructions from some, others -we just became friends and shared with me.

Some of these have reputations and have written books and such. We just knew each other, hung out, shot together and I learned from them.

Many have passed on, ill health or infirmities do not allow them to shoot, or they cannot shoot the discipline known for anymore.

Back before the Internet, back before many references and works we know today. Back before so many things that are considered "acceptable" ,"suggested" , or "must have" - these, some were in trial stages. LEOs shot quals from 50 yards, Folks used common sense, discretion, and keeping one's wits about them.

Later on some ideas about Firearms and equipment were considerations. First though, and has always been it is NOT the Firearm, or equipment. It is the person, mindset, using the brain to NOT get into something- and to have a way out if did.

The firearm has always been "one of the tools" in the toolbox - NOT the only tool.


Run'em

Steve
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Old October 1, 2005, 08:10 AM   #18
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Well.......all I have to say is ......Um........



Shooting for money would be professional if you ask me.......
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Old October 1, 2005, 09:15 AM   #19
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Need a mentee?
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Old October 1, 2005, 11:00 AM   #20
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You kept your head in the fight without having to engage in the fight. Good job, Steve.

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Old October 1, 2005, 11:08 AM   #21
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Steve, ya did gud.
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Old October 1, 2005, 11:36 AM   #22
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Heads up play Steve. I think you handled it just fine.
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Old October 1, 2005, 11:50 AM   #23
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Thanks guys.

The real world differs from the virtual - for sure.

I gotta buy gas today, I wonder if the Gas Station makes home deliveries...I only need about a quarter of tank to fill up.

Oh not worried about being robbed or car-jacked. Just the last time I bought gas I was 'surrounded' by folks with cell-phones whilst pumping gas.

Forget the arguments of "second hand smoke" ...it is that idea of being collateral damage because someone "has" to make/ answer a call while messing with gas.

Sigh...
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Old October 2, 2005, 03:06 PM   #24
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Good thing criminals prefer those cheap chrome guns. I'm sure it's saved quite a few people's lives...like yours.
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Old October 2, 2005, 04:58 PM   #25
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Mr. Policeman came to visit me...

As has been stated by me and others...sometimes trouble just wanders around.

About 3:45 - am I hear shots ring out, I was on the hardwood floor by the 2nd or 3rd shot. I waited, then another mag of shots rang out.

As the crow flies - 2 blocks away at the Exxon station open 24 hrs.

Since I was not sure if these folks knew about the 4 Rules, especially Rule 4, I just stayed down and admired my bed linens in the ambient lighting provided by street lights and my motion lights.

Tires squeal, doors slam, fussing and carrying on, high revving engines...

I ease to peek thru the blinds. Seems like everyone with a siren and flashing lights showed up.

I hear the sounds of cars going every which-a-way.

Oh well, I'm up. Get coffee and notice with all the Professional folks around, might as well stroll onto to front lawn and see if I have any new holes, or if my truck does. Nope.

Took a long time to 'process' it seems, took 4 folks just to string up all the yellow tape.

Hours later "ding dong". Officer asks if I was awakened earlier in the morning.
I gave the time and described what I recalled about shots fired and direction of vehicles going by noise.

He grinned when I mentioned I was paying real particular attention to my hardwood floor and bed linens.

"Yes sir, imagine so. Seems only 3 of you folks heard anything, you are the only one that counted shots...and has any idea of direction of vehicles".

I guess hardwood floors have better acoustics or something - you reacon?

I didn't bother to ask what all went on. He volunteered the fact the Exxon would most likely be open today.

Point is: Things have been going on forever - just now coming to the attention of folks it seems.
Most likely things are gonna get worse with the economy and such.

Some will be prudent and take precautions in travels and such.
Same folks will become complacent pretty soon.
Some will stay in denial and make sure dial a prayer is on speed dial.

Me, I need a throw rug to cushion my knees next time I roll and drop...with winter coming on especially. My dust ruffle needs laundering.

Well at least two BGs had guns that worked with ammo in them...

One never knows...

Radio news reports two cars pulled into the Exxon station , started shooting at each other.

Approx 4 miles away a vehicle was stopped at another Gas station, driver realized his 14 y/o passenger had been shot. 14 y/o was dead at the scene.

Before folks start getting into why folks need to be out at that time of morning...

I used to be on call and like many of us, we were called in the wee hours of the morning.

Legitimate folks doing legitmate jobs, Doctors, Nurses, Radiology, Anesthesia, Scrub Techs, and there are other Prefessions as well.

So one is driving to or from being on call, may not be much traffic, still one has to pay attention.

This Exxon is where a Stop light is. Anyone at that light could have been hit, anyone passing by.

We need to be aware and think out of the box is all.
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