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Old September 27, 2005, 12:01 PM   #1
leadcounsel
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What to do in THIS HD scenario?

I think this is a very realistic scenario, so help me decide what the best decision is:

You live in a typical wood framed urban area; possibly a condo, townhouse, apartment, or close together free standing homes.

It's late at night and you are in your home. You're startled to see two burglars on the other side of your house crossing from one room to the next. In the two seconds you see them, they don't see you. You are absolutely sure that they are burglars and you remember that you left a door open (for whatever accidental reason) and they gained access through the open door. Both men are wearing all black, ski masks, and gloves and are carrying firearms. You see them for about two seconds as they pass across a hallway 30' away behind an opening. If you have a family, they are asleep upstairs. The badguys are between you and the exit, and the badguys are also between you and your family asleep upstairs. Luckily you have a handgun with one magazine of ammunition, but no phone closeby (or the line is cut) and nothing else on your person.

What do you do?
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Old September 27, 2005, 12:11 PM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
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By stairs - do you mean the family is upstairs? Need a little more layout here.
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Old September 27, 2005, 12:12 PM   #3
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Edited. Family asleep upstairs and out of "overpenetration" danger and the BGs are between you and the upstairs and the exit.
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Old September 27, 2005, 01:01 PM   #4
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In my house, Both in black, Both armed.... There would only
Be my version of what happened.
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Old September 27, 2005, 01:11 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
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Bullets do go through floors.

Anyway, there are three main responses:

1. Do nothing but observe - hope they steal stuff and leave.

2. Confront them from concealment - you probably don't have real cover in the house. Hope you win the gun fight if they resist.

- A subset is to make some noise and hope they leave without a direct confrontation.

3. Fight immediately:
a. Jump out and yell - I am a mall ninja and prepare to die
b. Ambush them as you are unobserved. In the dark, that does work well.

All have risks, I won't recommend 3a.
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Old September 27, 2005, 01:33 PM   #6
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You saw where they went, so wait where they will come out.

Second TATER on whose going to be the only person giving their version of the story.
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Old September 27, 2005, 01:37 PM   #7
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You can lose a firefight, tough guys.
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Old September 27, 2005, 01:39 PM   #8
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IMO, if they move towards the stairs (family) or you, take them out without warning. Lacking the ability to call for help or have all family members safely escape, this is no time to "play fair".
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Old September 27, 2005, 02:55 PM   #9
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In this situation I think the best decision is to conceal oneself and take a momentary wait and see approach. Maybe they would only steal a few items and leave. However, it would be tricky because if they start making their way up the stairs, you definately don't want a gunfight to erupt in an upward angle.

Of course bullets will go through floors, but it's less likely while everyone is on the main level. If you wait and see, one of them might head upstairs and then there's a real problem with the angle and with hostages.

I would try to silently conceal myself and/or move into position to have them both in the same sight pattern, take an aimed center mass shot double tap at one and then as quickly as possible shoot the other. If they were to separate, I would still try to take out the first and immediately take concealment hoping to ambush the 2nd as he either tries to flee or checks on his buddy.

I think the only survival here is surprising them from concealment. Hopefully the first volley of shots would wake someone and get LEO on the way, but that might take 10 minutes.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:14 PM   #10
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I'm taking the first opportunity to stop the threat, both of them. No margin for forgiveness or wait and see with my family in the house upstairs. I guess I move to better protect the stairs and end their breathing as quickly as possible.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:26 PM   #11
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If these guys are in my house, wearing ski masks and openly carrying firearms, my first assumption is that they are not the average burglars looking for an easy score. That being said, I know the layout of my house better than them, and can navigate in the dark proficiently. So, my objective would be to cut off the route to the second floor while remaining out of sight. Again, I know my house, I know if you go in one door where you have to come out - the perps might not. So, I would try to ambush them, most preferably as they exit a doorway leading into a small hallway. There are no places to hide in a hallway and I wouldn't have to aim at two separate targets. As stated earlier, the only version of this story the police will get is mine.

Now, in reality there would be no ambush in my house, my 75 pound pitbull would probably be on the case long before I arrived!
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:28 PM   #12
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Keeping them from upstairs (family) is paramount to me. So I'd position myself somewhere I can view the stairs and stop anyone from going up. Then I'd wait - if they go away, fine. But I sounds like thier doing a thorough search and will come my way or go upstairs. So I'd prepare myself to shoot at either moment and pray thier are together at the time - don't want a survivor blasting away at blind noise and suspected threats which will mostly likely becoming from upstairs as well as my guns muzzle...

Not good - but more than likely they will be off at the first shot. Guess I'd risk that to save having to shoot both of them down without looking down thier muzzle's first.

Heck - I'd probably rethink this as I waited and shoot both as soon as they come into view at the same time. I'm leaning toward it already as I typed my first response...

Yep - two down leave no danger to me or family. But I'm still waiting for them to come into my area where I monitor the stairs or the stairs themselves...

There's also always the problem of them having more friends out of sight who'll will act to help thier dastardley buds when the music stops.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:31 PM   #13
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Second TATER on whose going to be the only person giving their version of the story.
+3
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9mm. Because no matter how you try to rationalize it, .45 ACP is still for people trying to compensate for -something-.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:33 PM   #14
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I usually stay out of these scenarios, but what the heck..

How are these guys armed? Did you see a handgun tucked in a belt? Or are they walking around your house with shotguns in hand?

If I had a chance of getting these guys, I'd be tempted to do it. I'd want to stay concealed. However if they start shooting and don't see me they might shoot up the stairway, slinging stray bullets toward my family. I mean, where else would an awakened homeowner be shooting from? If they see where the shots come from, of course they will be shooting at me, and that's not good either.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:39 PM   #15
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Modern forensics will tell the tale as well as what you say.

What's everyone's plan, if you miss or the shots aren't fatal?

I love gun lists where the double tap immediately eliminates the threat and all our hits under stress are dead on.

Of course, I'm such a great shot that only I will tell the tale.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:44 PM   #16
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A question for you guys who say yours will be the only story to be told...

When the bad guys are down and one of 'em doesn't seem to be dead and just won't quit breathing on his own - what'reya gonna do? - deliver a Coup de Grace last shot to the head? The mindset to be the only survivor is fine and dandy all right, but in reality there may very well be a lucky badguy who still makes it out though he is incapacitated. Plan on it, Murphy does.
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Last edited by yorec; September 27, 2005 at 03:47 PM. Reason: To add - Ha, Glenn - great minds think alike!!! Scarey...
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:49 PM   #17
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How are they armed? If these are a couple of gangsta types, with a Jennings .25ACP each, then the hunt is on. I have the advantages of surprise, and knowing the layout. On the other hand, if it is a couple of rogue SWAT troopers, I may try to sit tight and hope for the best. Of course in any case, if they go for the stairs, I have people I am responsible for and sitting tight is no longer an option.
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Old September 27, 2005, 03:52 PM   #18
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We have to stop being realistic, it is scaring the commandos.
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Old September 27, 2005, 04:07 PM   #19
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Glenn,
I have all the respect in the world for you my friend. I can tell
throughout your posts that your genuine.
No one knows how they will react. Honestly though, I think I would
be working from anger not fear.. At what point are they to accept
responsibility for entering my home. In today's climate I've had it.
My family...My house..heck my stuff. It stopped being a property
crime once they entered with guns..Ya'know..

Old Southern say'en.. better to be judged by twelve than carried by six..
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Old September 27, 2005, 04:20 PM   #20
joecski
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Quote:
My family...My house..heck my stuff. It stopped being a property crime once they entered with guns..
This is the biggest problem with the scenario, burglars do not enter houses carrying firearms in plain sight. Most burglars never carry a weapon or enter a house that is occuppied. With that in mind, I would have to say the lethality of the scenario is raised beyond the idea of protecting your stuff and my main concern would be protecting my family. Honestly, they could steal everything I own and I wouldn't care less, but I doubt that is the intention of two masked, armed men prowling my house while my family is in it. This doesn't look like a burglary, and my response would be in accordance with the threat. That is what my post earlier was stating, not trying to go 'commando', just trying to protect my family.

On a trip to reality, I doubt anyone could get into my house undetected anyway, and if they were good enough/well planned enough to do that, I doubt my response would matter.
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Old September 27, 2005, 04:34 PM   #21
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well duhhhh! i first activate my homes defensive computer (remotes on a chain around my neck).
first the computer scans the home silently, isolating the areas which it needs to 'cleanse' (it will only 'cleanse' DNA that is not on file, thats why you gotta submit a blood/skin/hair sample before you enter my abode). since its night time, the computer (i call her the DefHoCon - Defensive Home Control) sets off flashbangs followed by smoke 'nades.
then i grab my Deagle .50 with lasergrips and lase the room, but its just for show. i reflect the laser off the mirrors all around my home so they can't get a true fix on where i am. that way the perps will (that is, if they can) expend their shots fruitlessly.
once they are done shooting, i activate DefHoCon's secondary measures, a sleeping gas. once they are out cold, DefHoCon contacts the authorities.

now, if the perps are wearing gasmasks and the sleeping gas doesnt work, we go to plan M (plans C through L are classified), which entails dropping crash test dummies holding airsoft weapons and over the intercom is a voice commanding the perps to drop their weapons and go into the prone position.

if that doesnt work i unleash my Robodog (its really just my dachshund, but hes wearing a full level 7 suit (my contacts with NSA give me the latest body armor that the civvie market cant get). but Robodog won't go in without having the proper motivation, so i have to throw a few doggie treats in there that he'll run after. poor mutt, he hasnt figured out yet he can't eat them when hes wearing his suit! haha! (dont worry i treat him very well when the sit has been dealt with and everyones been debriefed.)

now, should Robodog fail in his efforts to stop the perps i bring out the big guns. i have a dual delivery system that mounts two potato guns on my shoulders and a state of the art IR aiming system. i juiced up the guns so that they can launch frozen tatertots at 450 fps, enough to go through two layers of sheetrock but no more. i like to fire a volley of warning shots, but if necessary i can target specific body parts that will immediately incapacitate them. any taters that miss are collected for the next breakfast.

did i mention that i'm so tactical it hurts?
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Last edited by spacemanspiff; September 27, 2005 at 05:13 PM.
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Old September 27, 2005, 05:12 PM   #22
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Well, Spiffman - that's a pretty spacey system ya got there...
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Old September 27, 2005, 05:36 PM   #23
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I have an idea: maybe conceal yourself and spy on them until one or both set down their guns to pick up some valuable, then blast away!

In this situation, I have to agree with the majority to position yourself in the best concealment so you can view the stairs, your first shot will be aimed and surprised. Hopefully your next shots will be true. You can probably squeeze of a few shots before the second BG can react and hopefully you can hit both BGs.

Does anyone have a problem with shooting them both in the back if the opportunity arose; say they both walked directly past you and didn't see you and were walking into an open room with their backs to you. Now is the perfect opportunity to put one in each of their backs at 10' range. Do you shoot?
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Old September 27, 2005, 06:25 PM   #24
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Does anyone have a problem with shooting them both in the back if the opportunity arose; say they both walked directly past you and didn't see you and were walking into an open room with their backs to you. Now is the perfect opportunity to put one in each of their backs at 10' range. Do you shoot?
That's a mixed bag there.Ten feet away you can't miss. Of course, ten feet away, if they don't go down, they can't miss either.

BTW, has anyone taken into consideration there are neighbors two sheets of chipboard/drywall away. What if you miss? What if the bad guys miss while trying to shoot you?
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Old September 27, 2005, 06:33 PM   #25
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the DefHoCon - Defensive Home Control
Where do I get one of those!? How much did it cost!? Do you have a weblink for it!?
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