The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 27, 2005, 06:42 PM   #26
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,107
Quote:
Does anyone have a problem with shooting them both in the back if the opportunity arose; say they both walked directly past you and didn't see you and were walking into an open room with their backs to you. Now is the perfect opportunity to put one in each of their backs at 10' range. Do you shoot?
yeah i got a problem with it, because the law would have a problem with it. right LEAD COUNSEL???? i can only use deadly force when lives are threatened. if i am hiding in my home and the intruded doesnt see me, even though he/she is armed i am not in the right (at least in my state) to open fire.

besides, won't the crook need to have both hands free? one to hold the sack and the other to put your stuff in it? unless your perp has three arms and is using one to hold a gun, he probably wont be a threat. besides, you wear your body armor all the time, right? just do a tac roll and take their feet out from under them, we do it all the time up here, except we call it 'native bowling'. simply take a running charge at a group of homeless drunk natives and jump into the fetal position as you get towards their feet. you get five points for each one you knock over.
but i digress, i've gotten off topic.

Quote:
Where do I get one of those!? How much did it cost!? Do you have a weblink for it!?
my DefHoCon is so state of the art it can't be put on the regular old internet. its only available through the super-secret XXX***XXX****** THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED BY THINGS THAT GO BUMP IN THE NIGHT WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULAR DE-PROGRAMMING.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 06:55 PM   #27
pistolpete
Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 51
I am writing this with out reading all the posts.

This one is easy. Two armed men with masks in your house with you and your family? Take them out before they see you.

Here is the tough one. What if you can't tell if they are armed? Now what? Might be going to jail if you shoot and they are not armed.(that is true, as well as Bull Sh*t, damn lawyers)
__________________
I have never met a liberal who wouldn't give you the shirt off of someone else's back.
pistolpete is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 06:59 PM   #28
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
You can lose a firefight, tough guys.
Quote:
We have to stop being realistic, it is scaring the commandos.
Wow, Glen. Someone poop in your Cheerios this morning?
Trip20 is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 07:04 PM   #29
Bender711
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 340
once they are in my house all bets are off law or no law(so glad im in FL)... have any of you ever heard of splinter cell?! just sneak up on them and shank them lol.]

oooooo bacl to the ninja thing!! ill just pull out myu katana that i just happen to be carrying and decapitate both of them in one fell swoop.
__________________
From a Mod
"Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"
Bender711 is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 07:09 PM   #30
xXStarScreamXx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2005
Location: Nor*Cal 707
Posts: 353
My cellphone sleeps next to me as it is my alarm clock. Somy first action is call the cops and tell 'em to bring a coroner because if SHTF someone is gonna be dead. Them or me. If possible I'd do a silent head count, wife and kids. Next wait in an ambush position keeping them away from the wife and kids. Close the action on my shotgun (i dont do pumps.). If they come half way up the stairs they have a opening salvo of 00 and 4 Buck coming down. If they dont they can take my stuff. but if they come up those stairs they are dead.

Ohh and I'd sue their families for the cost of cleaning my carpet and rebuildign the wall after the 00 and 4 tear everythign to bits.
__________________
I still don't see why cannibalism is a crime.
xXStarScreamXx is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 07:26 PM   #31
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,932
Quote:
yeah i got a problem with it, because the law would have a problem with it. right LEAD COUNSEL???? i can only use deadly force when lives are threatened. if i am hiding in my home and the intruded doesnt see me, even though he/she is armed i am not in the right (at least in my state) to open fire.
Leadcounsel usually seems to be right on the money with the law. Usually conservative if anything. He's either already considered the legal ramifications, or he's trying to see how bloodthirsty we are.

Here, shooting in the back in a burglary would usually be defensible. They are armed. In a burglary in Florida, from what I have been instructed, a burglar is presumed to be armed or he couldn't have broken in. He'd have to have burglary tools, such as a prybar, which would be a deadly weapon.

Here we already know he is armed with a gun and that makes him a threat, doesn't it?
wayneinFL is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 07:45 PM   #32
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,107
Quote:
Here we already know he is armed with a gun and that makes him a threat, doesn't it?
or it might be my wifes kid brother who was out snowmachining with his buddy and they are still wearing their skimasks and they always are armed and open carry out in the wilderness.

someone in my concealed carry class asked a similar question. then stated 'i dont care who it is i'll shoot anyone in my home i dont recognize'.

but you know what? i'm just not tactical enough to answer this scenario. when in my home i dont have my gun on me.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 07:49 PM   #33
dawg23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 393
I have no qualms at all about shooting an intruder in the back. Nor do the statutes in Louisiana.

I'm sure we weren't the first state to enact a "Shoot The Burglar Law," but we have one and every District Attorney in my part of the state is a strong supporter.

If we encounter an intruder in our home, we don't even have to show that we were in fear of death or severe bodily harm. Just SHTTG
__________________
.
www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net
dawg23 is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 07:50 PM   #34
Wynterbourne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2004
Location: Bedford, TX
Posts: 292
Quote:
Here is the tough one. What if you can't tell if they are armed?
I hope to heck Lawdog ain't reading this. But I can guaran-d@mn-tee you that they'd be armed by the time the police got there to clean up.
__________________
They got mine once. Never again. Molon Labe!

"You can say ‘stop’ or ‘alto’ or use any other word you think will work, but I’ve found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much the universal language." - Clint Smith

9mm. Because no matter how you try to rationalize it, .45 ACP is still for people trying to compensate for -something-.
Wynterbourne is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 08:06 PM   #35
Harley Quinn
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: State of KALI
Posts: 1,531
I agree with post #8

Harley
Harley Quinn is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 08:11 PM   #36
roy reali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 3,248
Ditto

Post number eight is right on. Sounds like the response of someone ground in common sense and reality.
roy reali is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 08:20 PM   #37
k9lwt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2005
Location:
Posts: 123
Dream world:
Just open up on them center mass and win the firefight.

Reality:
Take cover upstairs, get my dog to make some noise while grabbing an (870 equipped with a tactical light/buckshot, and my vest-all of which is in my closet. I don't want to use just a handgun if I have better tools. I scream at them to leave or they will be shot. If they approach and I need to use deadly force, that's what happens. If they choose to stay with a barking German Shepherd going nuts, and me screaming at them while racking a round they are most likely in the deathwish category. You need to realize that you can't just do the right thing without legal issues and people second guessing you until and during a trial (and there WILL be a trial). You need to prove that you exhausted all options before using justified deadly force.
k9lwt is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 08:50 PM   #38
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,932
spaceman
Quote:
or it might be my wifes kid brother who was out snowmachining with his buddy and they are still wearing their skimasks and they always are armed and open carry out in the wilderness.
scenario says they really are burglars.

leadcounsel
Quote:
You are absolutely sure that they are burglars
Really burglars. Your wife's kid brother better not be sneakin' around in leadcounsel's house stealin' stuff after snowmobiling or he's gonna get shot. In the back from ten feet away, no less.

Seriously, though, isn't any reasonable person with two strangers wandering around the house, gun in hand, going to view themselves as threatened? Feel threatened? Be threatened? Would a jury convict someone of murder for neutralizing a threat like that? In Alaska, I don't know. Around here, with a good lawyer, I doubt it.

In any case, I'm not gonna offer them a hot cup of tea. Personally, I'd watch them and if they needed to be shot, they'd get shot. As I said in previous posts, I would avoid a confrontation if I thought there would be a possibility of bullets leaving the structure and entering another. Or entering me.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 09:03 PM   #39
Eightball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2005
Location: On my Computer
Posts: 289
Quote:
3. Fight immediately:
a. Jump out and yell - I am a mall ninja and prepare to die
b. Ambush them as you are unobserved. In the dark, that does work well.

All have risks, I won't recommend 3a.
LMAO
__________________
Own (among others): S&W 620
RRA 16" Middy AR15
M1 Garand, July '42
M1 Carbine, Inland '43
Eightball is offline  
Old September 27, 2005, 09:10 PM   #40
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
Honestly in that scenario, I would try to take cover and not be seen. If at all possible, I wait till they are in another area, and make for the stairs. Wake up the wife, grab the kids as silently as possible, and put them all in the master bedroom, wife with cellphone and pump 12 gauge, lock the door behind me, and take cover near the top of the stairs. First unlucky bastard whos head comes level with the top of those stairs is as dead as I can make him.
Derius_T is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 01:32 AM   #41
SAXD9
Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: NW North Carolina
Posts: 85
2 masked men, in my house, carrying guns.

I'm gonna cap the first one with a well aimed shot to the head, and then unload on the other one.
In my house any shot would be under 15', and if I can see well enough to see they have guns, I can make the headshot.

And since they both have guns, by the time someone gets there they will both have guns in their hand, or on the floor nearby.

Then I'm gonna go to court and go after any assets they or their family posess, to ease my mental anguish. Don't think I won't test the legal waters on this one!
__________________
~GhostDog~
Springfield Armory XD-9 Service Model/Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr +P+ JHP
Beretta 21A .22LR/ CCI Quik-Shoks
Norinco SKS/ Wolf 7.62x39 FMJ
SAXD9 is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 06:57 AM   #42
SomeKid
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 107
Quote:
what'reya gonna do? - deliver a Coup de Grace last shot to the head?
If he is already armed, he can always commit suicide...maybe with some help.

Quote:
Does anyone have a problem with shooting them both in the back if the opportunity arose
I have the same problem with doing this that I do with breathing - none at all. Armed thugs moving around my house, family asleep, someone is going to die, and it will be a cold day in hell before I turn and run and abandon my duties to my family. In this very limited circumstance, F the law, F safety, your family is depending on YOU.
SomeKid is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 07:28 AM   #43
Ac1d0v3r1d3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2005
Location: Goldendale, Washington
Posts: 439
its your FAMILY!

yeah what he said
__________________
I aint the worlds best writer nor the best speller But when i believe in something i'm the loudest yeller.
Woody Guthrie
Ac1d0v3r1d3 is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 07:39 AM   #44
tsavo
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2005
Posts: 103
Get to the fuse box and kill all the lights and put on your night vision
tsavo is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 07:42 AM   #45
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Quote:
Honestly in that scenario, I would try to take cover and not be seen. If at all possible, I wait till they are in another area, and make for the stairs. Wake up the wife, grab the kids as silently as possible, and put them all in the master bedroom, wife with cellphone and pump 12 gauge, lock the door behind me, and take cover near the top of the stairs. First unlucky bastard whos head comes level with the top of those stairs is as dead as I can make him.
I believe DT has a good handle on things.

However, I would not know whether my family upstairs was still alive.

Given the difficulty in getting upstairs undetected, and that in my state such an invasion would constitute a deadly threat, I might simply seek a location advantage where I could ambush them both from cover and do so.

Remember those four 12 gauges I stashed around the house? Here's the reason.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 10:23 AM   #46
roy reali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 3,248
Alternative Ending

In some of the above scenarios, if things go wrong, you could always hit the "reset" button and try again.

Also, how do you all get your adrenaline under such control in a stressful life and death situation. I mean being able to make a controlled head shot and all. Do you pracise Zen Buddahism(sp?)? A flushing rabbit ususally gets me going. I wonder what a jumping intruder would do.
roy reali is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 10:24 AM   #47
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
XB wrote:

Quote:
Given the difficulty in getting upstairs undetected, and that in my state such an invasion would constitute a deadly threat, I might simply seek a location advantage where I could ambush them both from cover and do so.
While taking cover until I could get upstairs, if the opportunity presented itself, I believe I would try to neutralize the threat. However, top priority in my mind is to get up those stairs before they do if at all possible and get the family to secure location, and LEO on the phone. Let 'em rob me blind downstairs, who cares. I got full replacement value insurance.

Now if the worst has happened and BG's got to family first, well, nothing would stop me from taking out the BG's. Even if I had to blow up the entire house to do it. Nothing left to lose at that point....
Derius_T is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 10:35 AM   #48
roy reali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 3,248
Gunsmoke

When I was a kid, Gunsmoke was my favorite show. Matt Dillon was great, espically when he would shoot the gun out of the BG's hand. Maybe some of you should think of that tactic.
roy reali is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 10:48 AM   #49
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Quote:
However, top priority in my mind is to get up those stairs before they do if at all possible and get the family to secure location, and LEO on the phone. Let 'em rob me blind downstairs, who cares. I got full replacement value insurance.
Agreed DT. I'm not questioning you, family is top priority. I'm just considering the difficulty of negotiating a bunch of creaky stairs in a quiet house with my back to the BGs. You are no good to the wife and kiddos with your cerebrum splattered on the wall.

If going upstairs must be done before clearing the bottom floor, I think the best way would be to stay on the side of the steps.......less creaking, and slowly back up the stairs. The danger, of course, is falling on your butt and alerting the BGs, or being seen because you are taking to much time. If you run up the stairs, or make any noise at all, you had better be ready to establish a kill zone in the stairway as soon as you get to the top, with your family awake and wondering what daddy is doing. Your back would be to your family, and their noggins in the line of fire. That's why I would consider this a very risky endeavor and would likely elect to check on the family when the threat is eliminated. That does not mean they are not top priority.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old September 28, 2005, 10:56 AM   #50
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,103
Don't poop in my Cocoa Puffs.

My perspective is that this is a very bad thing and I'm not impressed by overly optimisitc predictions of success and chest pounding.

I've done a fair amount of FOF, in similar scenarios - one thing I take away is:

1. You can miss at close distances
2. Your shoots can be in nonfatal or disabling places.
3. From lectures (from gun friendly military emergency surgeons) - you cannot count on COM or head shots to disable someone.
4. When the gunfire starts in close range FOF - everyone has a very high probability of getting shot.

In this scenario:

1. You must determine if these are a real threat. There is a real possibility of shooting an innocent. It might be unreasonable given the scenario but it does happen.

2. When you start shooting, you must have the realization that you might miss and/or your shots will not be incapacitating and thus you will take return fire. For all, you know when you shoot the first guy, the second bolts up the stairs.

3. Also, they may shoot you.

4. Legalisms - if you truly saw two armed men in your house, this is a lethal threat by the standard of protecting your family. Deal with the law later. However, know how to respond to the law and have an attorney who knows the issues of self defense.

You'd better think about finishing off the wounded or planting guns. That will be easily detectable and you are sunk. If you said this stuff here just to chestpounding, well goody for you - it's stupid.

5. Tactics:

a. Do nothing but observe - this may lead to action later. The key is movement up the stairs.

b. Try to get up the stairs - that's a good plan if you can pull it off. Do you know that no one is up there already?

c. Challenge in some fashion - yell that you already called the law even if you didn't. Do you have an alarm that you can trigger to make noise. Can you get a good cover position (not just concealment) and challenge them, telling them to get out and you have guns.

Or do the Ninja - sometimes rapid aggression works.

d. Ambush them - as said before that might work but be prepared to follow up in a tactically sound manner. If they are down - the best thing might be to get to your family and hunker down.

There is no set answer but glib, tough answers are baloney. It's a bad situation. In FOF (granted not the real thing but pretty high end excercises), I've killed an entire team, killed two and been killed - shot one as I theoretically died. And I was just shot to pieces - it's an interesting lesson - with sims, paint balls and airsoft - you get interesting bruises, your skin is broken and you hurt - even with protection.

Even high end operators and trainers were sometimes just flat out 'killed'.

So challenge them like a ninja, make that head shot and then plant guns in their hands. Make sure you kill the wounded that are begging you for their life in a manner that forensics will determine was suspect. That's a good plan.

Damn Cocoa Puffs taste funny!
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13220 seconds with 8 queries