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Old September 24, 2005, 03:14 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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Say I catch a perpetrator.....

Okay, I carry 4 inch .38 revovler with a hammer typically.

Suppose I catch a perpetrator breaking into my house, car, robbing my neighbor or friend, holding me or them up with a gun or knife etc. and I pull my gun and tell him to put his hands over his head, kneel down, cross legs or spread his hands on the car, or whatever to get him under control.
How do I approach him to search him?

Do I walk up and start going over him with the gun uncocked?
Do I cock the gun and walk up with my thumb over the trigger?
Do I cock the gun and hold the trigger down keeping my thumb over the hammer holding it down?

If I do the first, if he were to grab for my gun and get his hands on it, then I might not be able to fire because his hands might be holding the cylinder in place.

If I do either of the latter two, all I need do is let go of the hammer with my thumb and the "gun struggle" is over.

on the other hand, some ACLU or NAACP thug might file suit against me for killing or endangering the life of this wonderful upstanding member of the community

OR should I hold him at gunpoint until the police get there. (on the other hand, what if there are say 4 or 5 perpetrators, I need to be careful watching everthing all of them are doing if I don't search them. But I guess that's okay, as long as I can see their hands)
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Old September 24, 2005, 03:35 PM   #2
FireBreather01
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Do not approach or search him! Wait until help arrives - as in the police. Bad guys, especially those that have done time, practice disarming cops all the time. Many hardened criminals have little fear of joe-regular, and if you got one that's drugged up besides, you're just asking for trouble by trying to lay hands on him.
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Old September 24, 2005, 03:39 PM   #3
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Many criminals choose to run instead of bein subdued by trained police. What makes you think such an individual will follow your directions? If you are not trained to arrest someone, then what you see on TV may not be the best training aid to follow.

If you are such a situation and there is fear of loss of limb or life whether by you or some third party, then shoot. You do have a right to selfdefence.

Trying to detain someone at gun point might be problematic to you in public. What if John Doe, a CCW legal guy sees you threatening somebody else? Does he have a right to shoot? He may shoot you and your perp might go free.

I hope you dont think that all bad guys are non white. If it is a justified case, I dont see why the ACLU or NAACP would get involved.

Stay safe.
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Old September 24, 2005, 04:12 PM   #4
sendec
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Don't approach.

Under no circumstances approach with a gun drawn, it is asking for a take-away.

Under absolutely positively no circumstances ever approach with a cocked revolver, it is begging for a negligent discharge.

There are few if any valid reasons for fighting in single-action with a revolver. You'll train in DA, use it in DA.

Unless you carry cuffs, you cannot do a proper search anyway. Leave it to the cops who will cuff first, then search.
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Old September 24, 2005, 04:22 PM   #5
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I fifth the do not approach advise.

Also, don't cock the revolver (unless it's an SA but still). You will be "pumped up" and this is not a good thing if you have a cocked revolver with a now 2lb trigger pointed at the BG.

Also, once the police get there, you will either have to decock it or the police (who probably don't know anything about revolvers or any other auto besides the one that they carry) will try to do it.

Too many things can go wrong with a cocked revolver, being "pumped up" and an LEO that may not know about revolvers.

Wayne
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Old September 24, 2005, 04:50 PM   #6
Ozzieman
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I have had this happen to me once

It was a stollen car taken from my neighbors driveway.
When I stoped the thief at gun poing, getting into the car he all but craped his pants and it was enough for him to see the gun ( not very likly to happen with a hardened criminal).
My neighbors son asked me later that night "what would you have done if he had run or got away and got back in the car and drove away?"
My answer was "would have waved goodby."
They diddnt like the answer but you cant shoot some one that is not threating your life.
Had he pulled a gun, then that would have been a different story.
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Old September 24, 2005, 05:42 PM   #7
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Hold him/them at gunpoint and then call in the cavalry. It's the police's job to search and arrest the BG, not yours. Let the police get close and do the search. If the BG is going to get nasty at close quarters, better it be the guys who get paid for it than yourself.
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Old September 24, 2005, 06:24 PM   #8
Harley Quinn
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Yep, good advise

I would say all the advise is good.
Have him lay on the ground spread eagled face down. Wait for the police.

Oh sir, I am so cold or oh mister, I made a mistake please sir.

Don't listen to it, keep him there.
I would shoot a round into the ground before I would approach.
That will get his attention and the police answering the call.

I had a similar occurrence (burglary of a school) and when they got there
(sheriff).
They found 8 guns in the car.

I stopped them before they could get into their car and had them lay on the ground. Please mister it is cold we are just 16, we didn't mean it. Blah blah. I had a 12 gauge with 00 in the snout and they heard me rack it in. One guy had a gun on him (not loaded).

I was really surprised when I saw the guns, Sheriff called me over after they had them in the car and said, look at this.
I was glad of my perseverance to keep them on the ground, Yea it was cold I was in bare feet and shortsleeve shirt.

Harley
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Old September 24, 2005, 06:48 PM   #9
Doug.38PR
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y'all are probably right. I was always kinda leaning towards NOT approaching them and doing something like the last poster said, and that is getting them in a position where I could see all their limbs and holding them at gunpoint until the police arrived.
Besides, I wouldn't do a thorough enough search anyway. There are too many places they could hide weapons that I wouldn't know to look or even want to look if I did know.

Also, somebody mentioned that I can't shoot if they are stealing my car. Texas law says that you can use deadly force to not only protect your body but also your property and the property of your neighbors. Now some ACLU or NAACP or some other slick pack of trial attorneys will likely and have contest that, but I'll have it before a jury before I would fear them.

Also, as far as cocking the revolver, I would only do that if I HAD to approach the criminal, and I would secure my thumb over the hammar and my index finger away from the trigger. But as I said, I would not approach the criminal just position them where I could see their movements and wait for the police.
As far as any LEO decocking my revolver, I have always said that I would not only decock it as I saw the police car pulling up, but holster it and hold my hands in front of me so they could see that I mean't no harm towards them and saw that I had no gun in hand. They would be more able to focus on the true criminals than me and hold on to my gun if they needed to without having to approach me with so much caution
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Old September 24, 2005, 07:58 PM   #10
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Take a lesson from those who do this a lot... When the police do show up to take charge of the badguy in such a situation they don't come alone and one of them will cover said BG while the other cuffs him. They don't do it alone with experience and trainning behind them - why should you or I?

Handcuffs are a good thing to have on hand, but I think tossing them to the BG and directing him to pet 'em on is as much as one guy should do until help arrives. And then ya gotta worry about whether you just handed him a weapon and what to do if he refuses... etc. etc. etc....
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Old September 24, 2005, 09:01 PM   #11
JohnKSa
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Quote:
How do I approach him to search him?
DON'T! Don't even think about it!
Quote:
Texas law says that you can use deadly force to not only protect your body but also your property and the property of your neighbors.
It's not anywhere nearly that simply stated, and that law gives you zero protection against civil suits as a result of your actions. You are almost always going to be much, MUCH, better off NOT shooting someone unless life/limb are in danger. What good is it for you to shoot someone to keep them from leaving with your VCR or car if their family sues you and gets everything you own...
Quote:
Also, as far as cocking the revolver, I would only do that if I HAD to approach the criminal
Do NOT approach the criminal. You do not have to and you shouldn't even consider it. DO NOT APPROACH THE CRIMINAL!

I recommend that you do not cock your revolver. Ever had an adrenalin rush? Remember the shaking after it starts to wear off? That's the condition you'll be in while you're trying to uncock your loaded revolver. That is exactly the reason that DAO revolvers came into use for LEOs.

Don't cock the gun, don't approach the criminal.

You are NOT a policeman. You are not a law enforcement officer. Your job is to protect your life and that of others. That job does not including searching or really even apprehending criminals.
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Old September 24, 2005, 09:25 PM   #12
tsavo
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Why would you draw your gun on a person that is trying to steal your neighbors car? You realize that you aren't allowed to use deadly force to protect property don't you? Really a bad idea, you're not a cop-you're a civilian.
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Old September 24, 2005, 09:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
You realize that you aren't allowed to use deadly force to protect property don't you?
That is not correct, as you would have known if you had read the thread. In TX, it CAN be legal to use deadly force to protect property in limited circumstances. However, it IS a sticky wicket, and gets stickier if you act on someone else's behalf.

Your point about the difference between and LEO and non-LEO is pertinent. A non-LEO's primary focus should be on protecting life (primarily his own) while an LEO's job is summed up in the acronym--Law Enforcement Officer.
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:08 PM   #14
Doug.38PR
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Quote:
It's not anywhere nearly that simply stated, and that law gives you zero protection against civil suits as a result of your actions. You are almost always going to be much, MUCH, better off NOT shooting someone unless life/limb are in danger. What good is it for you to shoot someone to keep them from leaving with your VCR or car if their family sues you and gets everything you own...
Well, I'd worry about that bridge when I crossed it...maybe. But you can't just let some thug walk or drive away with your own property. Shoot him in the leg if you have to.

They have to convince a jury that their scumbag relative shouldn't have been shot for commencing with a crime.
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:20 PM   #15
aspen1964
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..which is where our laws are unjust... if I had the power to change the law..then a robber who is breaking into your car or house, you should have a right to point a weapon on him and if he resists be able to blow his brains out....but our laws often side with evil....which is why innocent people often lose to the justice system...HELL is chock full of lawyers..
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:29 PM   #16
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But you can't just let some thug walk or drive away with your own property. Shoot him in the leg if you have to.
This should have been covered in your CHL course. You are never justified in shooting at a person with the express intent to wound. Shooting is deadly force, and you should never use deadly force if the situation doesn't legally and morally warrant killing the person.

As far as shooting to protect property, the law is quite complicated and the hoops that must be jumped through in order to make sure it is legal are numerous and not perfectly clear. I didn't mean to imply that getting civilly sued is your worst danger, there is a real danger of going to jail. The law is even MORE complicated if you're talking about defending someone else's property and that means even MORE danger of going to jail.
Quote:
you can't just let some thug walk or drive away with your own property
You CERTAINLY can. It may not be easy, but it's probably always the smartest choice--and usually the only legal choice.

aspen,

Breaking into a car is very different from breaking into a house. Breaking into a person's house is often (depending on the laws of the area) sufficient grounds for the house's owner/occupant to use deadly force. Breaking into a car is a very different story.
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:44 PM   #17
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..in the old days you could be hung for horse-stealing...isn't the car the modern equivalent of the horse?
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Old September 24, 2005, 10:53 PM   #18
tsavo
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If you're willing to gamble with 15 years in prison for protecting your neighbors honda accord then be my guest. That is a bad call, all around. Ask any LEO and he will say the same thing. Call the police and stay out of the situation.

You don't have authority to use deadly force to protect someone from taking your neighbors car in their driveway, that goes for all 50 states.
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Old September 24, 2005, 11:12 PM   #19
aspen1964
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..like I said...the laws give more to the perpetrators of a crime rather than the victims of a crime...scales are off-balance...potential victims must be careful what to do....criminals do what they can get away with..and the law often doesn't have CLUE what to do...
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Old September 25, 2005, 01:26 AM   #20
Doug.38PR
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You CERTAINLY can. It may not be easy, but it's probably always the smartest choice--and usually the only legal choice.
sheesh, that's just legal (?) BS. I don't mean that as an attack on you personally, but that is downright absurd despite what some lawyer or DA might say with all his courtroom double talk.
I'm saying the common sense thing to do is to stop the scumbag and protect you and others from the scumbag's intent. End of story. (or at least it should be)
Yes, this was covered in my CHL course. We were told not to worry about our car, lawn mower or anything else but our personal life.

Quote:
If you're willing to gamble with 15 years in prison for protecting your neighbors honda accord then be my guest. That is a bad call, all around. Ask any LEO and he will say the same thing. Call the police and stay out of the situation.
For this to work realistically, then I wouldn't need a gun and a policeman would have to be with me and everyone else and each article of their property (House, car, etc.) 24/7. Obviously this is not possible, so in this regard (in the real world) we are all policeman in that we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and those of our community when the need arises and a LEO is not around in whatever way we can.

Yes I know, it is not about what you all think or I think, it's about what the courtroom clowns will do.

The fact that these kind of discussions even come up are what in many cases make the courts even worse than the criminals they are supposed to prosecute and send away
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Old September 25, 2005, 02:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
You don't have authority to use deadly force to protect someone from taking your neighbors car in their driveway, that goes for all 50 states.
I mostly agree with this post, but it's not quite this simple.

In Colorado, you do not have the right to use deadly force to protect property, but you do have the right to use physical force. And you always have the right to confront a criminal.

i.e. ...

Guy breaking into my neighbors car. If I think I can take him, I'm perfectly within my rights to tackle his butt to the ground and hold him in a headlock until the police arrive. Tackling somebody and holding them in a headlock is physical force, not deadly force. Police give me a slap on the back and take the guy in.

If the guy is too big to tackle, I have every right to come up near him and yell at him that I'm calling the cops. In this latter situation ... I have been told by a lawyer that if I am carrying a weapon, it would be considered prudent and NOT brandishing to have that weapon unholstered. The lawyer even said I could point it at the BG, even though I have no right to fire, though I doubt I'd do that myself.

If the BG responds to me with agressive force that I believe to be life endangering I have as much right to fire as if he had attacked me out of the blue.

I doubt I would confront someone breaking into a car unless I seriously thought I could hold them in place physically, but I would consider doing something like blocking the car in with mine, etc. And the fact that I have a weapon concealed on my person just gives me an option the BG doesn't know about.
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Old September 25, 2005, 03:12 AM   #22
sinister1811
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I've been in LE for 14 years and I say NEVER< NEVER< NEVER cock a revolver. It's not necessary. It will only cause you problems. First of all your adreneline is pumping and it only take a light tap to set that thing off. I'm sure you have enough power in your finger to pull the trigger if need be, so there is no reason for cocking it. Second, NEVER approach the BG. Protecting property is not worth dying for. Be a good witness instead. The only time you should pull a gun is to protect your life or the life of someone else, thats it, property is not worth getting into a gun battle over.

Also, NEVER approach anyone. Even if you think you are bigger and badder or think you can take them. I've seen several small guys, and I'm 6'6 260, kick some ass because they are all drugged up or they don't want to go to jail. Also, you can't see what someone may have hidden on his person, and when he wipps oit that knife your in big trouble even if he is much smaller. Call us a we will come in force. Just remember personal property, ie car, T.V, etc. is not worth it, don't approach anyone, call 911. But if your life is in danger or someone elses do what you have to to stay alive and deal with whatever comes later.

Also remember that even if the BG doesnt have a gun and you do, there is a chance he can take yours. Its happened before to the best of them.
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Old September 25, 2005, 04:00 AM   #23
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Doug, more direct question, why did you draw and not shoot immediatly? Guns are not for intimidation. If someone breaks into your home/attacks you with gun or knife, and you get a chance to draw, don't talk to the scum, just shoot him dead.

My weapon stays in the holster until needed. When needed, the only way it isn't firing is if they turn tail and run in the time it takes me to reach/draw/aim.

Then again, if I see someone jacking my neighbors car, I won't be running off playing cop either. Guns are not toys. You are not a cop.
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Old September 25, 2005, 06:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
How do I approach him to search him?
You don't. Get him spread-eagle on the ground and leave him there, covered, until the cops show up.

Safely searching someone is something that takes a bit of training and regular practice, and is best done when you have a buddy to cover the BG while you search. Let the cops do it.

As for more than one BG, put them all in a row spread eagle, use two rows if there's more than four. If there's more than 12 (three rows) you're in the wrong part of town, SGT York.

It is possible to imagine a scenario where a verbal warning could be appropriate, after which the BG might surrender... for example a hostage situation where you might be talking while trying to get the shot, but the BG decides to drop his weapon before you get it lined up.
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Old September 25, 2005, 07:42 AM   #25
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jeez

When I read a question like this, I first ask the questioner to give his own, preliminary answer. Similarly, this applies to all of us. If a person doesn't make the effort, then he is not helping himelf in his problem solving capabilities.

How many responders have said not to approach? Obviously, there is a reason not to approach.

Another option is to instruct the BG to drop his pants to his ankles. I don't mean for sex. Figure it out why.

In the real world things happen very quickly and snap decisions are made. Academic questions like:

1. 9mm vs. .45acp;
2. Glock vs. .45 colt;
3. when can I shoot someone in my house;
4. when do I get invovled and when do I walk away;
5. how many pounds of bugout gear can I carry in New York City
don't matter very much and are time wasters.

You all read about don't take a pistol to a rifle fight. I will go beyond it. Get your s--t together. Make the effort to keep aware of your surroundings. Have an attitude and program for improving your physical health, shooting fundmentals and human communication skills.

Now for the big answer.

When you are at a distance and pointing a firearm at someone under your control, you have maxed your safety. If you move in, you give up your advantage. If you can't understand that fundamental, you are in trouble in your life.

It is up to you to use your noodle and figure out how you confirm that a person is really unarmed. Hint: If a person is within grappling distance, he is not unarmed. And, you had better start thinking about that on a daily basis.

Dumb example. Black and whites. Traffic stop. 5 suspected drug dealers. I stay in the black and white, armed. Two cops with shotguns have the drop on the suspected BGs (Columbians who run a stop sign near the airport are clearly international drug dealers to people who watch too much tv). One idiot runs up to a BG and has the shotgun pointed at the guy's neck from about 4 feet away! Really dumb move. What happened to the advantage of having a gun displayed at the purported BG and distance? And this guy was supposedly trained too!
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