The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 28, 2005, 05:12 PM   #126
John28226
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 292
You said it best!

Tucker, I applaud your logic and your ability to put into words thoughts that make sense. I think the original question had something to do with taking a gun with you into the shower. Seems the answer is some do and some don't. After that I got a little confused. What difference does it make to anyone else when and where I or anyone else choose to have a gun? As long as we are not breaking a law, why should anyone else make remarks about our mental health? In short, who cares?

Anyone who thinks that "when you go you go" and lets that concept rule their lives should take a job painting the line down the middle of the Interstate - during rush hour!

History tells us that you can indeed delay your meeting of our Creator.

When Richard Speck was asked about his murder of eight nurses in their apartment his answer was, "It just was not their day". (and yes, that is a quote - read the case if you doubt it).

When I carry and where I carry is a calculated decision to attempt to extend my life. I may go, but I don't plan to go easily.

John
Charlotte, NC
John28226 is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 05:46 PM   #127
zzirg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 184
I personally think a gun in the shower is a bit on the carried away side,making sure your doors are locked,windows are locked are normal security measures unless you actually are expecting an intruder like an angry neighbor or something.The next thing you know people will be saying thats not my ^&*# THATS MY GUN BARREL, while in bed making whoopie. My thoughts are that many imaginations are hyped by the gun stories they hear ,thats not to say that there all fake.I have had 2 gun incidance's myself....just my thoughts on the subject. That doesn't mean to say that i think your all paranoid.You have to put things in there right perspective however ,someone in a small town setting has a smaller percentage of an attack by someone then somebody who lives in a larger city.Now if i lived in downtown L.A ,DETROIT,CHICAGO,BOSTON or somewhere like that i might be joining you with the idea of a gun in the shower.
zzirg is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:03 PM   #128
Eightball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2005
Location: On my Computer
Posts: 289
Gun in the shower? Paranoid
Gun on the bathroom counter, next to the shower? Not paranoid.

My question isn't "am I paranoid to take it in the shower", my question is---where would you put it in the shower?
__________________
Own (among others): S&W 620
RRA 16" Middy AR15
M1 Garand, July '42
M1 Carbine, Inland '43
Eightball is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:08 PM   #129
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
When Richard Speck was asked about his murder of eight nurses in their apartment his answer was, "It just was not their day". (and yes, that is a quote - read the case if you doubt it).
From Schopenauer to Richard Speck

WildthegreatphilosophersAlaska
Wildalaska is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:21 PM   #130
Dead-Nuts-Zero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 2004
Posts: 498
I looked in on this post when it was just getting started and I often drop back to see what others are saying. However, I have not read every post, but as I read a few today, I started thinking back to the days when I first started out with a hand gun. I was brought up on guns and hunting and the country life was so much different than the big city. When I was starting to CCW, I had to strap that 6 gun on everytime I went to the city (or to the gas station just down the road) to have dinner or do some mall shopping with the girlfriend etc. I was new at CCW and it was new to me and maybe a little overwhelming. I remember it was kinda kool because I had a gun and nobody but me knew about it. I felt almost invincible when I was packin thoes first few years.

Now that I have several years of CCW and many trips going into the big city, I seldom think of packin my gun these days. I guess the point I am trying to make is that I think we all go through a period where we are over confident (not sure that's the right word for my thoughts but lets go with it for now) and we think it's really kool to pack and believe we are invincible. It does wear off after awhile with many of us. Then there are plenty of us who just never get over it. I can't really say one way is any better than the other. Everyone has to do whatever they are comfortable with.
I find the many post interesting. If your a city guy you may have better reason to CCW than us country bumpkins. And if yr from the woods, you feel better with CCW when you go to the city. If yr in the shower, you do what ever you think you need to do. We all decide for ourselves. No one is really right or wrong IMO, it whatever blows yr skirt up that counts. I got over it and most of us will too in time.
__________________
.
.
BANG------------ >>> !
Dead-Nuts-Zero is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:22 PM   #131
tuckerdog1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 258
To each their own

Zzirg, your correct, everybody's situation varies, and as long as they're comfortable with that situation, okay. Hope it works out for them.
I have some very good friends down the street. They've lived in this neighborhood 24 years. They don't, like or own guns. Their choice, and I don't push my pro gun views on them. They have never, and still don't, lock their doors. Even when they leave on a vacation, doors unlocked. And this is one of the nicer homes in the neighborhood. 4000+ sq ft, 1.5 acre lot, pool. Screams " NICE STUFF IN HERE!" I usually take care of their pets & plants when they take trips. It creeps me out everytime, when I 1st go down there to feed & water and the door just opens. I alway lock the place up when I'm caring for it. Their comfort level is a LOT more lax than mine.

Tuckerdog1
__________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats. - Henry Louis Mencken
tuckerdog1 is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:29 PM   #132
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildalaska
I wonder...

You can arm yourslef to the teeth, spend your whole life looking over your shoulder, carry nine guns and wear body armor, alarm your house, spend thousands of dollars on tactical schools...

And when the big guy calls your number...

Your going.....nothing is gonna stop it.

And think of all you missed.

I think there is a lot of fallacy to this "your number is up when your number is up" philosophy.

For one thing, if you are saying that nothing we do to protect ourselves from harm can do anything to save us if "our number is up" on a given day at a given activity, then is the converse true, that we can cross streets without looking, pack our parachutes carelessly, eat food past its expiration date, all because "fate" plans that we will die in a boating accident on some specific day?

If someone is too busy dialing his cellular phone as he crosses the street, and he gets hit by a bus, are you saying that he was fated to get hit by that bus, or maybe even fated to dial the cellular phone at that moment so that he would get hit by that bus?... I just don't get it.

But mainly I think that if you believe that every death is predestined, that should mean that everything else can't kill you. Of course, if you don't have some way of knowing what exactly will be the thing that will kill you, you might just try to be careful and safe at everything. Then, when you finally lapse in your cautiousness, at some given activity, and you die, you kind of "fated" yourself to die at that.

The whole notion of fate is hogwash to me, though.

Here's another quote about it, Pax. It's by the rock group Rush:

"Fate is just the weight of circumstances."

Meaning, fate is nothing more than the sum accumulation of actual working factors. If a pulley on a crane is worn, and some guy who was supposed to inspect it was working off a hangover and missed the damage, and then I happen to have to drive by the spot where the crane is because a car accident on my normal route blocks off the road, and the pulley breaks and the crane's load falls from the cable and smooshes me, you could say that was "fate," but it really comes down to the fact that the surrounding factors led to me being in the so-called "wrong place at the wrong time."

If a person dies in a house fire because he never got himself a smoke detector, does it mean that he was "fated" to die that way?

Was he not supposed to even bother to attempt to interfere in "fate" by getting one?

What about the same guy, in an alternate reality, who did install a smoke detector, and the same fire doesn't kill him? Was he meddling? Does the fact that he staved off death by fire mean that he overrode fate, or just that there is no fate but what we make (to coin a phrase)?


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:43 PM   #133
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by dead-nuts-zero
Now that I have several years of CCW and many trips going into the big city, I seldom think of packin my gun these days. I guess the point I am trying to make is that I think we all go through a period where we are over confident (not sure that's the right word for my thoughts but lets go with it for now) and we think it's really kool to pack and believe we are invincible. It does wear off after awhile with many of us. Then there are plenty of us who just never get over it. I can't really say one way is any better than the other. Everyone has to do whatever they are comfortable with.

I don't carry a gun because I am over-confident, or think I am invincible. The exact opposite of the latter part: I know I am not invincible. The gun is a tool to help me be the equal (or better) than someone who may confront me with criminal harm in mind. Like many people, I keep my humility about me; I don't go into "trouble spots" and I avoid them deliberately, because I know my gun does not make me bullet-proof, and it is not an excuse to force myself into a situation where I have to use it.

Contrary to what you say, it hasn't "worn off" me after 12 years of carrying. Now, carrying is a matter of course, and I would be likely to feel "naked" without a gun (like I do when on vacation where I can't bring the gun). It's an uncomfortable feeling of exposure, to realize that the gun you carry daily because it may come into play to save your life is not available to you. You suddenly have to think about what else you would have to do if a criminal attacked. Suddenly you are not quite the guy who could stand and fight; now you have to think about escape, appeasement of the aggressor, etc., and you are very much at a disadvantage because one of your major means of making things come out your way is gone.

You simply have fewer options to pick from to get out of a bad situation if you have disavailed yourself of a gun.

-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 06:53 PM   #134
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
The whole notion of fate is hogwash to me, though.
What a bummer.... you were actually thinking before you made that statement. On the other hand, your comment ;

"Meaning, fate is nothing more than the sum accumulation of actual working factors" is almost correct, add the word "random" where it belongs. Your own example of the drive by crane crash demonstrates this

If you are more interested in the bases of my post, study up on Chaos theory and The Theory of Randomness. a little exploration about Evolutionary Biology and paleantology together with a good dose of Hawking and Aleatory Theory will liven it up.

WilditsallplayAlaska
Wildalaska is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 07:16 PM   #135
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,159
whatever you had for lunch today, were NOT having it tomorrow!!!

i'll bring you a nice crispy creamy arteryclogging donut to set your day off right tomorrow. enough of this vegan diet you've been on!

fate - we will all die deaths more horrible than we wished for.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 07:17 PM   #136
BigFunWMU
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2005
Posts: 304
prudent, not paranoid

A friend of the family was in the shower and thought he heard a noise in the house. He had his (brought home from Korea) 1911 on the counter by the sink, so he put on a towel picked it up and went to go see who was out there.

He found a guy in his late 20's poking around his bedroom.

In that condo community in Florida, the exterminators come around once every 3 months or so, just to keep the buggies out. They are supposed to knock and make sure anyone in the condo knows they are there, and if anyone is home, they must get permission to enter. He had his front door locked, and never heard a knock, announcement or anything. He did hear someone open his bedroom door and start walking around.

Yes the guy used to have a key (he had it taken away at gunpoint shortly after he was discovered in there), and the talk with his supervisor went something like: "That punk kid you got workin for you just about got his dumb a$$ shot. I took my key back, and if you have any other copies, give them back now. I can kill ants just fine on my own"

Paranoid? no
Prudent? perhaps

Whats the point of having a gun for defence if its not with you?

Ben
BigFunWMU is offline  
Old October 28, 2005, 07:19 PM   #137
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,214
Quote:
when the big guy calls your number...

Your going.....nothing is gonna stop it.
There's no arguing this, but it is worth qualifying.

Some take this to the extreme--they don't lock their doors at night nor look both ways when crossing the street because: "When it's your time you'll go."

Others go to the other extreme and think that they can "stay up past their bedtime" if they take all the right precautions.

Both are wrong.

Look both ways when crossing the street. Take reasonable precautions against crime, against fire, against injury in auto accidents. Because while you may not be able to extend your life, you can surely shorten it!

Don't let fear keep you from crossing the street. Don't let reasonable precautions turn into obsessions. Because not everything is under your control, and trying to make it so will make you crazy.

But most of all (and this is what this thread was supposed to be about) be aware of what goes on in the world and of its possible impact on your life. Because until you realize the possibilities, it's impossible to determine what a "reasonable precaution" really is.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old November 2, 2005, 01:35 PM   #138
johnnymenudo
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2001
Posts: 30
Quote:
Um, home invasions occur even in very exclusive neighborhoods, so your claim that anyone who feels the need to have a gun in the bathroom should move to where it's "safe" falls very flat. There is no place in the world where a criminal can't bring his attack. Every place is safe until a criminal attacks someone there.
I never said anything about exclusive neighborhoods, so don't put words in my mouth. Anyone can be a victim of crime, but if your house is insecure or if you live in a high crime area, you are more likely to be a victim than someone who has good locks, solid doors, and a secure home design. Sure you can get robbed anywhere but statistically speaking some places are safer than others. If you want to spend every minute of your life clutching your firearm and looking over your shoulder, have at it. I would prefer to be live my life with a healthy sense of caution and preparedness, but not be a slave to fear.

JM
johnnymenudo is offline  
Old November 2, 2005, 07:02 PM   #139
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
If it's so easy to just yank yourself and/or your family right out of the low-income, high-crime areas right into the bucolic suburbs where crime is near zero, I guess I just can't figure out why everyone living in the inner cities hasn't done it already!


Maybe it's not as simple as "moving to a better area." Maybe that takes more money and resources than some people have. So IF they are "stuck" there -- even if just for a time -- they should not keep a gun near them in the home because it's "paranoid"?


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old November 2, 2005, 07:52 PM   #140
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,905
Six pages -- and most posters' argument boils down to, "If you don't do it MY way, you're a fool."

Sad.

pax

Most people can't understand how others can blow their noses differently than they do. -- Ivan Turgenev
pax is offline  
Old November 2, 2005, 08:23 PM   #141
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
It's called "the Human Condition," Pax. Ain't never gonna change.

People are built this way. They are not the same, so they are bound to think differently about various subjects. Difference easily spawn misunderstanding, distrust, disagreement, dislike...

How long can you stay sad about it? You have to observe that it's been this way for umpteen thousands of years! WE'RE supposed to be the generation that will put it to rest? I'll bet every generation since the world began felt that way. It's utterly unrealistic.

What many of us DO hope to do, though, is change those minds that we feel are looking at a subject with a faulty filter; those minds that are not being logical or rational about subjects that call for those traits.

If I have a vaccine for diptheria, and I bring it to some backward African nation, and the "leaders" of the tribe I bring it to tell their followers that I am a demon and the vaccine will hurt them, we have a disagreement. Based on fact or opinion, who can say? But ONLY ONE OF US IS RIGHT and telling the objective truth. As the one who really can claim the truth is on his side, I would feel justified if I really hammered on about my views on the subject -- even to the point of possibly ridiculing the notion that I'm a demon.



-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old November 3, 2005, 01:28 AM   #142
johnnymenudo
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2001
Posts: 30
Quote:
If it's so easy to just yank yourself and/or your family right out of the low-income, high-crime areas right into the bucolic suburbs where crime is near zero, I guess I just can't figure out why everyone living in the inner cities hasn't done it already!


Maybe it's not as simple as "moving to a better area." Maybe that takes more money and resources than some people have. So IF they are "stuck" there -- even if just for a time -- they should not keep a gun near them in the home because it's "paranoid"?
I am not sure if you are referring to my post but never once did I say anything about suburbs vs inner city vs. X. If so, your reply is trying to minimize the validity of my points by fabricating scenarios that I have not even inferred. It never once said that inner city dwellers should move to bucolic suburbs. Again I will say this. If you feel that where you live is so dangerous that you have to have a gun in the shower, then you have to ask yourself why am I staying here? I am referring to TFL members since that is who is involved in this discussion. If someone can spend money on guns and internet access and computers, then they should have the resources to get out of the weekly rate motel and into an apartment with a solid core door and some bars on the windows at the very least. Let's say that they have no choice and crime is all around them - then feel free to carry a gun everywhere. I highly doubt however that many of us if any live in that kind of an environment. I think the average person has a better chance of slipping in the shower and getting fatally injured in the fall then they do of having a home invader attack them while showering. Maybe the best choice is just not to shower.

JM
johnnymenudo is offline  
Old November 3, 2005, 02:54 AM   #143
stratus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 5, 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 882
First off, +1 for what blackmind said.

Now for the other thing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymenudo
I think the average person has a better chance of slipping in the shower and getting fatally injured in the fall then they do of having a home invader attack them while showering. Maybe the best choice is just not to shower.
No way would I give up washing. Do I look like an Frenchman to you?
stratus is offline  
Old November 3, 2005, 08:56 AM   #144
Jack Malloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2005
Posts: 791
No place is any safer than any other.
There is no such thing as a safe place, only safe PEOPLE.
There is no such thing as a dangerous place, only dangerous PEOPLE.
People get around.

My next door neighbor is a vietnam vet and an ex police officer. He got robbed this past summer despite the fact that we live SIXTY FEET away from the FRONT DOOR of the police station, in a peaceful little town.
Last winter US Marshalls arrested a seriel killer from Chicago who was living in the next lane.
We have lived there for years with no problems and no crimes. Then BAM!
Crap can happen anywhere, at any time to anybody.
If you are not properly prepared IT CAN happen to you.
Telling yourself that you live in a safe area and you dont have to prepare and you dont have to worry about it is nothing but LYING to YOURSELF and heaven help you when fate steps in and proves you wrong.

I heard a wonderful example of this Bullcrap Thinking this morning on the local radio station. They were talking about some moronic report about workplace safety and noted that many employers prohibit any weapons on the premisis.
Boy, thats smart. If somebody is going to go ahead and KILL a coworker and commit Murder (homicide, which is against the law) does anybody HONESTLY think that such an individual is going to obey a no weapons in the workplace rule?
All that does is ensures to the whackos out there that they will have some defenseless victims to prey upon.
Jack Malloy is offline  
Old November 3, 2005, 11:07 AM   #145
clt46910
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 149
If you think about it, if you wanted to kill someone and didn't care about yourself(think extremely angry or deranged), the best place would be at their work. Very few people will carry at work for fear of lossing their jobs because of such rules. Always in the car or left at home.
__________________
Chuck in Indiana
clt46910 is offline  
Old November 3, 2005, 11:23 AM   #146
PythonGuy
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 456
My thought is I wouldn't do it, but if someone else wants to go right ahead. Its their house and their property, if they feel safer, great. Like Pax was saying, I can't put my ways on anyone , nor do I want to. We all need to get through our lives the best way we can, if this works for some, so be it.
PythonGuy is offline  
Old November 7, 2005, 05:50 AM   #147
seth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2005
Posts: 173
for those of you who leave the pistol in arms reach while showering:

If its a single action weapon like a 1911, are you telling me you have a round chambered and the safety OFF? Or are you giving enough time to grab the gun, rack the slide, then take aim if surprised by a bathroom invader?
seth is offline  
Old November 7, 2005, 02:28 PM   #148
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Seth, you left out the possibility of cocked-and-locked if the gun is a 1911. That means loaded chamber, hammer cocked, safety on. All you need to do is drop the safety, aim and fire. No racking the slide necessary. And, who says that the invader is already in the bathroom? That's one possibility. Others include hearing breaking glass in another room, hearing a door being pounded on, hearing a dog responding to a stranger...

Having the gun there in the bathroom with you is simply prudent, much wiser than leaving it out in the bedroom or wherever it would be "stored" normally when not being used for personal defense. Why force yourself to have to go get it when a threat is already in the process of presenting itself? Because you're embarrassed that a bunch of guys and women on TFL might call you paranoid? For me, so be it. I keep my gun as close when at home as when I go out. No reason not to.


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old November 7, 2005, 02:33 PM   #149
blackmind
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Nuts Zero
If your a city guy you may have better reason to CCW than us country bumpkins.

I always thought that it was at least equally important, since it is well-known that police response in sparsely populated areas can be up to like 1/2 hour away! Who's gonna take care of you for that period of time, if on the crazy-odd chance someone and his buddies take a dislike to you?

What if some meth-lab-running psycho gets some bum information that your house belongs to the dudes who tried to rip him off? And one night he comes calling with a few other guys. You don't have to have done anything wrong for someone to mistakenly start coming after you! So IF they do some day, what can you do if you've left your guard down? I'm not saying to roam your house with your AR-15 slung over your shoulder, a tac-vest on, sidearm in your Fobus holster and an attack German Shepherd on a leash, for cryin' out loud. But if you HAVE a handgun that could save your life from an attack, why not have it NEAR you??


-blackmind
blackmind is offline  
Old November 11, 2005, 02:19 PM   #150
k9lwt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2005
Location:
Posts: 123
I think it's a little paranoid. If you are washing soap off your face, your eyes will be closed for a few seconds and you won't even see the threat.
k9lwt is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18550 seconds with 7 queries