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Old September 24, 2005, 10:28 AM   #1
Velocity226
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Convenience store robbery.

A gun was pulled on the cashier by surprise. He opens the register and offers no resistance. At the end he gets shot.

What tactics are there for this type of situation?

Click here for video.
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Old September 24, 2005, 11:44 AM   #2
steve154
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I guess the only thing this guy could have done is try a grab for the gun. The gunman has it pretty close when he is telling him to open the drawer. Grab the gun and take the shooters finger off as you rip the gun away. Then again the guy is probably hoping that they will just leave. Even if the clerk had seen the guy outside, obviously preparing for no good and then walking in and attempting to hide his face, he would have been SOL unless he had a weapon to draw. I think that convenience stores like this should have a hardened office door right next to the counter so that the clerk has a place to quickly retreat if they sense something is about to go bad. Some situational awareness would have allowed this poor guy a few seconds to do just that. A little S.A., a place to retreat and being armed would have given him a lot better chance than he had.

What in the hell is up with the old lady just calmly walking away while this guy is on the ground taking what sounds like his last breath? That is almost as disturbing as the actual shooting.

Any info on the outcome for the victim?
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Old September 24, 2005, 12:52 PM   #3
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With a scumbag theif like that, you get shot either way. If you resist, you could be shot. If you do not resist at all (in this situation), you still get shot.

After seeing the end result, the guy obviously would have been better off to resist and try to get the weapon from the BG, but no one could have predicted beforehand that he would be shot for cooperating completely.

If I had a gun pressed to my back, I would most likely cooperate but possibly look for an opportunity to disarm the criminal. One video that sticks out in my mind as amusing was when this BG tried to rob a gas station. The cashier was going along with everything, opening up the cash register, and the BG actually got too comfortable with the situation and set his gun down on the counter (IIRC, it was a shotgun). The cashier then reached over quickly and grabbed the barrel and managed to pull it away from the BG and then pointed it at him. BG ran off into the night.
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Old September 24, 2005, 02:22 PM   #4
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This should convince the antis

That the intentions of a criminal will never be known in advance. The "comply" attitude that they preach is no guarantee for a successful outcome. Resistance is the key. The "I will not be a victim" mentality is exactly what is needed to let criminals know thier actions will not be tolerated.

The cashier was distracted. This looked like a reasonably well planned attack although the first guy's face was completly exposed. The actions of the lady are questionable. Maybe she was scared? This clip was done in '93, so cell phones were not as comeon as they are today.
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Old September 24, 2005, 03:14 PM   #5
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There is absolutely nothing you can do...except hope that he doesnt shoot you when the cash is handed over. If you attacked him, his pardner...the first guy who walked in, would probably take you out. The old woman? She might have called the cops, who knows? Anyone know if the cashier made it?
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Old September 24, 2005, 03:21 PM   #6
Doug.38PR
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Maybe put a small gun in the cash register drawer, so when he reaches appearing to get money he can grab the gun and fire.

Was that video real? 1) the sounds he was making after he was shot sounded like some guys fooling around making a home movie (but then I have never seen anyone shot so I don't know what they would sound like or what they would do), 2) the little old lady walking in casually and seeing himover the counter and walking casually out seemed kinda weird. 3) the logo at the end of the clip looked like some camera clowns put it together for their own amusement.
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Old September 24, 2005, 03:28 PM   #7
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I think if there was a gun in the register, the perp would have been too close not to see it. From his location he could have grabed it and the cashier would have been gunless.

If the cashier had a gun he could have faked getting his wallet to add additional cash, retrieved his gun and fired. Even that is problematic, since a gun is already drawn on him. This is a difficult situation to get out of. Any other ideas?
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Old September 24, 2005, 04:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
This should convince the antis
I wouldn't bet your life on that (literally).

Even though we gave leadcounsel heck for wearing amour(sp), I would wear mine if I had to work at the local stop and rob.

Sad that these companies don't allow for self defense. They will see the video, settle the matter out of court with the people left behind (the family) and continue their "just comply and no arms allowed" policy.

What this should do is convince the ones on this board that will always say "follow the law, respect the rules of the owner of the property, and respect the policy at work because of this or that", what's more important, your job and it's policies (or the place you have to go to buy stuff because no one else has it) or your life.

Wayne
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Old September 24, 2005, 08:51 PM   #9
23Skidoo
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It looked a little cooked up to me.
OTOH in my neighborhood one of the stop n' robs there was actually robbed by two guys, one with a .357. The accomplice jumped over the counter and grabbed the money. The gunman shot the clerk anyway (he survived). I believe FBI stats are abot 40% of the time the BG will shoot you no matter what.
That said, in that case there isn't a heck of alot to do when someone is close with a gun drawn on you. Pray hard, I guess.
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Old September 25, 2005, 07:35 AM   #10
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Sorry, wrong thread.
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Old September 25, 2005, 11:05 AM   #11
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Did the clerk live??!! Nothing but a bulet proof box would have helped that situation.
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Old September 25, 2005, 11:32 AM   #12
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This kind of crap makes me sick. I feel sorry for any people who have to work in convenience stores or liquor stores, especially the grave yard shifts. I guess I know why they are called that now. You couldn't pay me enough money to work in that kind of place. Besides, I think they make clsoe to minimum wage. I would rather put on some stupid uniform and flip burgers rather than be a sitting duck. I'm not saying fast food joints don't get robbed. I just don't think crowded restaurants get hit as often as c-stores that only have one or two people working there.

You guys can talk about drawing and shooting first all you want. This guy didn't have a chance as the other thug already had a gun pointed at him. I wouldn't want to go down without a fight, but sometimes you need to find an opportunity to act decisively, rather than acting rashly. Even with 100% situational awareness, you can't pull you gun on every customer that walks in. This was a senseless and tragic shooting. I hope thet caught those scumbags and locked them up with some big hairy men.

The best situation is to not be there in the first place. Isn't that one of the most important rules of self defense? (Not putting yourself in a dangerous situation) Besides, most large c-store chains prohibit carrying weapons. The only way I would take that type of job is if I had a terminal illness and lots of insurance.
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Old September 25, 2005, 11:52 AM   #13
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To once again throw out for consideration, according to FBI stats, something like 12-13% of such events where victims and witnesses (those not being robbed, but present) comply fully still result in the bad guy attempting to hurt or hurting those in compliance, sometimes for no apparent reason. In two videos I have seen where this has happened, the robber actually left the store, apparently had an after thought, and in one case returned to the store (just seconds later) and shot and killed one of the store customers (witness) that was still on the ground. In another, the robber returned seconds later and capped off a couple of rounds at the clerk.

The stupid part is that folks believe and robbers sometimes promise that if they comply, then the robbers won't hurt them. It is like they feel they have a legal and binding negotiated deal where compliance and cash are exchanged for remaining unharmed. The only problem is that the negotiation is at the end of a gun and the victim really has no recourse after complying if the bad guy then shoots him. Besides, why would you trust a bad guy to uphold his end of the deal when you know that he is an untrustworthy person, indicated by the fact that he si robbing you.

Do you fight back or comply? That really depends. If you comply fully, you may end up as just a really easy target to shoot by the bad guy who now has your money. If you fight back, you risk pressing the bad guy's firepower into action against you when maybe he really wasn't interested in shooting you. In other words, if you comply, the bad guy is the master of your destiny. If you fight back, you get to participate in mastering your destiny.
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Old September 25, 2005, 12:03 PM   #14
stephen426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Do you fight back or comply? That really depends. If you comply fully, you may end up as just a really easy target to shoot by the bad guy who now has your money. If you fight back, you risk pressing the bad guy's firepower into action against you when maybe he really wasn't interested in shooting you. In other words, if you comply, the bad guy is the master of your destiny. If you fight back, you get to participate in mastering your destiny.
Double Naught Spy,

I agree with you, but you need to qualify your statement. I don't know how many people are fast enough to draw a weapon from concealment and shoot someone who already has a gun pointed at you. Besides (as far as I could tell from the video), the bad guy was behind a counter and not within gun grab distance. One other thing to consider is the accomplice who may or may not be armed. You have to be prepared by having a weapon available and then create an opportunity to retrieve and use that weapon. From what I saw, no such opportunity presented itself to the clerk. He was flanked and any attempt to grab a gun from his right would have been noticed by the accomplice. Maybe he could have stalled and offered to oopen the other register or go to the safe and open it. Chances are that the gunman would have still followed him with the gun pointed at him.

Like I said in my previous post, just don't put yourself in that situation by working in a c-store during the graveyard shift. Why take all that risk for close to minimum wage?
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Old September 25, 2005, 12:57 PM   #15
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Was that video real? 1) the sounds he was making after he was shot sounded like some guys fooling around making a home movie (but then I have never seen anyone shot so I don't know what they would sound like or what they would do),

The sound was real enough. That's what it sounds like when someone is breathing and the blood is pooling up in their lungs and throat.

Did anyone else notice the last 2 gunshots after they had exited the store? Right before the old lady entered...wonder where they aimed at...maybe the perps groin as he was sticking the gun back in his belt or jumping into his car?
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Old September 25, 2005, 11:37 PM   #16
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Damn it!

That's really hard to watch. That's my reason for being a cop--I live to take down punks like that.
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Old September 25, 2005, 11:42 PM   #17
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DID the guy live? I hate the sound hes making. Id much rather have a quick death then a slow one !
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Old September 26, 2005, 01:01 AM   #18
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Okay, suddenly Kevlar doesn't look so expensive. Really hope that guy made it. It is things like this that make me hope that there is a hell. (As well as a heaven. )

BTW, that logo doesn't mean anything. People collect videos like this all the time and then put little logos like that at the end to generate traffic to their site where they have more videos. Looks like someone taped it off of TV.
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Old September 26, 2005, 03:32 AM   #19
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I cant watch the video after reading this.
I can only hope the BG got it slow in the end.
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Old September 26, 2005, 08:57 AM   #20
bdc
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yikes

I was involved in a litigation. Situation - hardened teeners murdering a national convenience store clerk. Very much like the video. Oh yes, the national chains do a lot of research into how to prevent holdups.

Similarly, I was involved in a litigation wherein the store clerk picked up an AK47 and fired a round into the ground that bounced and hit my guy. What generated it? The idiot clerk was on the telephone talking to a girlfriend and screwed up an order. A different customer admonished the clerk (being ethnically different from the clerk), they got into words and the clerk picked up the rifle and fired (having seen too many John Wayne movies).

When you think that you have the answer, you don't. There are a lot of dopers, crazies, mentally deranged in the world. Anyone who thinks that not knowing the outcome, he would have gone, fully exposed for some weapon, in this video, he is just blowing smoke. A national chain policy about no arms or resistance is meaningless in what you see in the video. Yes, I do personally know three people who drew and killed their assailants when the BGs had the drop on them. Then again, these people were actually trained shooters, not guys who buy a cheap gun, go to the range once in their lifetimes and think that they are shooters.
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Old September 26, 2005, 09:20 AM   #21
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My brother owns 3 conv.stores and i keep in mind that if someone were to come in and try to rob me , its the same as saying he will kill me when he is done.If he is armed its a threat to my life and working in a c-store you have to keep that in mind and be prepared for it. A gun in the safe and even a darringer in the till (cash drawer). Keep a piece of pipe near by and do what you have to do asap.Watch as each person walks thru the door if he looks even remotely suspicious ...get ready for possible action
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Old September 26, 2005, 10:57 AM   #22
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Its really easy to sit here and quarterback actions. The fact is, this appeared to be an older man. (and lets face facts, our reaction times get slower as we age, adrenaline or not) He was no doubt completely scared out of his wits, as he appeared to have trouble even fumbling to get the register open. I am saddened and sickened by this video. Even if the clerk was armed, he had no chance in this situation. Would * I * have done something different? I really don't know. I'd like to think so, but truth is, I'm not sure anything could have changed the outcome. I think if such stores are going to outlaw guns, they should at least box in the cashier area with some BP glass. Give the guys a chance anyway. I'm really sick of this sheeplike compliance crap. If you choose to comply, its your life, but if you are FORCED to comply due to ignorant company policy, then they should be completely liable.
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:23 PM   #23
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Is it just me or do I see penetration through the back? If you look carefully it looks like it went through him but didnt have enough force to make it through his jacket.
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Old September 26, 2005, 12:27 PM   #24
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It does definately look like several of the shots penetrated. Wish we could find some update or reference to see if the clerk made it....
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Old September 26, 2005, 02:40 PM   #25
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Anyone go to the site in the video at the end. My laptop won't play the video. I will check it out when I get home.
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