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Old September 13, 2005, 08:09 PM   #26
kingudaroad
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In this country , aren't we allowed to have an individual opinion as to what is ethical and what is not within our laws and constitution. The reason the story of Mr. Drury was published in the first place is because what he did was interesting and unique. He didn't jeopardize any deer population. He just wanted to shoot a nice deer. Seems as though you feel that anyone without the same beliefs as you is somewhat less of a person. Thats simply not true.
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Old September 13, 2005, 08:46 PM   #27
DimitriS
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Butch I agree with you 100%.

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Old September 13, 2005, 09:44 PM   #28
butch50
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He just wanted to shoot a nice deer. Seems as though you feel that anyone without the same beliefs as you is somewhat less of a person. Thats simply not true.
He wired the woods up with sophisticated electronic equipment to the point that he was taking 4,600 photos per year, and that is just wanting to shoot a nice deer? 4,600 photos a year? I haven't taken that many in my entire life, have you? Do I think hunters that don't hunt at a basic skill level are less of a person? Nope, but people who rely on sophisticated gadgetry to overcome the deers native ability instead of developing hunting skills are not hunters that I have any respect for. Guess you could tell, huh?

Quote:
In this country , aren't we allowed to have an individual opinion as to what is ethical and what is not
Take that attitude with you the next time you play any sport and see where it gets you.

How about one of these for your next hunting trip?
Quote:
Wireless Stealth Cam Range Camera Monitor System - See action in 2 places at once! Look ahead from your stand AND glance at the 5" black & white monitor to see deer sneaking up behind you up to 100 yds. Plus infrared emitters allow imaging in low light conditions.
Dimitri we are obviously an endangered species.
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Old September 13, 2005, 09:55 PM   #29
Mike P.
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How terrible of him using modern technology, the only ethical way to take deer is by buldogging them and breaking their neck.
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Old September 13, 2005, 09:56 PM   #30
DimitriS
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Well Butch thats ok I am young so I got plenty of time to try and get people to understand .

Plus dont worry Butch that alot of people here dont agree with us all my friends who are hunters think the same way. And the one that is teaching me about hunting as I am still young is pretty conservative about hunting. He wears thouse red and black checkered jackets still (same one after 20 years of hunting since he got it ).

His ideas about hunting still manage to out do all the technology that other hunters I have seen use and I want to learn to hunt just like him being relativly new to hunting myself.

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Old September 13, 2005, 10:04 PM   #31
butch50
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How terrible of him using modern technology, the only ethical way to take deer is by buldogging them and breaking their neck
Is that your best shot? And your a hunter?

Quote:
His ideas about hunting still manage to out do all the technology that other hunters I have seen use and I want to learn to hunt just like him being relativly new to hunting myself.
Good for you, you are one of the lucky ones to have a mentor teaching you skills and respect.

Lack of mentorship may be the predominant factor in the creation of slob hunters.
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Old September 13, 2005, 10:04 PM   #32
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/rant
If you're gonna use a truckload of cameras, why bother?! Just raise that perfect buck on a freakin' farm... You'll still have your trophy, and you'll have spent about as much raising the darn thing as you woulda spent on cams, time wasted looking at footage, and film!

/end rant

I think it's kinda stupid to use such an excess of technology, but if he wants the biggest buck and doesn't care how he gets it, then who am I to argue? Like most things, personal preference rules the day. Me? When I hunt, I'll have a 70+ year old rifle, iron sights, and some orange clothes. A map, also...

Wolfe.

EDIT: Then again... For my first couple hunts, I might cheat a lil' and drag an old geezer along with me...
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Old September 13, 2005, 10:17 PM   #33
DimitriS
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EDIT: Then again... For my first couple hunts, I might cheat a lil' and drag an old geezer along with me...
You need a mentor or teacher to learn anything in life its not cheating .

I dont know about any of you but without my parents, other adults I know and teachers I wouldnt be the person I am today they taught me everything to date about academics and life I dont think its cheating. Better then everyone still living in caves .... but wait a caveman would take his son hunting to teach him how to hunt wouldnt he ??

Me I got my "old geezer" so to speak (he is like 45 and has been hunting for the last 35+ years ) .... I dont think I am cheating just learning something that has been passed down from one person to another throughout the ages in its most basic form teaching someone what you know to be passed down to the newest generation.

Teaching someone how to hunt is probrobly just as much part of hunting as actually killing the animal in this fine long tradition dating back thousands of years

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Old September 13, 2005, 11:47 PM   #34
DAVID NANCARROW
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This is such a funny thread-one guy goes out and spends a billion-zillion dollars on cameras, and now we have people sticking their noses in the air like they are Christ coming to cleanse the unwashed.

Take a break.

It's not your hunt and its not your money. NOBODY is telling you that you must hunt this way. I'm sure there is some do-gooder politician who will try to fix it for you. And about 10 more who want to fix you too!

I hunt out of a stand (oh NO!) in an area where you either stand hunt or you better be 10 feet tall to see over the scrub, cactus and mesquite. Feeder runs year around and has done so for decades. Never see the big ones coming to it in the daylight, but I once took "unfair advantage" and watched all night with infared to see what was coming around. Fun, even without a rifle.

My biggest deer have generally been taken in the opposite direction, but I hunt mostly doe. No need for horns, doe's are easier to dress out, and since most of the guys on the lease are horn hunters, I figure I balance it out by taking a couple of girls each year. But then, I am a meat hunter, and take shots according to the size of the animal.
Little ones don't interest me because there just isn't much there. My targets are the medium-large to large does and bucks. This is not a sport for me-I do not care for some of the steroids found in beef cattle, so its mainly what I graze on all year.
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:02 AM   #35
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now we have people sticking their noses in the air like they are Christ coming to cleanse the unwashed.
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Feeder runs year around and has done so for decades.
Quote:
This is not a sport for me-
Quote:
I do not care for some of the steroids found in beef cattle, so its mainly what I graze on all year.
The comparison to Christ was rather sickening. It shows deep anger and resentment, far more than would be expected from someone not personally offended

Could it be that you hunt on private land and don't see the slob hunters? Could it be that since you hunt on private land that you are not aware of how badly the sport is deteriorating?

Or could it be that some of what I said hit too close to home for you? Is that why you are saying you don't hunt for sport? Really? Then why don't you just pen raise deer for slaughter? Or save your self money and all that wasted time and effort of sitting in a stand and shooting deer, and just buy organic meat? You don't enjoy hunting? To you it is just a meat harvest?

Or could it be that you enjoy hunting, as a sport, but don't want to defend the fact that you are training deer to come to a specific place every day with bait, and that even though legal, under the rules of fair chase that is an improper advantage? You can not have it both ways, so you try to wiggle out by saying you don't hunt for sport. I call you on that - I call that hypocrisy. If it wasn't a sport for you, if it was just for meat, you would either raise it like livestock or buy meat that is raised without steroids, which is readily available on the market.
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Old September 14, 2005, 09:08 AM   #36
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A lot of what some of you hate about what's happening to the sport, is exactly what's keeping it alive, and continuing to draw people into the sport.

As someone pointed out, a lot of urbanites are involved in hunting which require them to take off from work, plan an expensive mini-vacation...etc. They want to bag a deer. Period. So if they use the latest advanced muzzle loader or that high tech compound bow or any other newer gadget - I can understand why. At least that person is a hunter - and may end up standing shoulder to shoulder with you fighting for gun rights. Remember that while you shake your head in disgust at them walking into the woods with that Mathews Switchback, dawned in camo, with a GPS in one hand, and a high energy bar in the other.

I don't know for sure, if numbers are up or down for the sport of hunting. One thing I am sure of, is that I don't care if the "new generation" of hunters has to walk into the woods looking like a pack of ninjas - if they can afford to do that - well that's just great. I'm just glad they're out there hunting.

And, for those who think they are a "primitive hunter", you may not understand the meaning of the word primitive - nor do you understand the origins and history of hunting. It didn't begin here in America (at least not from your ancestors) and it certainly didn't begin with muzzle loaders and long bows.
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Old September 14, 2005, 10:53 AM   #37
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As someone pointed out, a lot of urbanites are involved in hunting which require them to take off from work, plan an expensive mini-vacation...etc. They want to bag a deer. Period.
I live in praticlly right in down town Toronto and every hunter I know is a "urbanites" but they own some land far from here. They go scouting every weekend before the season to locate where the deer should roughly be. They take there vacation from work once season starts and they hunt the whole time.

None of them have went to hightech nonsense in there time hunting. The most hightech equipment they carry is a GPS system so they dont get lost and walkie talkies which are required by law when your group hunting

They have seen all sorts of people using "hightech" equipment like heat sensors etc for moose hunting and all that fancy equipment has never payed off.

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Old September 14, 2005, 11:03 AM   #38
Ben Swenson
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people who rely on sophisticated gadgetry to overcome the deers native ability instead of developing hunting skills are not hunters that I have any respect for.
I still don't understand ... how does a firearm not fall under this statement? You've got some arbitrary standard that you bend so that you can have fun your own way and anyone who does things differently is a "slob hunter". You use a sophisticated gadget as a means to overcome the deer's native ability in the first place and then proclaim that no one else should use sophistcated gadgetry if it doesn't meet your arbitrary standards.
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Or could it be that you enjoy hunting, as a sport, but don't want to defend the fact that you are training deer to come to a specific place every day with bait, and that even though legal, under the rules of fair chase that is an improper advantage? You can not have it both ways, so you try to wiggle out by saying you don't hunt for sport. I call you on that - I call that hypocrisy. If it wasn't a sport for you, if it was just for meat, you would either raise it like livestock or buy meat that is raised without steroids, which is readily available on the market.
Hypocrisy? Like complaining that people use technology to kill deer while you carry a weapon into the field that can accurately put a projectile into the deer's vitals from a great distance? Like it or not, that's advanced technology whether it is a scoped centerfire rifle or a flintlock frontstuffer. Whether your bow is a compound with a letoff or a simple recurve. That gives you an unfair advantage over a deer, but that doesn't bother you because it is the way you enjoy doing things.

Hunting is a sport, sure, but not a team sport. It's not a sport where you have to come check with me before you can change the color of your camo or where I have to run my new load by you before I go hunt with it. There are some basic laws set out to govern the taking of game that vary from state to state, but as long as you operate within those laws you're just competing with yourself. You keep referring to going to play a team sport and changing the rules. Well, this isn't that type of sport. If you want to make that comparison, a more accurate one would be you walking into another family's baseball game and complaining about their bat being corked, their ball being non-reg and that they were wearing unapproved sunglasses or didn't have the right size field and stomping off complaining that they weren't really playing baseball if the pitching rubber wasn't 60' 6" from home plate.

My hunting mentor doesn't like to use a firearm at all. It's not that he never has, or that he sees something unethical with it, they just make the sport too easy for him. He wants the challenge of bowhunting. That's great, and his choice. He doesn't tell me (or you) to ditch the guns entirely and only bowhunt.

The sport of hunting is about competing with yourself, not with every other hunter. If you're into that and you want to hunt competatively then you will have to adopt the rules of some organization. This guy hunted a different way than you would. Fine. I wouldn't do it his way either. I won't sit here and call him a slob hunter because he doesn't hunt my way, though. As far as we know, he cleanly killed the deer he hunted and did so within the laws of his state on his own property. If it took him a thousand dollars worth of camera equipment, that's his business.

It is kind of funny how self-righteous people get when someone does something a different way and it works.

Please understand, Butch, it's not that I disagree with your chosen methods of hunting. I wouldn't enjoy hunting the way Drury does. It wouldn't do it for me. Your style of hunting is a lot closer to mine, I think. I love to spend time being a part of nature, not running power cables through it. The difference between us is that where you see some joker breaking your rules and being a personal insult to you, I see some guy doing things differently than I would want to but doing them safely and in his own back yard. Unfortunately, your attitude is more akin to those who say "Well I've got no need for an scary-looking rifle that shoots fast, so no one should own them!" or "Pistols are fun to shoot, but I don't carry one so we shouldn't let them be made small enough to conceal."
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Old September 14, 2005, 12:20 PM   #39
DAVID NANCARROW
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It shows deep anger and resentment, far more than would be expected from someone not personally offended
Butch-I don't really care what you think. This isn't brain surgery, just an internet site. I don't have a single issue with the way you hunt. You sound like a safe hunter to me, which, in my book is very important. Hard to enjoy a day in the field when you leave in an ambulance or a hearse. One of the main reasons I hunt on a lease-or should I say shoot deer on a lease in order to keep your blood pressure down

Why don't I pen raise deer? That might be an issue on the postage stamp piece of ground I live on, but I am working on getting out of the city, which might also have some say about animals I raise in the yard.

As to the hippocrite part, check your mirror, friend. You are developing a mightier than thou attitude, and so long as you are freely dispensing advice, I have a tidbit for you-cancel your subscription to American Hunter magazine. They obviously show different ways of taking game, and it upsets you unnecessarily.

If this kind of thing is "not hunting" to you, so be it. Nobody is gonna throw stones at you. I don't think you should be tossing them either, but that is your choice. One of the main reasons we feed is to suppliment their diet, which is not much in the way of food. As I said before, I don't shoot over the feeder mainly because only the youngun's congregate there. Maybe you missed that part.

There is a pretty good reason I stand hunt, other than the fact that if you are hunting where I hunt, your shots are gonna be limited to about 5 yards on a shale hill full of salt cedar, cactus and mesquite. The other reason should be obvious in my attached picture. It's not bad for normal walking, but it does kind of get in the way for rough terrain. Think its easy? Lets see you do it!

Last edited by DAVID NANCARROW; November 2, 2005 at 01:40 PM.
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:14 PM   #40
butch50
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As to the hippocrite part, check your mirror, friend. You are developing a mightier than thou attitude, and so long as you are freely dispensing advice, I have a tidbit for you-cancel your subscription to American Hunter magazine. They obviously show different ways of taking game, and it upsets you unnecessarily.
I would be a hypocrite if I preached one thing and did another. I don't though, thank you. The Magazine is just another symptom of the illness infecting hunting. If it was the only thing, then believe me I wouldn't read it, but it is a minor thing yet indicative.

Quote:
There is a pretty good reason I stand hunt
And a good reason it appears to be too. Hunting techniques also have to change with terrain. In super thick brush, there may be no other reasonable way than an elevated stand, if a stand is used without bait that is. If you feed primarily to supplement the deers nutrition, you can also do that without hunting over it.

Quote:
people who rely on sophisticated gadgetry to overcome the deers native ability instead of developing hunting skills are not hunters that I have any respect for. I still don't understand ... how does a firearm not fall under this statement?
Hunting is a traditional sport. We traditionally hunt with guns, some with bows. Traditional, see? It is not traditional to use electronic spy gear, for instance. Using a new modern precision rifle during rifle season is just fine. Using a modern ML during centerfire season is excellent. Using a bow during centerfire season is awesome. Would you consider it OK to use a rifle during bow only season? Given your logic it would seem to be fine.

Quote:
The sport of hunting is about competing with yourself
Competing with yourself? What? You are competing with the deer, not with yourself or other hunters. You are pitting your skill and brain against the deers' instincts, senses and knowledge of the field.


Quote:
It is kind of funny how self-righteous people get when someone does something a different way and it works.
You think it wrong to get angry when someone sees a fine traditional sport being vandalized by consumer frenzy and the "I gott have a deer every time I go hunting cause I live in the city and only have a little time to hunt" crowd?------

Quote:
As someone pointed out, a lot of urbanites are involved in hunting which require them to take off from work, plan an expensive mini-vacation...etc. They want to bag a deer. Period.
That is true and so WRONG! Hunting isn't about bagging a deer every trip. In fact, these same people spend so much money on hunting that they feel that they MUST bag a deer. The instant gratification group sucks. Pure and simple sucks. I live in the middle of a very large metro-plex and I have as little time as anyone else for hunting - yet I don't for a minute feel bad if a hunting trip doesn't end with a carcass. It is the process that is important, not the body count.
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:36 PM   #41
DAVID NANCARROW
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I give up, Butch. You are just so superior that I demand everyone who does not hunt like you turn in their gear immediately. :barf:
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:46 PM   #42
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I give up, Butch. You are just so superior that I demand everyone who does not hunt like you turn in their gear immediately.
Let's say that there is a wide gray line between what I believe is acceptable hunting and what you believe is acceptable hunting. Lets say that I have pretty well defined where I see the line. Can we define where, or if, you see it? Which of these questions would you answer no to.


Is it OK to hunt over bait?
Is it OK to use a deer feeder that has a trough that automatically closes at night so that deer become trained to only come to it in daylight?
Is it OK to use life sized, life like, deer decoys that robotically move and are remote controlled?
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per 100 acres?
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per acre?
Is it OK to use electronic "ears" that enhance your hearing to a point that is well beyond what any human can normally hear?
Is it OK to use a portable infrared sensor to locate deer you can't see?
Is it OK to strap a closed circuit camera to the back of your tree stand so that you can see behind you with a portable TV monitor?
Is it OK to hunt during ML season with a ML that has a scope, if you don't have vision defects?
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:47 PM   #43
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Butch (I had a coach named Butch);

I agree with you sentiment, but I will not ask others to meet my standards on their land or lease (not that mine are particularly high).

Yes, gizmos and gadgets are rediculious at some point. And the more you use the further it takes you from nature and fair chase. Who gets to draw that line? The answer to that question is beautiful: You get to draw the line for you.

These city slickers (I'm a city slicker; probably in the same metroplex) who have heat seeking or intra-red are not getting any real dividend from the spiritual nature of hunting. Their loss. I can't or won't pass judgement as to what they get out of the event.

Now, if they wound deer. Or loose wounded deer. I have a ethical issue if it is reoccuring. If it is happening near our hunting grounds --- I have an ethical issue and a land management issue.
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:53 PM   #44
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Yes, gizmos and gadgets are rediculious at some point.
You made some good points.

My original point was that NRA was supporting a hunter who has so many cameras set up that he takes 4,600 pictures per year. That is beyond ridiculous, that is extreme. That is so far off the scale as to make me wonder what the NRA is thinking in making it sound like this guy is Mr. Wonderful. 4,600 is an incredible number.

NRA (and this 4,600 pictures a year "hunter") have lost sight of fair chase.

One of the comments above was that hunting isn't "The Truman Show" - which is a very apt description of what this guy is doing. I say what he is doing is wrong, very wrong. NRA says it is right, very right.

What do you say - is he right or is he wrong?
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:54 PM   #45
DAVID NANCARROW
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Quit ducking the real issue-exactly what this boils down to is YOU wanting to tell everyone else how to hunt. PERIOD.
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:57 PM   #46
butch50
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So, did you answer yes to every one of the questions? Are you ducking the questions?

Do I want everyone to hunt fair chase? You bet. Do I want them to use equipment that doesn't give them an improper advantage over the deer? You bet. Am I vocal about it? Yes.

So?
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Old September 14, 2005, 09:03 PM   #47
fisherman66
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I say it is wrong to encourage other's to hunt this way. I don't say it is wrong to hunt this way. Semantics I guess. I don't even call that hunting, but what you do on your property is your business.

Besides the fact; it is impossible for the VAST majority to undertake and finance that type of venture.

My father-in-law (who has brought me into the hunting fold) shared a paradigm that I like. It is similar to the Maslow's hiarchy.

New hunter - happy with any methodology if it yields a deer
Experience hunter - enjoys hunting as a challenge and makes it more difficult by reducing their edge if it leads to a dead deer.
Trophy hunter - not satisfied with any deer; willing to pass on taking a deer for a year if it does not meet preset requirement
Management hunter - Global thinking for deer. Will let a trophy pass in order to make more trophys later.
Teacher - Finds it more satisfying to teach other and enjoy their feeling of accomplishements

(I pulled that from memory - I may have goofed and left something out. - It may actually have a source that I can't cite at this point.)
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Old September 14, 2005, 09:12 PM   #48
DAVID NANCARROW
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Is it OK to hunt over bait? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use a deer feeder that has a trough that automatically closes at night so that deer become trained to only come to it in daylight? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use life sized, life like, deer decoys that robotically move and are remote controlled? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per 100 acres? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per acre? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use electronic "ears" that enhance your hearing to a point that is well beyond what any human can normally hear? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use a portable infrared sensor to locate deer you can't see? none of your/my business
Is it OK to strap a closed circuit camera to the back of your tree stand so that you can see behind you with a portable TV monitor? none of your/my business
Is it OK to hunt during ML season with a ML that has a scope, if you don't have vision defects? none of your/my business

In other words, its really none of your/my business. Provided it is legal in the area hunting, you don't get to choose, Butch. Simple as that. You may not like it, but the world does not revolve around you.
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Old September 15, 2005, 12:43 AM   #49
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Ya'll oughtta take a chill pill, IMHO... This ain't something worth a big arguement. We know eachother's opinions, and we don't and won't agree... Besides, there are still plenty of deer out there...

Wolfe.
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Old September 15, 2005, 01:14 AM   #50
Twycross
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Join Date: January 26, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 1,187
I second the chill pill. This is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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