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Old September 10, 2005, 11:49 AM   #1
butch50
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What happened to Muzzle Loaders?

Looking at the new Cabella's catalog I am disgusted to see what is happenning to traditional muzzle loader rifles. They began evolving into super high technology blackpowder monstrosities after the black powder deer seasons became prevalent. The original intent of having a muzzle loader season was to create a primitive hunting season, one that was to be more sporting, or in other words the intent was that it would be more difficult to kill deer. The hunter would be limited to shots of about 100 yards or less and not be able to reload rapidly. This was an opportunity to experience hunting as our forefathers knew it.

These new rifles are legal loophole rifles - they are using every modern technique that can be dreamt of to create rifles that are as close to centerfire performance and rapid loading as they can get and still squeak inside the primitive season :barf:
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Old September 10, 2005, 12:01 PM   #2
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I had to look twice at the ones that looked like bolt action rifles, I couldn't figure out what htey were at first.

I don't hunt, not my thing, but I always thought that traditional muzzleloading was pretty fascinating. Now, I dunno, it seems cheap.

On the other hand, I don't need to hunt for food, I suppose that if you shoot to eat, anything's acceptable. WEll, almost anything.. -shrug-
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Old September 10, 2005, 12:58 PM   #3
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Many states don't allow hunting with the modern ML rifles. Inline is allowed in WA only if the piece uses traditional cal and cap is exposed. So we are kinda middle-of-the-road here. I agree with the idea of ML being use of the traditional guns, whether flintlock or caplock. I DON'T like the modern looking weapons.

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Old September 10, 2005, 04:48 PM   #4
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...archery has been suffering from the same disease for a long time....gadget-drunk generation...HICCUP!!!!
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Old September 10, 2005, 05:36 PM   #5
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I have zero problems with them hunting during regular rifle season with them. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

But to compare a scoped Knight inline with an iron-sighted Lyman Great Plains and try to say that they're both of the same cloth is silliness. One is a new slick accurized take-off of the tradition that the other embraces faithfully.
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Old September 10, 2005, 08:09 PM   #6
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I could admire someone using one of those modern loop hole muzzle loaders during regular season in all honesty. But certainly not for using one in muzzle loading season.

I am of course a traditionalist of the old old school. You know, honor and all that old stuff.....
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Old September 10, 2005, 08:24 PM   #7
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Its' a sign...

of the times.
Traditionalist don't count for much anaymore, the faster better bigger crowd want to be satisfied NOW.
In the lower third on Michigan where is shotgun or ML, the modern POS, rules for now you can take the 250+yards shot without worring about tracking closer as a traditionalist has to.

I think Pa., has it right nothing newer thatn 1830 technology.
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Old September 10, 2005, 08:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
...archery has been suffering from the same disease for a long time....
100% right - take a look at these new multi cam/levered aircraft cable strung optical sighted mechanical arrow launching machines and call them bows? About the only thing they have in common with a bow is ...well....ummm.. Absolutely Nothing?
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Old September 10, 2005, 11:22 PM   #9
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Well, the ones with removable breech plugs are sure a lot easier to clean.
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Old September 10, 2005, 11:42 PM   #10
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But cleaning's half the fun!

Heck, I've even got a black stain on my shoe from the last time!

Ok... More on topic... I think we need a side-locking mechanism law where your firearm must be ignited via some form of side-hammer... Be it flint, cap, or 209 primer.

Also, some no-optics laws... Force guys to use iron sights, even if peeps.

That would pretty-well handle all those 'I can't beleive it's Black Powder!' type arms.

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Old September 11, 2005, 12:29 AM   #11
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Sigh... No special BP law at all in Wyo. Shoot with a rifle of any kind and you're gonna hunt in the regular season. I think there is only one area with bp reg and that the area type, not a season - can't use any other firearm there at all...

Still like to break out the ol' flinter at times though!

(Wonder if these modern "cheat" guns would make the implimintation of such a BP season more difficult? Bet they would - more to argue over anyway! )
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Old September 11, 2005, 01:34 AM   #12
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..which is why I always shot an honest recurve or longbow..not interested in shooting a compound(handicap)bow...one day when I try a blackpowder muzzle-loader i want to use a genuine muzzle-loader, not some gadget-impregnated muzzle loading ray gun thing..ick! Let there be sportsman and not gadget-drunkards!
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Old September 11, 2005, 08:02 AM   #13
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just curious as to how long you all's general firearms / shotgun season is. where i live we have 2 weeks. i also don't have any private land i get to hunt on. if i'm in the woods (national forest is all i got) maybe once a week during any particular season, i wanna be able to drop anything I want to. this means if i'm in a treestand and can't get any closer to the deer, then i need somethin that will reach out and touch 'em. so rail on me if you want to, but right now i'm a failry new hunter who would rather learn and be confident in my abilities with new equipment that is better than I am, than to struggle and get frustrated / quit hunting b/c i have to use ancient equipment. i tell you what hunting a feeder, using dogs, and doing drives is "cheatin" to me. wheres the skill in runnin all the deer to one person. nope. i spend as much time scouting and preparing for the season as the next guy, but when that chance comes, I know i have a better "handicap" with better equipent.
also, I plan on moving up from a compound to a recurve someday, but like i said i'm startin with the most forgiving equipment.
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Old September 11, 2005, 10:23 AM   #14
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Most hunters evolve through a series of stages:

1. Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill quantity over quality

2. Kill less and hunt more, pass up a few shots that are low percentage

3. Kill a lot less and trophy hunt, pass up most everything

4. Rarely kill anything except the occasional meat for the pot and really big trophies, they find the process of hunting and associating with their buddies to the the true pleasure..

If you follow the norm, then with experience you will prefer the challenging hunt over the more certain hunt.....leaving the woods without a deer won't be the least bit disappointing, and unless you missed out on a real trophy, you will come to appreciate leaving the woods without a deer.

Just some general philosophical BS to try to explain that it is the hunting, not the killing, that is the thing...and that is where using traditional primitive weapons comes in, the limitations that come with them are what improves the hunting experience....
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Old September 11, 2005, 03:48 PM   #15
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i agree with you and i have already let a considerable number of deer pass, but right now i'm still a newbie. you guys are unequivocally condemning anyone who uses modern technology just b/c you may be at different stage in the "hunting experience" than some of the rest of us. if you want to get truely primative and back to the way it originally was, try throwing rocks at them or jumping on the back of a deer with a knife in hand. to you "primative" is a long bow with wooden(?) arrows or an old flintlock muzzleloader. to me being within 100 yards of a deer with only a single shot is still pretty primitive. if most hunters follow the trends you speak of, then it seems like it would be natural for them to change over to more primitive weapons as experience increases. you gotta crawl before you can walk, and right now advanced technology makes it easier to get up and running.

so say what you want, but over the next several weeks i'll be patterning deer, setting up my stand, and hoping to take a shooter buck with one of those newfangled single cam, high speed bows so that i can make a clean fair shot on a deer. you wanna talk BS we can go into crossbows that are becoming popular everywhere. i'll also be takin my super-duper TC Encore in the woods come muzzle-loader. but here's the real question, how many of ya'll will be takin semi's or high-capacity bolt actions into the woods during general firearms? I'll be using a Ruger GP100 and a single shot TC Encore 30-06
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Old September 11, 2005, 08:12 PM   #16
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Hit a nerve did I?

Hunt any way you want to, long as it's legal. Don't automatically expect respect from anyone, in fact don't ask for it either. You'll be much happier that way.
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Old September 11, 2005, 09:15 PM   #17
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..at what point does the sport disappear?...we could design guns that automatically aim themselves..but then how could we admire someone who took a good shot and hit his target?....we could design something that automatically track's a game's exact location...but then where would the skill of a good hunter come in?....get the picture? the more gadgets that do our hunting for us, the less skill we truly have...that is my point...and I want to be proud of my skill and marksmanship not of my dependance on gadgets...
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Old September 12, 2005, 01:41 PM   #18
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The demise of "primitive weapons season" here in PA is a simple matter of economics. The PA Game Commission has bills to pay, and selling a limited number of archery and smoke pole permits to the traditional hunters didn't pay the bills. Today's gadget may not seem as sporting, but the Game Commission can sell hundreds of thousands of permits to folks who wouldn't have given a nickel for one a few years ago.
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Old September 12, 2005, 02:19 PM   #19
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Since most of us do not hunt for food (we can pick stuff up at the local grocery) it's a luxury to use the older technology.

It's the natural progression of things... We develop better, more efficient ways to hunt. Archers, ML hunters, centerfire rifle hunters, and then there's those handgun fellas - where do they fit in? Each type has new technology each year, and in some ways they each use the same new stuff...

Do any of you use high-tech camo with Scent-Lok and all that carbon filled stuff? Or high-tech doe scents and calls? Or hunt over decoy's? Or automated deer feeders? Or use motion detection cameras to see what big deer are in the area?...etc.

It's all the same... same as using that "high-tech" muzzleloader...
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Old September 12, 2005, 04:11 PM   #20
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look in the end it comes down to scouting and shot placement. whether I use a saboted round or an old .50 ball out of a hex barrel really doesn't make a difference. I spent my time before the season, set myself up in the right place, held my gun steady, pulled the trigger, and tracked the deer. i'm not able to get a 300 yard shot where I hunt, so what difference does it make on the range of the gun? I bought a TC encore so i could get another rifle cheaply.i have a 209X.50 and a 30-06 for about $600. hard to beat. so like i said if you wanna talk primitive go back to jumpin on a deers back and sliting his throat with a knife. but since we're all using projectiles, what difference does it make? I still have to aim and shoot.

but out of all ya'll who are puttin down the "new" equipment, how many of ya'll have hunted deer drives? how many of you have run dogs? how many have hunted with a guide? how many use a 7mm or 300 ultra mag for deer? by ya'lls standards everyone should be using a 30-30 (which i love and have taken many deer with) or nothing at all. how many have leupold scopes of your rifles? how many are thinkin about crossbows? how many hunt from a tree stand? how many use salt licks or deer cane? how many use trail cameras?

the skill is in the setup and the shot. if you cna't execute those 2 integral pieces of hunting all the technology in the world doesn't make a difference. I personally know how to get it done, i just take equpiment that feels better and is more reliable in th ewoods with me...

and trip, I just bought $50 worth of core-lokt .357 bullets today... can't wait to drop a doe with the beauty
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Old September 12, 2005, 05:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
..at what point does the sport disappear?...we could design guns that automatically aim themselves..
Aspen didn't you see on TV about that 'virtual deer' hunting that controlled a REAL gun that could aim at REAL deer and fire by remote supposedly for those less than fortunate to be able to get out and hunt....

That is a breach of the hunting 'contract'... If you can't be there, then you shouldn't be able to kill it. People don't seem to care much about the connection to nature anymore and are seemingly looking for that trophy buck.

I enjoy hunting occassionally, I generally eat supermarket meat, I'm not a rough and tumble guy but I hold my own in the woods and I enjoy going out into nature and living in it for a day. It's a beautiful place to be whether I get an animal or not. When it comes down to it I'd probably only save a fraction of any meat from a deer and donate the rest just because it's more deserving of someone else... but that might be why I don't hunt too much.

I see your issue with blackpowder too, I recently looked at buying a new one, and frankly the older revolvers and octagon barrels seem a lot easier to me. More simplistic and rugged. Albeit everything is synthetic now and days. I'm all for tradition, and I agree on the bow comments, I was looking for a new one of those as well but gave up because it's frustrated when you see AD after AD from someone's marketing department about a bow that boasts a 300+fps speed. Why, and yes, the bow that I wanted to buy only would have ended up costing me $1,000+ fully equipped with the gadgetry that some people feel they need.

I'd opt to buy more guns for that price. Maybe a couple Savage rifles, or a few pistols... ?

But it is what it is...
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Old September 12, 2005, 07:40 PM   #22
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Hunting is a sport, not a necessity (with very rare exceptions). It is a sport that is based on the traditions of what once was a necessity. It used to be a sport primarily indulged in by rural families and some urbanites. With the shifting demographics it has become largely a sport of wealthy urbanites. Wealthy in that it does take significant dollars to hunt, in the way most urbanites go about hunting these sad and sorry days.

With the shifting demography has come a shifting hunter/consumer passion for gadgets and things to use for hunting and showing off to other consumers - a lot of keeping up with the Jones'. Does your neighbor really need that 4 wheel ATV to hunt on a 500 acre lease? Does he really need to pay $2,000 a year for that lease? Does he really need a $500 set of camo clothes to hunt from a box blind over a corn feeder? Does he really need to have a $350 corn feeder? Does he really need that $2,500 rifle to shoot white tail deer? Does he really need all of those cameras to do his scouting for him? Does he really need that $400 GPS unit? Does he really need that $600 pair of binoculars? Does he really need that $400 laser range finder? Does he really really need to carry a cell phone in the woods? Does he really need a walkie talkie? Hunting has become more about the buying of things, than the doing of things.

With the emergence of this multi-million (billions?) dollar a year consumer market have come specialized corporations that cash in on the gadget frenzy - and it is a self feeding, maniacal frenzy, of more better and cooler every hunting season. Which is, to me, always discouraging and quite often disgusting :barf: .

Used to be that you would see a couple of hunters walking out into the woods armed with inexpensive rifles or shotguns, dressed in inexpenisve clothes, and that was it. That was all there was to it. They might have had compasses and canteens, but not expensive ones. Now you see hunters driving huge 4 wheel drive trucks, pulling trailers loaded with tower stands, ATVs, Feeders, box blinds, everyting including the truck in camo pattern and all kinds of just plain useless, needless, brainless, crap.

The primitive weapon seasons were intended to allow hunters a short period of time to hunt primitively, protected from all the gadgets and gadget morons out there. But, the corporations saw another market - and the technology creep was on. Look at the evolution of bows - from long bows and recurves, to these incredibly over-engineered machines that are not really bows anymore, but qualify anyway for bow season. Muzzle loaders that are so sophisticated that comparing them with traditional muzzloaders isn't possible. And the buffoons that want to take advantage of the primitive seasons without hunting primitively are gobbling these abominations up like kids eating candy. If you are hunting with a modern muzzle loader or compound bow during primitive seasons, and do not realize that you are a loop hole hunter, then take another long hard look at yourself and prepare to be disgusted by the sight. If, on the other hand, you are using these modern primitive contraptions only during regular season because they provide a limit on your capabilities over what is otherwise legal during that season, then more power to you and glad to meet you.

Incredibly the people who are the most caught up in this consumer buzz don't even recognize that they have become infected with a disease. Too bad what is happening to hunting. Too bad for the people who don't know what they are doing wrong, and are not capable of understanding what they are missing. Too bad that hunting in America has become a corporate enterprise and that so many hunters have become the prize fools of the hunting industry profit machine.

Rant off, flame suit on
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Old September 12, 2005, 08:23 PM   #23
Trip20
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Wow... anyone that doesn't do it your way gets the following from you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by butch50
gadget morons
Quote:
Originally Posted by butch50
And the buffoons that want to take advantage of the primitive seasons
Quote:
Originally Posted by butch50
take another long hard look at yourself and prepare to be disgusted by the sight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by butch50
they have become infected with a disease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by butch50
so many hunters have become the prize fools
If you want to be primitive, why don't you get a spear? Why use a firearm at all? Oh that's right, because it's more efficient, easier, and helps guarantee success.

Do you use any camo? If so, why? Why don't you make your own? Sew some foliage into your animal skins instead.

Do you use any technology to help you during your hunt? I sure hope not, I wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite.

When your done getting over yourself - you can then take a look at all of the techology YOU take advantage of even when you think your doing it the "primitive" way.

Then, hopefully you'll apologize to everyone that doesn't walk into the woods looking like this:

Last edited by Trip20; November 16, 2005 at 12:30 AM.
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Old September 12, 2005, 08:32 PM   #24
butch50
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Trip, if the shoe fits and pinches, then go ahead and wear it with pride.

Your argument to go back to throwing rocks doesn't wash. The primitive seasons are based upon the primitive techniques used in North America during the frontier days, not the stone age - they were specifically designed for bows and muzzle loaders.

You can take that same argument technique to the other extreme and ask why not use every single advantage that technology can possibly provide? How about infra-red goggles, hey why not electronic amplifying hearing devices too? What about live sattelite imagery transmitted to a hand held locator? How about you just log onto a website and shoot your deer from your living room and have the meat packaged up and shipped to you? Sound ridiculous? Just as your argument going the other way does.

I really like that picture, that is a man I would be proud to go hunting with, and I have no doubt I would learn a lot from - where can I get a copy?
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Old September 12, 2005, 08:50 PM   #25
Trip20
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More than once you've dodged the question regarding whether or not you use any technology at all.

Whatever butch, I don't hunt with a muzzleloader. I just felt your holier than thou attitude was ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by butch50
You can take that same argument technique to the other extreme
That was exactly my point. You argued to one extreme (remember the gadget morons?) and so I went to the other to point out how ridiculous and rude you are.

I'm done, enjoy your misery
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