The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 22, 2005, 11:38 AM   #1
FirearmFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 270
Came home to find shots fired and crime tape

Hi Everyone,

Wanted to get your opinions on this "little" problem and any advice you have to offer.

Came home from a nice dinner with the girlfriend to find my apartment complex manager outside with the police. Appearantly someone fired 10 rounds into the car of a rather shady neighbor of ours on the second level of our parking garage . No one was caught and no one saw anything. This happened at 10pm.

Now before you start thinking I live in the hood, I live in a gated, yep gated community , on the decent side of the tracks (Near the hood), with a bunch of other young professional types. Nurses, sales people, businessman,med students, some accountants, just regular folk. Recently some individuals that just spell trouble, moved in and I guess trouble followed them. I checked with the management office this morning, 12 hours later to find that the police told them nothing and that she has to call for the report. The police were there until 3:30 am looking over the crime scene with 2 two officers and a detective. Didn't see a crime scene unit pull up. Am I expecting too much? (If any law enforcement want to comment please let me know what to expect.)

I have a bunch of friends who live in this complex with me and we have decided to meet our girlfriends as their driving up and for the most part be REAL careful covering each others backs. In addition I am now carrying my full size USP .40 full time until I can buy a more compact gun.

Logic and law of the street says that if the person who had their car shot and is conducting illegal activities has to retaliate for the damage. Which then means someone else might come back and get even for what they do. I also think the original shooting was someone making a statement. How would any of you handle this and does anyone have any other suggestions. Any and all advice welcome.

Thanks for reading!
FirearmFan is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 11:51 AM   #2
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
Rule #1 with gated communities, is they do not keep determined criminals out, but they may keep you in. If a criminal can pay the rent or lease, he moves right in. If he has friends and enemies, they will follow. Gates fences and hired guards checking car tags are a false sense of security.

You should have been carrying 24/7. So should other people who live there.

Meeting your girlfriends and such IMHO increases your risk. Your girlfriends should be packing and able to care for themselves.

It's a 99% probability that this was a warning to the neighbor. If he does not move, and if he continues his shady behavior, expect more retaliation.

You and every other tenant in this gated community need to contact the owners of this apartment complex and demand they take out the trash, ie. evict the hazardous tenant. The only way to improve your safety is to get rid of the hazardous tenant. You and your neighbors may have to consult with an attorney and file a joint civil suit against your landlords if you have grounds in your state to make them take out the trash.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 12:39 PM   #3
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,308
XB covered things pretty well, but from the law enforcement perspective, you asked..
Quote:
Didn't see a crime scene unit pull up. Am I expecting too much? (If any law enforcement want to comment please let me know what to expect.)
Here's the honest answer, although you may not be happy with it. Expect nothing more from the PPD. I notice you're from Philly. It's a tough town and things like that happen all the time. Basically, unless someone was actually shot, PPD is not going to put a lot of man-hours and resources into it. It amounts to vandalism to a vehicle and discharging a firearm within the city. I don't know if the discharging part is a felony or not in Philly (wouldn't be here in OH), but the vandalism is a misdemeanor and not worth pursuing from a LE standpoint. I know it points to future trouble for you and I feel your pain, but that's the way it is.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 03:36 PM   #4
RWK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 1999
Location: Occupied Virginia
Posts: 2,777
I would not be too quick to discard the full-sized H&K USP .40 S&W. If you are highly proficient with it, it will serve you VERY well and it is absolutely not too large for easy concealment.
__________________
__________________
Μολών λαβέ!
RWK is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 03:57 PM   #5
chadwimc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2005
Posts: 155
Is the bad guy section 8 (subsidised housing)? If so, you may want to move. Its only going to get worse if you have subsidized units in your complex. I found out the hard way that a "nice, secure" place had thugs in each building.
chadwimc is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 03:57 PM   #6
Duxman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,294
I agree with XB. Definately complain the the community management and threaten to leave when your contract expires if they do not take out the trashy neighbors.

Usually people let their guard down when they get close to their home - mental thoughts of being safe, but in this case, I would highten my alert status when closing in on home.

Invest in a bulletproof vest - and wear it. Might save your life one day. Especially if you have to jump in front of your girl - when a possible encounter happens.

Carry an extra magazine.

Please ignore any and all of this advice if it is illegal in your state. Otherwise good luck.
Duxman is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 03:59 PM   #7
nug_38
Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2005
Location: Somewhere in VA
Posts: 38
No one type of community is safe from crime anymore. Even the nicest neighborhoods are not immune to crimal activity. How dark is the parkig garage? Is there sufficient light? Make suggestions to the property manager on how to reduced the attractiveness of the complex to these types of criminals. I just hope that they don't ban guns in the complex expecting criminals to comply

Be more cautious now. Develop your situation awareness. Teach your girlfriend to do the same. As was RWK said, if your full size USP is reliable and you are proficient, do not ditch it.

Stay safe.
nug_38 is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 05:47 PM   #8
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
If possible, visit your girlfriend at her place. Meeting her at the gate or in the garage is gentlemanly, but unless your tactically trained and bullet proof... what good will that "really" do if a shoot out occurs? I don't mean this as an attack on your skill-set, just trying to be realistic.

It's good you and your neighbors are watching each other’s back. You should organize a meeting with your neighbors to discuss the suggestions made above regarding lawsuit...etc.

That's a pretty serious thing that's happened in your back yard... even if the PPD don't necessarily agree.

Good luck with the situation. Best course of action is move if you can.
Trip20 is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 06:55 PM   #9
Eghad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
I think I would be movin if he was a neighbor.....
__________________
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 08:18 PM   #10
ScoutinStAugustine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2004
Location: East Coast, FL
Posts: 101
F.Y.I., I've been a felony probation officer for 20 years, and I've supervised people living in neighborhoods...from the million dollar mansions on the Island of Palm Beach to areas where police and EMT's really don't want to go...where the projects more closely resemble prison yards than neighborhoods. Don't think for a second that you're totally safe in your "gated" community. Sad but definately true.
ScoutinStAugustine is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 09:30 PM   #11
Spot77
Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 78
Thank goodness for that 10 year AWB, or else there could have been up to 15 or even 20 holes in the car. I guess the perpetrator didn't realize the ban was over
Spot77 is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 10:05 PM   #12
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,460
Quote:
Am I expecting too much
I don't know. Exactly what were you expecting?

Quote:
Logic and law of the street says that if the person who had their car shot and is conducting illegal activities has to retaliate for the damage. Which then means someone else might come back and get even for what they do.
I am not sure what logic and law of the street that says the person with the shot car is conducting illegal activities, that he will retaliate, and that someone would comeback again to get even. Given that you don't have any data on why the car was shot up, then your logic is invalid. This is because you have drawn a conclusion based on opinion and conjecture.

The only thing the shot up car tells you is that somebody shot up the car. You have no idea of the motive for the shooting. You don't know that it was shot because of the owner's supposed illegal activities. You don't know that the car's owner has conducted illegal activities. For the car owner to retaliate, he would have to know who the shooter was, but you have no way of knowing if the car's owner knew the shooter or not.

Basically, you have arrived at the conclusion that the car's owner is doing illegal activities solely on the bases that you think the guy and roomies "just spell trouble" and that the car was shot up.



The car could have been shot up for a variety of reasons other than the car's owner being involved in illegal activities. Here are some alternatives.

The car was shot up ...

- by a fellow resident who like you thinks the car's owner and roomie's are trouble. So they are being shown they are not welcome .

- as a matter of vandalism with no tie to the owner or roomies.

- in retaliation for something the owner did or did not do such as getting the shooter's sister pregnant, failure to repay a loan to the shooter, insulting the shooter
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old September 22, 2005, 10:07 PM   #13
poortrader
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 486
which part of philly are you in? I just moved to university city.
__________________
Stupid People will Always be stupid.

NRA Life Member
poortrader is offline  
Old September 23, 2005, 08:54 AM   #14
Jack Malloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2005
Posts: 791
Don't expect "CSI". Thats just hollywood fantasy.
The reality is that stuff like Fingerprints are pretty useless unless you have a suspect allready (fingerprints can tie a suspect to a crime scene, but in and of themselves they seldom ever are useful in capturing a crook).
Detectives or senior officers will have policed up the brass and probably turned it over to the state police to have it checked for markings etc.
But if the case is solved it is usually because one bad guy snitches another bad guy out to get his own @$$ off the hook.
Jack Malloy is offline  
Old September 23, 2005, 10:14 AM   #15
MEDDAC19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2005
Location: Endless Mts,NEPA
Posts: 379
Sad to say, but the car could have been shot up just for cutting someone off in traffic. They could have just followed the car back to the gates, and then got even later at night. It is sad to think that things have got this bad. Now a days individuals who feel they were "dis'd" over what I would consider insignificant things are ready to shoot, kill, and worse. What they consider an insult is unbelievable, it can be looking at them or their girl the wrong way to wearing the wrong shoes. I can't believe what some people will risk jail time for.
MEDDAC19 is offline  
Old September 23, 2005, 12:43 PM   #16
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,308
Quote:
The reality is that stuff like Fingerprints are pretty useless unless you have a suspect already (fingerprints can tie a suspect to a crime scene, but in and of themselves they seldom ever are useful in capturing a crook).
That's only partially true today, Jack, and it's getting better by the day. Having a specific suspect is of course a big plus and saves a lot of time, but it's not completely necessary. The FBI has a huge center in WV that maintains a fingerprint database of almost everyone that's been arrested (and others that have sensitive LE or gov. positions). A lot of small agencies aren't on board yet when it comes to submitting prints, but it's getting better. When we get a John Doe or a set of prints from a priority case, we FAX them to the center and usually have a positive ID within 20 minutes. The problems come in when dealing with first-timers (as adults)
and juveniles. Law prohibits maintaining fingerprint or photo files of juveniles, and that is, of course, a huge problem since a big chunk of violent crime in this country is committed by juveniles.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old September 23, 2005, 07:31 PM   #17
Vitamin G
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 307
Well, in PA they started taking DNA samples of anyone with a felony... Juveniles included.
Vitamin G is offline  
Old September 23, 2005, 08:11 PM   #18
Night Watch
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: June 30, 2005
Posts: 369
Maybe the problem is PHILADELPHIA! Personally, I'd ignore it. You're already carrying; you're aware of the situation; and, in all likelihood, the police have adjusted their routines to compensate for the recent event. If you want to make a small change that might tilt the odds in your favor, spend as little time as possible outside. Transit time is always danger time. Quite honestly, while you may be worried, I doubt any of this is going to continue; even if something does, why would it effect you personally? Make sure you don’t stand in front of the BG’s car; you should be fine.
__________________
'Things go wrong. The odds catch up. Probability is like gravity; and, you cannot negotiate with gravity. One other thing: God always has the last laugh. You need to remember that!'
Night Watch is offline  
Old September 24, 2005, 02:49 AM   #19
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,336
"...Am I expecting too much?..." Rolled into my ma's house and found her deader than a mackerel from natural causes at just after 11 pm. In Toronto, Canada. TO is bigger than most US cities. The Duty Coroner got there around 3 AM. One coroner for a city of roughly 2 million. Busy bunch.
The cop that sat with me, drinking coffee, I just happened to know was a Cdn. Viet Nam vet. He didn't know I knew and it doesn't matter. I'll do anything, any time for TO's cops. Not that I wouldn't have and have anyway.
"...gated community..." Is that not secured by a commercial security company? Does your committee or whatever not have a lawyer?
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old September 24, 2005, 05:11 AM   #20
Blackwater OPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,153
Quote:
The reality is that stuff like Fingerprints are pretty useless unless you have a suspect already (fingerprints can tie a suspect to a crime scene, but in and of themselves they seldom ever are useful in capturing a crook).
Only murder suspect I ever arrested was a young man who had shot an elderly man in the back 8 times with a .22 pistol during a home invasion robbery. He was linked to the crime by his fingerprints, with were in the database because of his "day" job. Daycare center employee.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential Liberty,
to purchase a little temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Ben Franklin

Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell
Died 9/1/2005
and the best DS ever
MSG Matthew Ritz
Died 11.23.2005
matthewritz.com

For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know.

(\__/)
(='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny!
(")_(")
Blackwater OPS is offline  
Old September 24, 2005, 09:54 AM   #21
Russ538
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 229
"He was linked to the crime by his fingerprints, with were in the database because of his "day" job. Daycare center employee."

I bet there weren't exactly a lot of parents who were happy to find out that a burglar and murderer had been watching their kids while they were at work.
Russ538 is offline  
Old September 24, 2005, 11:57 AM   #22
SamD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: Nueva Mexico
Posts: 166
FirearmFan,
Other than carrying 24/7 there is little that you can do on a personal level.
Realistically you will not be able to get the BG evicted from your complex. That is a very difficult legal process expeciall if he really is a BG and a section 8.

These things will continue to grow in frequency until such time as shooting BGs become common in your neighborhood. I don't think that is going to happen any time soon. This is where you need to get your friends and neighbors together and make an effort to change the outlook of the DA on how to handle shootings from a self defence perspective.

best wishes and Good Luck

Sam
__________________
"It's too late to work within the system,
but too early to shoot the bastards"
SamD is offline  
Old September 24, 2005, 01:33 PM   #23
PythonGuy
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 456
Sad truth is, you can carry 24/7, if its a drive-by you are SOL.

T. O'Heir, you sound like Bookman, the library cop on Seinfeld. What the hell are you talking about, dude?
PythonGuy is offline  
Old September 25, 2005, 01:56 PM   #24
L8sho2003
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2005
Posts: 6
Bad Guys...

a little paranoid? I lived in a gated community and had the same thing happen. The difference is that I actually saw it happen. It was retaliation for the actions of another resident. Don't flatter yourself. Mind your own business and there is little reason you would draw the attention of the assailant. Keep the carry piece handy, but don't let fear rule your life. Odds are, the guy with the shot up car got the message and the people who shot the car will never set foot on the property again. I would however make a point to have no association with the other resident.
__________________
Rem 740 12 g. 10 rd. mag, folding stock
Glock G19 15 rd. mags
Charco Pug .44 Spl
Colt Challenger .22
NEF .308 Bull barrel/ 6x24 world class
NEF .17 Hornady/ 6x24 world class
NAA 22lr mini
Rem. 700 7mm Mag/ Leo vari-x III
Browning A-bolt .270/ Leo vari-x II
Rem. 740 .243/ Leo vari-x I
Marlin model 39, made in 1939
Hawken .50 cal
Too many hunting scatterguns to list!
L8sho2003 is offline  
Old September 26, 2005, 04:21 PM   #25
FirearmFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 270
Thanks

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for offering advice or information. Nothing further has occurred and from what building management said there were two arrests made that same night. From here on in I'm carrying 24/7, (to my girlfriends dismay). Thanks again and I know I have people out there to offer advice should something else crazy happen.

Be careful and stay safe.
FirearmFan is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14655 seconds with 9 queries