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View Poll Results: Open Carry Good?
Yes, It should be encouraged 98 75.97%
No, Don't want to scare the "Sheeple" 33 25.58%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 27, 2005, 08:22 PM   #26
Duxman
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Rights are eroded little by little. First they take away your right to open carry, guess what next thing you know, no CC, then no guns.

This is probably one of the major reasons why a lot of us celebrate our freedoms as Americans by carrying open. I've done it, in a public restaurant - search for the thread here on TFL. No sheepies went nuts and called the cops - that is an urban legend that your friendly neighborhood leftist media wants you to believe.

I would like some statistics from those folks who believe that criminals attack gun owners to go on with their crime (ie bank robbers who shoot open carry folks, muggers etc.) The basic fact is that every state that allows open carry has a lot lower crime rate than the neighboring state that does not! Check out our neighbor - The Republik of Maryland vs the Crime stats here in Virginia. I am not even going to mention DC in this argument.

Stephen - its your right to express your opinion, but check out some alternative facts and do some reading, I hope you will change your mind, you seem to be an intelligent person - with good arguments, just do some reading and let us know how you feel after that.
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Old August 27, 2005, 08:43 PM   #27
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Thank you for your civilized reply Duxman. Please point me in the right direction for the reading material.

I am basing my statement that open carry is a tactical disadvantage on several things. First would be what I feel is common sense. If you are wearing your gun openly when something bad goes down, you had better have an opportunity to grab it before you get shot or have your weapon removed. If someone already has the jump on you (their weapon is already pointed at you) you really have no chance to use your gun. If you get hustled into an area with other "innocents", you might have a chance to draw and regain control of the situation.

Secondly, I had a conversation with a mall rent a cop. Although he is far from an authority on the matter, his comments made sense (to me). I asked him why he wears a bullet proof vest (no guns allowed) even when it is sweltering (this was summer time in Atlanta, GA). He told me that if something were to go down, he would most likely get shot first since their uniforms look like police uniforms.

I know this is based on my opinions and I appreciate those who at least consider it. That is why internet forums are so great. If we all agreed with everything everyone else said, it would get pretty boring very quickly.

One last thing is no one honestly responded to my post about whether or not you would discourage open carry if it affected your business.
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Old August 27, 2005, 09:01 PM   #28
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One last thing is no one honestly responded to my post about whether or not you would discourage open carry if it affected your business.
I don't know if my opinion applies here but,
If I had a business where customers came to my establishment I would not discourage, as in ask to leave, anybody open carrying anymore than I would ask freakishly dressed people to leave.

This may be a weird comparison, but many years ago I watched The Story of Sonny and Cher on TV.
Throughout the movie they consistently went to a certain restaurant and were on a first name basis with the owners and employees.
When they adopted the character Anthony and Cleopatra as
their gimmick and started dressing weird some customers complained.
Even though nothing had changed in them except their manner of dress the were asked to leave and not come back.
I thought that kinda sucked and feel the same way about any activity that does not directly harass other customers

If I had to alienate a customer it might as well be the one I have the least in common with.


When I had my own business it involved going into people's homes.
In that case I would not allow open carry because I was in their homes and had to take their perceptions, misconceptions and even prejudices into consideration.
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Old August 27, 2005, 09:08 PM   #29
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If I had a restaurant, I would encourage open carry. I would hope to attract customers that had a common interest. I might even put in a range in back Have some open competetions like the taverns do with pool, darts, shuffleboard, etc. Bet my restaurant would not get held up very often


Seriously, I support open carry. However I do not support it in exchange for concealed carry. It should be an option with both being legal.
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Old August 27, 2005, 10:18 PM   #30
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Not much in the way of poll options...

A yes or no would have been sufficient as answers for the poll. The way you worded the answers will probably make most people simply dismiss it without answering. Unless of course they share your (somewhat telegraphed) opinion.
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Old August 27, 2005, 10:38 PM   #31
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Well John K.....

It was kinda a reactionary thread started from the one that got locked (the most recent locked one in this forum). I do realize there are always gray areas, and exceptions. I was just looking for an overall opinion and wanted to see some reactions to different ideas from the same general community over such a controversial subject.....

Does that make me a Troll?

What do you mean by telegraphed opinion anyway?
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Old August 27, 2005, 11:36 PM   #32
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There isn't a vote for:
"Okay by me but tactically questionable."

In short:
Makes you a target if there is a holdup, etc.

Makes your weapon a target for a bad guy to take and use against you.
Uniformed officers carry openly but have the advantages of triple retention holsters and weapon retention training. A lot, if not most weapon carriers eschew the thumb break.

Works fine in a field/hunting/hiking scenario.
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:00 AM   #33
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Are you really that old or can we have a ride in your time machine? How the HELL can you say with such CERTAINTY that you know what our founding fathers were thinking???
Stephen -
Because I read their writings. Ever hear of The Federalist Papers??

If they wrote it and said it, I would dare to say that they meant it.

Have a nice day.

Quote:
If I had a restaurant, I would encourage open carry. I would hope to attract customers that had a common interest. I might even put in a range in back Have some open competetions like the taverns do with pool, darts, shuffleboard, etc. Bet my restaurant would not get held up very often
Amen to that, SWMIKE!!
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:13 AM   #34
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NP Stephen -

Here are some websites that can give you some different insight:

http://www.a-human-right.com/
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/
http://www.opencarry.org/

Read on the NRA, VCDL and other organizations and what they say about open carry and how long it took to win this fight (and what it took - to make this happen...)

Before we go into the unlikely scenario (lets be realistic here - any one of us here are probably more likely to win the lottery before getting into a tactical situation - if we maintain reasonable situational awareness, and prudence on where and what places we vist.) - lets talk about crime prevention.

The majority of criminals are not very smart. (No offense to the criminals in this board...if there are any ) - most of them have the bully philosophy, they want a helpless victim - attack the weak and make them give up their money / etc.

The very prescence of an armed person whether it be a civilian open carrying, a rent-a-cop, or a law enforcement officer prevents crime. Criminals will go somewhere else and / or rob someplace easier. The last thing they want is a confrontation with an armed opponent. So by open carrying - you have actually prevented a crime. No need for a tactical situation.

With regards to a business - I do not give my money to any business that will not allow me to walk in armed. I have actually run a set of restaurants here in Virginia back in the early 90's, and my philosophy has not changed - if a lawfully armed civilian where to walk in, he is just as welcomed as an unarmed patron.

Most people who see an armed person in civilian dress automatically assume undercover COP. Makes them feel safer in the "sheepie" sort of way. And when the local virginia law is explained to those who are concerend they are normally pretty logical about it. And if not, you really dont want their money anyway, they are going to cause problems whether its a complaint about the cleanliness of your bathroom or you allow "lawfully armed" civilians in your restaurant.

Think of it as the fox and the sour grapes. There are some customers who always complain.
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:35 AM   #35
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Because I read their writings. Ever hear of The Federalist Papers??
Ive read the Federalist papers too...Ive also briefed the issue of the 2nd amendment to an appeals court. I dont necessarily agree with you.

But regardless, I throw these random thoughts out at you all..

No rights are absolute, to the extent that they may be reaosnably tempered to fit the needs of scociety by society itself (whhich issue of reasonableness forms probably 90% of constiutional litigation) or...MORE IMPORTANTLY, individually tempered to meet the needs of courstey and decency to your fellow man or the polity as a whole not legally, but in terms of "being a good neighbor"

Any right can be excersized to the point of offensiveness...thats one of my biggest complaints about society today...that many folks are so self centered in their desire to excersize "rights' that they lose sight of the we all have to live together. Most of us want to go on with their day to day lives without bother, dishormony, concern, annoyance and strife. I have the right, under the 1st amendment to wear a T Shirt that says "Eat **** and Die, ***Wipe Yuppie" but I sure as hell wouldnt wear one and would hate to have my zen disturbed by watchiong some numbskull parade around in his...I have the same right to dip a crucifix and a flag in a bowl of poop and call it art, but I consider myself (beleive it or not) a bit too COURTEOUS to my fellow Americans to do that. If I was gay I sure as heck wouldnt be standing on the steps of St Patty's Catehdral swappin spit with a transgendered midget....I dont want to see folks carrying a picture of a bloody fetus while chanting "I had an Abortion Today", I dont want to see gay Porno in Walmart and I dont want to walk in to Nordstroms and see a guy at the perfum counter carrying a 45 in a tac rig on his hip and a subgun over his shoulder simply becasue he has a desire to scream "LOOK AT ME SHEEPLE IM EXCERSIZING MY RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS"....

There is something called....class and manners......

My daddy taught me there is a time and place for everything. You have need for a gun as a tool need to open carry out in the woods or behind the counter of your drugstore or while making a deposit in a bank or under such circustances as may be REASONABLE under the circumstances with DUE CONSIDERATION TO YOUR NEIGHBORS go for it...but to carry a gun openly in the tiny town of Mayberry where there hasnt been an armed crime in 27 years (O I know, it COULD/MAYBE/MIGHT HAPPEN, so might a meteor fall your head, break out the tinfoil!) just to show Mike and Emma Sheepowitz that by golly, you arent an EFFETE POLITICALLY CORRECT MAN, YOU EXCERSIZE YOUR RIGHTS, its no different than me sitting next to you at the Happy Hamberger Joint wearing a Tshirt that says "i Love Al Qaeda, all Americans are the Spawn of Syphilltic Donkey Drivers"....help your digestion????

So strap on the hawgleg Pilgrims, lets go out and show em!

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Old August 28, 2005, 01:01 AM   #36
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Wild

That's exactly why I would encourage open carry. If everyone saw it everyday, it wouldn't be an issue. It would become a "society norm" to see it, therefore becoming acceptable. At least in theory. I believe exposure (the good kind) is the key to "winning" this "war" we have against the "anti's".....
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Old August 28, 2005, 02:32 AM   #37
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If everyone saw it everyday, it wouldn't be an issue. It would become a "society norm" to see it, therefore becoming acceptable. At least in theory.
Well lets leave it at that...I'll go toss my fetus shirt on and hang out in your neighborhood If you see it everyday, it will be acceptable

Guess, we have different views of what should be a norm in 2005

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Old August 28, 2005, 06:27 AM   #38
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Yes, open carry should be encouraged, but it needs to be tempered with a little common sense and descretion on the carrier's part. Just because you can, dosen't mean that you always should.

As an Alaskan, open or concealed carry isn't an issue as both are legal requiring no permitting to do so. However, I won't carry open in an urban setting because I don't want the attention brought to myself. Also being a LEO I don't think it makes good tactical sense for me personally.

When I'm road trippin' I'll carry open because most folks along the road system couldn't care less and it's common to see others open carrying.
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Old August 28, 2005, 07:45 AM   #39
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Well put Wildalaska. Just because we can do something, doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
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Old August 28, 2005, 08:04 AM   #40
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I love OC.

I do it almost daily.

Do I conceal? Sometimes. I will conceal it going into church. Why? Because I want the little kids focusing on the message, not on the metal and plastic on my hip.

I carry open in an urban envrionment. I am young, (21), though I try to dress like an upstanding citizen and not a punk. I am however routinely underaged. It has made for some interesting moments.

HOWEVER! Not once have I ever had someone call the police. Not once have the police ever seen it and done anything more than nod their heads and continue on.

I have carried open into banks, into my vets office, into my job on payday to get paid (Ok, full disclosure, the business if owned by a woman who sleeps armed. She is an awesome gal.), into the downtown areas during the middle of the business day when lots of people were around, gas stations, fast food, family functions. You get the picture.

For starters, most people do not notice. The few that do, either do not care, or talk to me for a minute, and learn something. I keep a friendly demeanor, and try to leave a good impression on people.

THIS is the way to get people to equate OC with good guys. THIS is the way to get people used to it. THIS is the way to get soccer moms to realize we will protect their kids if something bad happens, and that we are their friends.

Now, do I worry about some BG snagging my weapon or just shooting me first because I OC? I do not. Why? Two reasons. For starters, BGs are not my intellectual peers. (They ain't too bright.) Secondly, as someone who loves to read news, read, hear stories, etc etc etc, I have yet to hear of the BGs doing this once. I have heard of cops getting THEIR guns taken, but I do not hear it happening to armed citizens. The reason for police to be at more risk than us is obvious: they spend their entire workdays either dealing with criminals, or looking for them. We do not. Simply by playing the odds, they get put into more bad spots than we do, thus they have higher odds of having their weapon taken from them.

Also, OC is comfortable, and provides easier access than most concealed methods of carry.

Somekid, forever OCing. (I love TN!)

Last edited by SomeKid; August 28, 2005 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Typos.
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Old August 28, 2005, 08:26 AM   #41
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Wild I agree with you...and I come from a background of life long gun collector and shooter of military and police type firearms,former class III machine gun dealer,20 year Tx peace officer,second chance vest save, and now an semi old fart CHL holder. I have carried in most situations(uniformed and street clothes) and even faught off attempted gun snatches. I am all for
anyone going armed, but open carry makes you a target...hell we have delt with folks that would kill you if they took a liking to the gun you had on.(this really happend to a uniformed security man that was working a bad neiborhood in Fort Worth, the bangers liked his colt python...so they just shot him in the back and took it, and admitted later under arrest that it was the only thing they were after) the ones to fear have no fear of your handgun . You are far better off in an urban setting with it just being your surprize....and unless you have had training(at least equil to the BG) to resist being disarmed by a thug that learned in prison how to take one away from you,you are in deep dodo . Just being able to shoot a tight group alone and straping on a pistol dosent prepare you in the least for what you could come up against.
and wearing it open, with situational awareness set at nose picking...rather than make you safer, it really has quite the opposite effect..you will gain the attention of someone that is far more practiced at being a preditor than you are in really dealing with real live bad guys.(this applies to police as well)
in open carry you really have to watch your back more than normal because the gun itself is a target....and BG's will seize any oppurtunity, anywhere.
whether its standing in line for movie tickets, standing in a store paying for gas...you dont know whats going on in the person behind you's mind.
This goes far beyond what the constitution says, or whether you allowed to therefore I will...it has to do with your safety and how you can while trying to increase it can actually decrease your chances. OC puts you in the same danger as a uniformed officer in a unexpected confrontation, plus more..as you may not have as much training,or the radio with the panic button, or backup on the way....or a nightstick and pepper spray to keep from getting your butt kicked when you cant legally shoot them(you can't shoot somebody that simply wants to bitch slap you)

Somekid...some BG's have very high IQ's, they simply dont operate by the same set of rules you do.....I started out working in the county jail for 3.5 years,and have seen all kinds . there are plenty of folks with college degrees behind bars. Being a sociopath and lacking a concious dont mean dumb in all cases. It does show you really haven delt with many bad people however. Not that I advocate that you go hang out in a bad part of town as an education...Im just saying dont be too sure of blanket statements.

Last edited by p99guy; August 28, 2005 at 09:42 AM.
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Old August 28, 2005, 08:33 AM   #42
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I agree that open carry should be legal. I also agree that open carry should be tempered with some tact and common sense.

Open carry could be taken to extremes. If you're walking around with a shotgun or scary looking rifle or three guns strapped on with the sole purpose of scaring people you're a jerk. I don't believe there needs to be criminal penalty just for being a jerk. But I think a jerk shouldn't be surprised when he's asked to leave the mall.

I wish we could remove the 2nd degree misdemeanor penalty for open carry in Florida. Or at least leave an exception for permit holders or make it a civil penalty. You shouldn't risk jail time if your gun is accidentally unconcealed.

danco:
Quote:
I've got no problem with a person exerting their RKBA, but there's a lot of incompetent, stupid people out there. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with, say, half the people at the mall walking around carrying guns...
Would you be comfortable with half the people in the mall walking around carrying guns concealed?

somekid:
Quote:
Now, do I worry about some BG snagging my weapon or just shooting me first because I OC? I do not. Why?... The reason for police to be at more risk than us is obvious: they spend their entire workdays either dealing with criminals, or looking for them.
It could be argued the reason you hear more stories of cops getting guns grabbed is because more cops spend more time carrying open. Also, take note you will be dealing with criminals if you ever have to use the gun you're carrying.
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Old August 28, 2005, 08:46 AM   #43
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Florida issues a Concealed Weapons and Firearms Permit. We can carry Stun Guns, Billy Clubs, etc, as well as handguns, concealed, but not openly. I too would like to see documentation supporting the claim that open carry would get me shot first. I think any State allowing concealed carry after required training and background checks should allow open carry also.
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Old August 28, 2005, 10:56 AM   #44
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I don't like the idea of open carry and would discourage it if someone I knew carried that way without thinking it through (not applicable because open carry is illegal in TX). It should be legal because the government has no legitimate interest in banning it. How am I supposed to vote in this poll?
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SomeKid
THIS is the way to get people to equate OC with good guys. THIS is the way to get people used to it. THIS is the way to get soccer moms to realize we will protect their kids if something bad happens, and that we are their friends.
How is a soccer mom going to distinguish between a good guy carrying in the open and some psychopath that is about to go postal? Another question is since when did it become your place to defend her kids? Are you a police officer? Read the laws on the use of force for your state. Most states have many restrictions on the use of force. Your are NOT a cop and your GUN or CCW does not give you those powers. I'm willing to bet you feel this sense of power when you walk around strapped and you like intimidating people. You were probably a school yard bully and might even have a Dirty Harry complex, just waiting for someone to go ahead and make your day... Punk! In Florida, the use of deadly force is only permitted when you have a reasonable fear for you life or that serious bodily harm will result if you do not use deadly force.


Progunner1957,

Great. So you read the Federalist Papers. You are now an expert on the thoughts of our founding fathers. What a crock of crap. Like people don't take things out of context all the time. Why are there so many denominations of churches even though they use the same bible? Why are there lawyers that argue against written laws (code law)? Why is there so much discussion about what an author meant in a book and what his message really was? Almost any form of communication is subject to a persons interpretations, no matter how clear it may seem.

The second ammendment states:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Now where does it say you have the right to carry openly and expect your fellow citizens to accept it?

Furthermore, remember that the forefathers, in their wisdom, knew that times change and set provisions for the constitution to be ammended. The most famous is probably the 18th and the 21st ammendments covering the use of alcohol. By stating you know exactly what they were thinking and not even considering how times have changed is either sheer ignorance, arrogance, or more probably both. Furthermore, your attitude that you could care less what the sheeple think reflects your lack of consideration for others.
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:18 PM   #46
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Stephen,

Chill with the condescending attitude....

The thing is, most of us would like to see it as the "Norm". Not everyone is out to **** Off other people because they can. The key here, for me at least, would to be able to see it as Normal in society. I equate this with the same deal about breastfeeding in public (I am all for it, but thats another subject). There are always exceptions to the rule.

What you say about times changing is exactly it. Lets see times change again.

As far as the "You Are Not A Cop". I believe everyone has a duty to look out for their fellow Americans. That's one problem with society today (remember, My Views). Everyone is on their own agenda. "Take two screw the crew", "All for me and me for me". Also Remember, Cops Are Equal to you and me. It is only a job.
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:35 PM   #47
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Trapp,

Police officers supposedly have special training. It is their JOB to enfore the law, not ours. I'm not saying we shouldn't help our fellow Americans, but remember that our guns and concealed permits only allow us to defend ourselves when we have a reasonable fear for our lives or of great bodily harm. That is quite different from playing police officer.

I pray that I will never need to use my gun and I don't go around looking for trouble. If trouble finds me, I am more than prepared to us it. If the situation is unclear as to whether someone is in danger, it is better not to act. When I took my concealed weapons class, the instructors used the example of a bunch of guys walk into a restaurant and draw their guns on a guy. If you pulled yours out, you may be pointing your gun at a bunch of cops making an arrest. Now if they walk up to someone and start shooting or if the guy has a mask on and is saying gimme da money, thats different. I'm willing to help out my fellow citizens if I have to but I'm not going to go looking for trouble because I'm armed.

As for breast feeding in public, that would have to depend on the breasts and the woman they are attached to. If they are ugly hags with ugly bags, I am all for banning breast feeding in public. I don't want to be scarred for life!
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Old August 28, 2005, 07:54 PM   #48
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What do you mean by telegraphed opinion anyway?
I meant it was easy to tell what kind of results you wanted by reading the options.
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Old August 28, 2005, 10:07 PM   #49
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In Florida, the use of deadly force is only permitted when you have a reasonable fear for you life or that serious bodily harm will result if you do not use deadly force.
Or the lives to others. Or to stop a forcible felony. I don't go looking for trouble, but it is totally reasonable to act in the interests of others in case they find themselves in trouble. Like the guy in the NM walmart.

I don't think anyone's talking about "enforcing the law". I take it to mean people are willing to help each other out if they find themselves in danger.

If I see someone who's drowning, I'll throw them a rope. Should I call a lifeguard? If I watch out for others while I'm at the beach, am I just a wannabe who's watched Baywatch too many times?
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Old August 28, 2005, 10:43 PM   #50
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stephen

Regarding protecting other people kids...

I would wager real life money that if you polled the members of this message board, you are among the few who is either too cowardly, or selfish to step in and protect the life of an innocent kid who is being say kidnapped for example.

I may only be 21, and I may have none of my own, but I understand the responsibility of being an adult. We ALL have a duty to protect children. Period. While I have no desire to go off half-cocked and shoot someone, if I was one hundred percent sure I was witnessing someone kidnapping a child, I would lend a hand, and leave the weapon in the holster unless it was needed. (The kidnapper was armed, and threatening anyone who came near for example.)

I WAS going to give you a more detailed response, and hit a few other points, but the schoolyard bully comment mixed with your previous posts has convinced me you are a troll. Keep waving that red flag, hope you enjoy your life.
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