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Old August 23, 2005, 11:13 AM   #51
artsmom
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You don't really judge the practicality of a cartridge by what is possible, but by what is probable.

At one time, the biggest bear on record was taken by an Alaskan Native girl with a .22 single shot, at arm's length in a berry patch, catching the bear unawares. The barrel was under six inches fromt the bear's ear when she fired. I am sure this girl didn't spend the rest of her life scoffing at anyone using a centerfire cartridge on Alaskan Brown bears, because their are plenty of stories of rimfire vs. big bear, most without a happy ending, unless you are the bear.

One of the biggest moose shot in Canada during one season was shot by a guide who had a rusty .30-30 with no front sight on it anymore. I don't think this condemns anyone who has a scope or front sight, because there are more misses and failures with unsighted rifles than successes.

Plain flat out, a .243 and a 7mm Magnum can both kill deer and elk, but they are not equal. A 7mm Remingon Magnum is going to give you better odds of success at longer ranges, windier days, and bigger animals. If you pluck off 400 pound deer at 900 yards with a .243 during a gale wind with surprising regularity, then you should be able to shoot 500 pounders at 1200 yards during a hurricane with the same fantastic results, unless a 7mm Remington Magnum intimidates you from shooting as well. It is bigger and faster, period. It drops less, drifts less, and gets their faster with more foot pounds. That doesn't matter most of the time, but it will matter some of the time.
Now, in some situations, the 7mm Remington Magnum will have to go to the back of the bus while a better suited cartridge for the task at hand is called upon, let's say pelt hunting coyotes at long ranges. Then the .243 will be the star.
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Old August 23, 2005, 11:21 AM   #52
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I second that^

+1 all the way around
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Old August 23, 2005, 12:00 PM   #53
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NO,NO,NO. a 55 gn HPBT fired from a 22-250 with a MV of 3500 fps is the ONLY acceptable round for pelt hunting coyotes at long distance. Thats it period (.).
Seems the debate will rage on for a while longer. Use enough gun, but not too much. Is that the answer?
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Old August 23, 2005, 01:38 PM   #54
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I officially say use whatever legal gun gives you the greatest satisfaction.

I always thought the 6mm Remington was a distinguished looking cartridge, and it took the first coyote I ever called and one of the biggest does I have ever shot. If I had the money, I would buy a second one, a Ruger.

Actually, I think I will be hunting with a H&R Ultra Slug Gun Hunter this year, as I will then have access to several pieces of public land closed to rifles and pistols. They sell them at Wal-Mart for $217, and I am just short a little over $200 of acquiring it
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Old August 23, 2005, 02:04 PM   #55
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Quote:
Use enough gun, but not too much. Is that the answer?
I think it is, it's just not a very precise answer. "Use the gun that's right for you , and for the hunting you do" would be my take on it - doesn't pin it down much better, really, does it?

The logical conclusion of saying there is no such thing as too much gun, and that the hitting power of larger magnum calibres can compensate for less than adequate shot placement, is that we should all be using artillery rounds. That way, even if our shot placement was off by a couple of yards, we should still have adequate stoppping power.

Clearly that is nonsense. Even the magnum brigade don't suggest using 50BMG or artillery rounds on deer, so they obviously do accept the concept of too much gun - they just set the bar a bit higher in terms of calibre than I would.

Now, if someone says to me that they prefer to use a 7mm or 300 Mag on deer, and if they can shoot it accurately, I will say to them "de gustibus non est disputandum"* and happily accept it. The problem I have is with people who CAN'T shoot these calibres properly but still insist on using them. There are plenty of reasons why people would do that: bigger must be better, it's macho to use a magnum, more power can't hurt, the salesman/gun magazine told them they needed one, plus the whole collateral damage argument. And it makes a REALLY BIG BANG when it goes off, so perhaps if I just point it in approximately the right direction the deer will drop with fright.

Here's a thing I've noticed, here in the UK. Over the last few years, sound moderators have become widely used on deer rifles. Guess what? People who have fitted them say they improve accuracy. By reducing the report (and to a large extent the recoil) of their full bore rifles to something approximating a .22 rimfire, they are finding them gentler to shoot and thus shooting much better. That's true even at the lower end of the calibre spectrum, down at the .243 end of things. There is a culture shock effect from using a sound moderator, however. The rifle doesn't SOUND powerful enough to kill a deer. Thankfully, ballistics are unaffected.

There is a conclusion to all this, and here it is: recoil and muzzle blast affect everyone's field shooting, perhaps to a greater degree than they would recognize or acknowledge. Deer are not particularly difficult to kill, and magnum power is not essential to do the task. Bullet placement is key, and for most people this is facilitated by using a rifle which doesn't kick hard or boom too loudly.

Use enough gun, but not too much. And enough gun might be less than you think.


* To save you looking it up:
De gustibus non est disputandum - There's no arguing matters of taste
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Old August 23, 2005, 03:56 PM   #56
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Deer Caliber

Hunted quite a bit with a Son-in-law, he used a Remington
autoloading 30-06 I'd have given my eye teeth for. I used a Mini-14 in .223.......Everything either of us shot at dropped either on the spot or very nearby.

Now skinning them was a different proposition, those he killed with the 06 were a nasty mess in the shoulder,heart lung area to skin out. Mine were clean but I prefer a .30 caliber whether its a 30-30, 30-40 Krag, or 30-06 and I will add Sks 7.62X39 .
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Old August 23, 2005, 06:44 PM   #57
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What I see here is some confusion as to the meaning of 'over rated'. Inappropriate, mis applied, under or over gunned does not mean 'over rated'.
Many cartridge examples offered in this thread are more about using the wrong gun in the wrong place, than about being held in higher esteem than a given cartridge merits.

Now the .35 Remington is over rated. I could not tell you the folks down South that think the Remmy has mystical killing power.

Using a .300 WinMag on whitetails is over gunned. There is a difference.

I think placing the 30-30 in the 'over rated' category is certainly incorrect also. Where I hunt, and keeping within the cartridges performance envelope, I find that its just about ideal.
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Old August 24, 2005, 07:06 PM   #58
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"Recoil Phenom"

If recoil is such a problem, why not try the modern day version of a "kick pad", the LIMBSAVER? It works for me!!
TWK
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Old August 24, 2005, 08:00 PM   #59
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to UK

Uk, You and I seem to be saying the same thing only differently. I do not say the 243 win is the ideal cartridge for every game animal or occasion. I do however say, that in the hands of the right person it will do all that is asked of it. I have heard through out this thread terms that should not be in a true riflemans or sportsmans vocabulary. Margin of error? will not penetrate a ham? 400yds in a gale? Drops too much? Me thinks more time should be spent knowing when not to shoot than hopeing we have enough gun in our hands to compensate for our short comings in the precision bullet placement dept. No offense meant just my two cents Trapper
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Old August 24, 2005, 08:30 PM   #60
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Anything less than a 460 Weatherby is to light for deer.
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Old August 26, 2005, 03:13 AM   #61
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30-30

It was the only choice worth anything...
about 100 years ago.

It has the well-earned reputation of killing more deer than any other caliber...
When there were more deer per square mile and NO LIMITS and the antlerless kill was a free-for-all.

The rifles chambered for it are cheap...
So there were more of them.


Three generations have told stories of magical shots at exaggerated ranges.
Definitely the most overated
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Old August 30, 2005, 09:47 PM   #62
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Quote:
Anything less than a 460 Weatherby is to light for deer.
oh c'mon you sound like a wussie here just buy a .50BMG
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Old August 31, 2005, 01:05 AM   #63
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The most dissapointing deer calibre I can think of is the .243. To me it is neither a brilliant varminter nor deer rifle and so, like a lot of compromises does neither particularly well.

Don't get me wrong- this round will perform in skilled hands, but it is not the ideal that it was touted a when it was introduced, infact I think the 6mm Remington that it killed off was a better round.
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Old August 31, 2005, 12:44 PM   #64
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Too similar

Lawyer Daggit--Agree w/you re the .243 being a compromise and needing skilled hands. As to its killing off the 6mm Rem: They were almost identical, and one of 'em was not going to survive. The one that did was the one that got the better press and advertising. Not to say that the 6mmRem was in any way inferior.

I believe the exact same thing will occur between the .300RSAUM and the .300WSM. They are almost identical, and it will be a publicity contest between the 2 as to which survives, not a contest of which is the better round by a gnat-whisker.
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Old August 31, 2005, 07:50 PM   #65
bugmantrap
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daggert

I've been hunting just about anything the USA has to offer for about 50 yrs now and i've seen a pack of rifles and calibers come and go. Believe me when I tell you press has nothing to do with it. We, as hunters sportsmen and women, and shooters are generally a pretty astute bunch of people. You can pull the wool over the eyes of some of us but the cream always raises to the top. Thats why the old standards like the 06 and 270 are still alive and kicking. They work. There is some of the new stock out there that will stick around for awhile but if it does'nt work say good bye. good bye 244 rem,220 swift,6mm,7x57 and the like. The press did'nt kill em (EXCEPT MAYBE THE SWIFT) The shooting public did by not buying rifles chambered for them.
Want a great deer rifle? Try the 257 Roberts sometime if you can find a DECENT rifle built for it. Want an overrated caliber for the AVERAGE shooter? Buy a belted boomer and see what they can hit with it. The 243 win is a great caliber for young shooters or those of light stature because they shoot it so well not because it shoots through oak trees and kills deer in the next coutny. It is extremely accurate as a varmiter and will be here for a long time to come
My Two Cents Trapper
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Old September 7, 2005, 05:13 PM   #66
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You all crack me up saying the 30-30 is over rated.I guess it depends on where you are.When I take my old Marlin out,the older folks never notice and the younger ones tell me I need to get a 30-06 or one of the latest screamin' magnums.
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Old September 7, 2005, 05:59 PM   #67
Lawyer Daggit
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Smokey Joe have you used a 7x57- one chambering full loads- not the light loads sold in the US? because so loaded it is the ballistic twin of the .270.

It is a calibre that predates the .270 and lead to the development of the 30-06.

IMHO it is an exceptional calibre and one I will never be without.
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Old September 7, 2005, 11:25 PM   #68
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7x57...hmmm...

Lawyer Daggit--Cain't say as I've ever shot or even seen a 7x57. Would be happy to try one, but as I'm currently involved with load development in .357 magnum, .45ACP (the newest ctg. for me), 8x57mmJS, .300WSM, .243Win, 7.62x39, and .30-'06, my plate is kinda full for a brand-new rifle/cartridge @ the moment. Oh, forgot .50 cal. blackpowder.

While we're at it, I'd love to try one of Wildalaska's pet 6.5mm Swedes. But there again, I ain't gonna have one myself any time soon.

Come to think about it, at the range, I will gleefully shoot anybody's anything, just for the experience of it.

And of course, if I woke up and found a 7x57 in bed with me, I wouldn't kick it out...

Let's face it: I'm a hopeless case. Will be trying new guns/loads as long as I'm on the green side of the sod.
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Last edited by Smokey Joe; September 7, 2005 at 11:28 PM. Reason: The usual--had another thought.
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Old September 10, 2005, 03:05 AM   #69
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LawyerDaggett

Agreed. The .243 has been left behind for that reason.

However, a lady I knew about a "hundred years ago" (an excellent shot) placed 4 rounds of .243 in the heart lung zone (about and 8-10" group) in a running mule deer at about 100 yds. It ran at least 200 yds after the first hit.

I think maybe skill doesn't help the .243 very much.
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Old September 24, 2005, 08:36 AM   #70
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The most over rated has to be Weatherby's 300 MAG. Marketed as super fast and powerful yet a real elk wounder. I've personally guided a number of clients who could not shoot very well with their new Weatherby rifle. I'm certain Weatherby rifles have their place in the world of big game hunting. But not in the hands of an inexperianced and recoil-shy elk hunter!!
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Old September 24, 2005, 12:24 PM   #71
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Jack

This makes the shooter overrated...
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Old September 24, 2005, 01:52 PM   #72
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Pointer:
The clients were simply responding to Weatherby's marketing. I still feel it is the Weatherby cartridge that is over rated. Most of these easterners would kill their elk a lot faster with a 7mm-08 and Nosler Partitions. Good kill shots are made with accurate placement of the bullet(s).
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Old September 24, 2005, 08:29 PM   #73
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The most Over Rated deer calibre would have to be the.....

Who honestly cares? It's the same as asking "which is better...semi or revolver"

From 100 yds zero with a Rem 7400 30-06 2" grps./with a Winchester 94 30-30 the same/with a Remington .270 the same/with a .243 the same

I zero them all at 100 yds because of my tree stand locales. I've never posted out farther than that on any shots. Maybe 1 out of 20 deer have made it more than 10yds from impact. This is well over 100 deer and 30 seasons.

I also killed a deer from 40yds out with my .357mag one day, when the .270 had a feed jam.

So I don't think any reasonable calibre is underrated or overrated, just the shooter
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Old September 26, 2005, 07:24 PM   #74
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There's probably not much point in my chiming in since everything seems to have already been said on the subject. But, I guess I was just born talkative.
The thing is, most of the talk seems to imply that deer hunting, ergo deer calibers, is a single, monolithic subject. It's my impression that eastern deer hunting is different than piney woods deer hunting, western plains deer hunting, and mountain deer hunting - and that's just in the US. There are deer to hunt all over the world. The 30-30 Win appears to be nearly ideal for eastern deer hunting, but would be about as useful as a Snicker's bar in south Texas. Magnum rifles would be similarly out of place in thick woods or on smallish deer. My feeling is you should research the type of hunting you plan to do, obtain a reasonable caliber and gun for the task, and then practice until you are really deadly in any foreseeable conditions; and if you are not sure of your ability to put the critter down quickly - let it slide. By the way, I think I have at least one of every caliber (good and bad) mentioned. I'm pretty sure any of them would do the job within their limitations. If it works for you and your style of hunting, then it's not overrated. My pick for overrated: the 25-20; good plinker, but a lousey deer cartridge.
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Old September 27, 2005, 12:35 AM   #75
Lawyer Daggit
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I think we need to define what we mean by 'recoil' I once shot two near identical Brownings- one with BOSS and the other without it.

I think what we call recoil involves three things:

RECOIL- the rearward and upward push of the fired gun
NOISE- the 'bang'
BLAST the amount of blast- flame coming out of the muzzle.

I do not respond much to recoil but I do not noise and blast- consequently I did not like the gun fitted with the boss as the one without it.
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