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Old September 8, 2005, 01:10 PM   #51
leadcounsel
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Get both in one package

Savage has an overunder .223 over with 12 gauge (or is it 20 gauge) under for around $500 at Walmart. This way you have the option at all times.

First, discard your images of a massive gunfight in your home like in the movies, where you are stalking around the house looking for trouble. The best plan if you know there's an intruder is to equip yourself with gun, phone, body armor, ear protection, and eye protection, get your family safe and lock your door and find a defensive or conceal position in your room with the gun trained on the door. Then quietly call the police and wait.

I am a 2nd Amendment believer to the full extent and an avid gun owner, have a CCW, carry regularly, wear threat level IIA vest regularly, and believe S**T can hit the fan. For disturbances in the middle of the night, I reach for my Glock 35 .40 with a 15 rd clip and flashlight, phone, vest and electronic ear protectors. I can bullseye regularly at 15', it has near 90-95% 1 shot knockdown with hollowpoint Corbons, low overpenetration risk, and I can squeeze off several accurate shots in a moment. AND, the sound is tolerable. For a situation where I need more firepower (say an unlikely raid of some sort, drug dealers, whatever), I have a trusty Rem 870 home defense 12 gauge with the first few shots in 00 Buck and the latter shots in Breneke KO rifled slugs, with a sidesaddle and 6 more followups. If there's a real anarchy situation and I'm in a real home invasion type situation like looting or whatever by a gang such as in NOLA situation, I'll break out the AR15 and 30rd mags for range, accuracy, and number of shots. Under ALL of these circumstances, you really need to have a vest and a steel or kevlar (steel is $20, kevlar is $200 and both do the same job) helmet if you expect your assailant is armed. While the gun is the most important, a vest and ear protection are very important; more important than the time spent on which caliber is better.

Let's talk about the LIKELIHOOD?. Scenario 1, hearing strange noises in the house and needing a gun, I'd chose a reliable, accurate, maneuverable, with hi capacity of shots, and good take down and not overwhelmingly loud or without alot of overpenetration gun and caliber. For me that's a .40 5" handgun which will take care of 99% of the situations. I'd bet the majority of your garden variety home defense situations are by lightly armed prowler or burglar or a burglar with a gun (assume anyone in your home uninvited means you deadly harm though), who wants your property and not a gun fight or murder. This is the most likely situation which warrants having home defense strategy. Think ahead about different strategies for dealing with this problem and also different barricade or escape routes if you must escape.

Scenario 2, needing the firepower of a 12 gauge to stop a large and very aggressive threat immediately that won't be stopped by a accurate handgun. Can't really think of any realistic situations myself, so it's unlikely but possible. Maybe a situation where you are outnumbered, the threat is larger or more prepared or better armed or has body armor. In this scenario, it's either a hitman or a gang. It's so far fetched (for me at least) as to almost discount it or if it happens you won't survive anyway but you'll go down fighting. A hitman or gang will likely overpower you and that's the end. However, since it COULD happen, I still do account for it and have my .40 Glock ready within 2 seconds and my 12 gauge ready and available within probably 20 seconds. Bottom line is that if the threat intends you dead and that's their sole purpose, unless you're an X- Ranger or Navy Seal, you'll likely be in a pine box.

A .223 or 12 gauge w/ slugs would be primarily useful for defending your property perimeter, probably from an elevation, from multiple targets. It's useful because it's accurate out to a couple hundred yards and even great close up if necessary and the ammo is plentiful and the mags are large. But in this situation I see it as probably total anarchy, where LEOs are unavailable and one of two things will happen. Either the BGs will recognize your threat and move on, or they'll want you dead.

But, seriously, in such a total lawless anarchy EOTHAWKI situation, your odds of survival no matter what weapon you have are so low because clean water and food and medicine (from the many diseases we see in NOLA) will be scarce and the primary concerns, not "which weapon shall I pick from my arsenal." However, if you stockpiled you may need to defend your supplies. If complete chaos in your neighborhood, city, state, or the nation is your concern and lawlessness is rampant, we have BIGGER problems, and the overall survival rate will be dismal due to rampant starvation, disease, dehydration, and violence. If you are in a home seige situation and are shooting raiding bad guys, they'll likely just burn your house down during the night and move on to another target, or shoot you from beyond your range with a hi-powered 7mm or .300 magnum! Either way you'll lose and die like the rest of America in such a grisly situation. The type of gun or ammo you have will be irrelevant. Thankfully, this situation is unlikely. But it still COULD go down if SHTF. Again, it isn't very likely but worth considering. So, stock up on food, water, a good pistol, medium range gun, and long range gun (e.g hunting rifle) and plenty of ammo for all.

Also, I don't see your idea of taking out bad guys with hostages as at all realistic. Shooting a bad guy with your kid or wife as a hostage is completely irresponsible and dangerous and has legal consequences. And imagine missing and hitting your family! Let the professionals handle it. I don't think that a hostage situation in your home is very likely either, except in the movies. Burglars aren't there for hostages. Hostages occur in bank holdups, domestic situations or terrorist situations, which are all unlikely at my house. If you have multiple bad guys raiding your home for hostages, they are going to outclass you in firepower and sophistication and someone wants you dead! No offense, but if someone wants you dead, they'll succeed and it won't matter if you have a 12 gauge or a .223. You have to sleep sometime. Unless you really made a powerful enemy, stop concerning yourself over this.

Now, let's talk about your home defense weapon choice. First is SIZE. A pistol is a better choice because you can operate it with one hand and operate other things (eg a phone, light switches, door knobs, flashlights, pick up kids, open a window, hand cuff a subject, or struggle with a bad guy with a free hand). Also, moving in confined spaces (hallways, doorways, small rooms, etc) is very hard with a shotgun or rifle. You simply cannot maneuver around corners, through doorways, open closet doors, or use the phone with a rifle.

Second is the very real threat of overpenetration with .223 or 12 gauge. A .223 will travel for 500 yards, whereas a .45 won't travel that far because it's slower and fatter and preferably hollow point. If you fire a .223 or 12 gauge slug and it goes through your wall, you could kill someone a block away(buckshot is probably the best choice of load for a shotgun in the home defense scenario). A handgun with hollowpoint defense ammo will expand and stop rather quickly, so it's less likely to hurt neighbors.

Third, have you ever FIRED a shotgun or .223 inside a confined space without ear protection? It's a deafening BANG and could disorient the shooter. Everyone talks about "take down" or "penetration." Of course you need to immediatley stop a bad guy threat, but what about the very real aspect of giving yourself a concussion or fear of pulling the trigger again due to the noise? Shooting a big gun in confined spaces will do significant and likely permanent damage to your ears (and your family) and immediately make you dizzy, and could blur your vision, and interfer with problem solving (all important). So, if you're planning on a shoulder cannon to stop a threat in a confined space, also consider ear protection.

If you MUST have a big gun, get the shotgun. While a 12 (or 20) gauge in 00 buckshot is a great home defense gun, it's likely overkill for most situations and too bulky and loud to be pratical or useful in most rooms of your home. I would never never never fire a slug or a .223 in anything other than total anarchy or war where I wasn't very very very concerned about hitting whatever is behind my target due to innocents death and legal problems. And, a shotgun is very pratical because a rifled slug will kill a human target at 100 yards and is unmatched at close range versatility and stopping power. I'm not advocating breaking the law because right now short shotguns are illegal, but in a lawless society you could also saw down the shotgun and put a pistol grip on it to make it more concealable. AND, ammo for a 12 gauge is VERY plentiful and cheap. Nearly 1/2 of American homes have 12 gauge ammo and it's found in EVERY sporting goods store that sells hunting gear.

As I said though long guns are not practical for urban or interior home defense because they are unweildy, require two hands, and are loud, and the slug and .223 WILL overpenetrate. I recommend having longguns ultimately because I do and they are cool and available "just in case" but I recognize that if I needed to use them I'm in over my head and need LEOs.

Just get a reliable and accurage handgun in a medium caliber and use premium defense loads and practice alot with it. The best "take down" is a well placed shot with any caliber. Next, get ear protection and a vest and a helmet. A $400 vest, $100 ear protection, and $500 gun beat a $1000 gun every time. You'll be fine for 99.999999% of home defense situations.

Last edited by leadcounsel; September 9, 2005 at 12:35 PM.
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Old September 8, 2005, 09:48 PM   #52
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What would you need 43 rounds of anything for ? Unless you have REALLY long halls where accuracy is a must I agree with the slug suggestion. I personaly would take a shotgun.
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Old September 9, 2005, 09:33 AM   #53
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No offense, Leadcounsel but you sure have a lot of urban mythology in your post. I'm too lazy to take it apart line by line but I would just caution new folks to take what you say with a great deal of pinches of salt.

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Old September 9, 2005, 10:46 AM   #54
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Please take the time Glen Meyer

This is a site for information and learning...

I won't take offense to anything I'm wrong about. So please, for anyone's sake, tell me where I'm wrong and we can discuss. Maybe someone will learn something that could save his/her life.
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Old September 9, 2005, 12:16 PM   #55
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To take a load off good sir Mayers shoulders, for one, hollowpoints clog and act as FMJs a good amount of the time in walls. Two, a .45 or 9mm can travel well over 500 yards. Three, pistol bullets, .223 and slugs will all penetrate about the same through walls, to the point of it not making a difference what you use. In fact, heavier bullets like pistol or slugs will usually penetrate more walls, although marginally so. Four, any of them can kill neighbors a block away.

Also, buckshot will still kill a family member a wall or two away.
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Old September 9, 2005, 12:41 PM   #56
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Good points well taken

So, let's assume that there is an equal risk of overpenentration and danger to innocents with 9mm, .40, .45, .357, .223, and 12 guage slugs and buckshot.

Given your argument, do you take a rifle or handgun for "normal" interior urban home defense?

To alter my comments slightly from before, it really depends.

Now, as I indicated in the earlier post, I think that you SHOULD just take a defensive position and lock the door to the room and call LEO and wait with your gun trained on the door to give the BG a surprise. If I were to barricade myself in a room and was only training the gun on the one entrance, I'd take a defensive position and either rifle would be fine. I think this may have been the REAL question that the original poster was asking.... so my answer is to take the shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge due to it's versatility with loads and ranges and cost (you can get a fantastic Mossberg 500 or Remi 870 for under $300, have the price of a good .223).

The pistol is better, say, if you do have to leave to go retrieve the kids or if you are inclined to investigate. I strongly believe you need a free hand and maneuverabilty. I'll take the handgun in all but the barricade or permiter defense situations. I'll give several good reasons: Maneuverability, noise, number of shots and quick reload (over the shotgun only), and having a free hand.

I can maneuver easier through my house, have 16 shots of .40 in a 30 oz. package with fast reload, and have a free hand for other tools (e.g. phone, flashlight, door knobs, handcuffs, extra magazine, light switches, wrestling with the bad guy, carrying kids or babies, rounding corners, etc.). If I don't have ear protection, the pistol is far more tolerable to shoot (e.g. noise) than any .223 or 12 gauge.
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Old September 9, 2005, 02:04 PM   #57
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I agree.

In my apartment, if I knew they hadn't gotten in yet (example: recieved threats from gangs, hear rustling outside) I would take a shotgun or .308, if I didn't know I would take a pistol.
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Old September 9, 2005, 02:36 PM   #58
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Leadcounsel has obviously studied his Ayoob very closely! I'm an LFI grad, too, but I don't take Massad's opinions as gospel.

"The best plan if you know there's an intruder is to equip yourself with gun, phone, body armor, ear protection, and eye protection, get your family safe and lock your door and find a defensive or conceal position in your room with the gun trained on the door. Then quietly call the police and wait."

Good advice, but if I called the cops every time I heard a noise in my house, I'd be on the Mesa PD's "paranoid" list in short order, and they'd take an hour to get here if I had a real emergency. Sometimes you need to go take a look. Yeah, it's not "tactically correct" in the Ayoob school, but it's reality.

"For disturbances in the middle of the night, I reach for my Glock 35 .40 with a 15 rd clip and flashlight, phone, vest and electronic ear protectors. I can bullseye regularly at 15', it has near 90-95% 1 shot knockdown with hollowpoint Corbons, low overpenetration risk, and I can squeeze off several accurate shots in a moment. AND, the sound is tolerable."

Great. My AR carbine holds 30 rounds in the "clip," can regularly hit a dime at 15 feet, and has a flashlight attached to it. I don't know what .223 "OSS" percentage is with Marshall and Sanow, because their work is totally discredited. I'm willing to bet a .223 hurts more than a .40, though. .223 has lower dangerous overpenetration risk than .40, as reported by FBI, Gunsite, etc. .223 is extremely easy to shoot fast and well, moreso than any pistol I have ever fired.

You state you have electronic hearing protection. Why is the noise of a .223 carbine an issue, in that case? Anyway, I'm in the National Guard and have talked to many Iraq war vets. None were deaf due to firing M4s in urban environments, and they fired far more rounds than any home defender will. None were stunned, disoriented, confused, or suffered a concussive head injury due to the noise.

"Let's talk about the LIKELIHOOD?. Scenario 1, hearing strange noises in the house and needing a gun, I'd chose a reliable, accurate, maneuverable, with hi capacity of shots, and good take down and not overwhelmingly loud or without alot of overpenetration gun and caliber. For me that's a .40 5" handgun which will take care of 99% of the situations."

For me that's a 16" AR. It's more accurate than a pistol, just as maneuverable, has a 30 round mag (I download to 28), hits harder than a pistol, has reduced penetration with the right ammo. It is louder than a pistol, but I think that is a non-issue, as I mention above.

"Scenario 2, needing the firepower of a 12 gauge to stop a large and very aggressive threat immediately that won't be stopped by a accurate handgun. Can't really think of any realistic situations myself, so it's unlikely but possible. Maybe a situation where you are outnumbered, the threat is larger or more prepared or better armed or has body armor."

Ummm...a .223 rifle performs far better on armor than a pistol or a shotgun. Buckshot is pretty much useless on armor. Slugs are also defeated by most armor, though the blunt trauma to the recipient may be severe.

"Also, I don't see your idea of taking out bad guys with hostages as at all realistic. Shooting a bad guy with your kid or wife as a hostage is completely irresponsible and dangerous and has legal consequences. And imagine missing and hitting your family! Let the professionals handle it."

I agree that it is unrealistic. However, it is a remote possibility, and I would be far more comfortable taking a hostage shot with a precise, shoulder-fired weapon (read: rifle) than a hard-to-shoot pistol or a scattergun.

And what if the "professionals" aren't around when you need them?

"Now, let's talk about your home defense weapon choice. First is SIZE. A pistol is a better choice because you can operate it with one hand and operate other things (eg a phone, light switches, door knobs, flashlights, pick up kids, open a window, hand cuff a subject, or struggle with a bad guy with a free hand)."

Yes, let's talk about SIZE. I just measured my 16" AR from the tip of my nose to the muzzle. It was 23 3/4", in a squared-up CQB stance. I then measured the same distance with a 5" 1911. It was 23 1/4" in a Modern Isosceles stance. Difference in length when both are in a firing stance: a whopping 1/2"! I bet the distance is even shorter with a bullpup like the AUG in question, but I don't have one to measure.

My AR has a Spectre tactical sling, and is a light-barreled carbine. It is easily operated one-handed if I need my left hand to operate something or carry a child. I notice the guys in Iraq manage to drag their wounded buddies (full grown men in 60 pounds of battle rattle) to safety. I bet most of us here could manage a seven pound carbine and twenty pound infant.

If you have to go hands-on with an intruder for some reason, where will you put your pistol? Maybe you have a holster attached to your body armor, but holstering while simultaneously fighting him off will be fun. As Massad says, "I shall wait for you here." With a tactical sling, I can just drop the rifle onto the sling and pound the snot out of the guy, or better yet I can flatten him with a buttstroke to the head. Try that with a Glock.

Do youhave cuffs attached to your armor, and do you have the training to use them? Handcuffing with no backup is foolish, and truly a job for the "professionals."

"Also, moving in confined spaces (hallways, doorways, small rooms, etc) is very hard with a shotgun or rifle. You simply cannot maneuver around corners, through doorways, open closet doors, or use the phone with a rifle."

Tell that to the guys who are doing all those things with M4s and M16A2s in Iraq this very minute.

Moving in confined spaces with a carbine is relatively easy if you spend some training time on it. It's just not a big deal. See nose-to-muzzle measurements above.

"Second is the very real threat of overpenetration with .223 or 12 gauge. A .223 will travel for 500 yards, whereas a .45 won't travel that far because it's slower and fatter and preferably hollow point. If you fire a .223 or 12 gauge slug and it goes through your wall, you could kill someone a block away(buckshot is probably the best choice of load for a shotgun in the home defense scenario). A handgun with hollowpoint defense ammo will expand and stop rather quickly, so it's less likely to hurt neighbors."

.223 is more likely to break up into less-dangerous fragments when traveling through typical building materials. This has been repeatedly shown in tests by various government agencies like FBI, as well as in the private sector at places like Gunsite.

Also, please note that the vast majority of shooters are more likely to get good hits with the rifle, versus missing more with a pistol. If you make hits on the intruder, chances of bullets sailing through walls are greatly diminished regardless of caliber. Also, hits reduce the number of rounds required to end the fight, as compared to misses. The gun that is easiest to shoot well is the safest for all concerned.

You have probably noticed the trend away from 9mm subguns to M4s among police tactical teams. This sea change would not be underway if .223 was as dangerous as some gun magazine writers make it out to be.

"Third, have you ever FIRED a shotgun or .223 inside a confined space without ear protection? It's a deafening BANG and could disorient the shooter. Everyone talks about "take down" or "penetration"...Shooting a big gun in confined spaces will do significant and likely permanent damage to your ears (and your family) and immediately make you dizzy, and could blur your vision, and interfer with problem solving (all important)."

See above comments on Iraq vets. No one I've talked to suffered immediate ill effects from firing 5.56mm rounds in confined spaces, nor have I seen mention of it in AARs I've read. By the way, have YOU, Leadcounsel, ever fired a .223 in confined quarters under combat stress?

This link shows some dB levels for various guns: http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml. Please note that the 9mm pistol shows 159.8 dB, the .45 ACP pistol 157.0 dB, the 18" 12 gauge 161.5 dB, and the 18" .223 rifle 155.5 dB. The .223 was actually quieter than anything but pocket pistol rounds, the low-pressure .45 Colt, and smaller-bore shotguns.

"If you MUST have a big gun get the shotgun."

Agreed that shotgun power is excellent. However, shotguns are heavier, bulkier, and longer than a carbine. According to the above chart, they are also louder. Shotguns perform poorly on armored opponents. Shotguns recoil far more than .223 carbines, making them slower on multiple opponents. Pump shotguns like the 870 are more difficult to operate than semiauto carbines. Shotguns hold much less ammo.

"As I said though long guns are not practical for urban or interior home defense because they are unweildy, require two hands, and are loud, and the slug and .223 WILL overpenetrate."

None of which is actually true. The carbine is, for practical purposes, only 1/2" longer than a pistol, does not require two hands if it has a tactical sling, is apparently quieter than a pistol (and even if it isn't, no big deal), and shows less dangerous penetration due to the fragmentation effect.

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Old September 9, 2005, 03:06 PM   #59
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Many good points Mike and I'm glad you took the time to write them.

First, let me say that I agree if I were in Iraq in an urban environment and needed a gun that performs very very well in close and distant quarters, moving in and out of buildings, fighting unknown numbers of opponents, some armored and some not, I would hands down chose an assault rifle style carbine. In fact, as I said, I do own a .223 in the Bushmaster configuration, probably similar to yours. So, in a EOTWAWKI scenario, as I said, that .223 and I will be best friends.

Now, your home in the middle of the night isn't really Iraq, is it?

But, maybe you're right. I'm not dead set on the handgun anymore, and your numbers are compelling.

As for maneuverability, I completely disagree with your statements that a 24" carbine is as good as a pistol in close quarters. Sure, if you take a weaver stance the lengths may be the same, but that's not required of a pistol. I'm thinking of where you are rounding a corner, walking down a hallway with doors on either side, etc. If the perp closes inside your barrel and grabs the 24" rifle, you're in trouble regardless of whether you have a sling. If the perp closes on me with a handgun, I have free hand to hold him back while I fight. Your point is well taken that your gun couldn't necessarily be taken from you, whereas a pistol could be. Duly noted and IS A BIG advantage of the .223. I will rethink my position. Not sure about the original poster, but I think most average men could hold off another male attacker with a free arm long enough to squeeze off a disabling shot against the perp, which is my main point. A proper defensive maneuvering stance will shield the gun from being grabbed, unlike a rifle which is presented and opportune to being grabbed. Or, if you have to turn around quickly, I suspect it's quicker with a pistol.

Like your rifle, my Glock also has a flashlight accessory on the rail. Not sure about the wisdom of using it though (only point your gun at what you want to destroy, and it makes you an illuminated target...), but that's another debate. I already conceeded that a .223 has more ammo than a handgun.

As for GI's dragging wounded buddies, I'm not a GI and don't have that training. Nor do any of them carry pistols because, unlike the civilian world, pistols are all but useless in a combat zone. They don't have the 1. Range, 2. Penetration of a rifle.

As for overpenetration, you admit that a pistol or shotgun won't penetrate body armor but a .223 will. Then you said that a pistol and shotgun WILL overpenetrate walls more than a .223. Which is it? Either the .223 is better at penetrating or worse. It's not selective. Generally a level IIA vest will stop a .40, it takes a level III or IIIA or IV to stop a slug or rifle, depending on caliber. If barriers are anything like vests, I'd extrapolate that drywall, wood, etc. will stop bullets similarly to vests. The bullets hit and expand as they attempt to pass through. E.G. a .40 will stop much faster than a slug or a .223.


As for noise and indoor shooting. I have not shot indoors without hearing protection for the very reason that it is loud. I have shot outdoors with various guns and load and believe the shotgun and .223 to be about equally painful on the ears, with a handgun like a 9mm or .40 to be significantly less. Sorry if my ears disagree with the numbers you gave. Indoors I think it would be very tramatic on the ears to shoot a rifle, less so with a handgun.

As for cuffs, yes I am trained to use cuffs and have cuffed many people in a prior life... the plastic ones are the cheapest and best. Lie the subject face down with arms and legs outstretched, instruct him to place his hands behind his back, tie the cuffs with your free hand with HANDgun trained on him. Simple with a handgun. Not sure with a rifle.

Point taken about the 12 gauge being heavier, less ammo, and slower and less accurate. Maybe the .223 is better for home defense. I don't have any idea if thugs in armor are rare. Do you? I really don't know. I suspect they are rare. Regardless, per the Beltway snipers, a single .223 is deadly in 7 out of 9 shots (didn't 7 die and 2 live?). I suspect a shotgun is moreso. Either is fine and I think we're splitting hairs.

My main contention is maneuverabilty if you need to scout around inside the home. If I'm locking myself in a room, I'll take a rifle and make due with either the .223 or shotgun.

At any rate, I think we're really splitting hairs about all of this.
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Old September 9, 2005, 03:07 PM   #60
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Thats bull**** Mike. You don't go around corners and down stairs and through doors in full isoscles. The pistol is way more manueverable than even an SMG. Its also far more flexible and can be used more easily with one hand. Its harder to disarm someone with a pistol, as you have less leverage, and its easier to use pepperspray or something in the left hand.

Bottom line, more manueverable, compact, and easier to use one handed.

Its easier to navigate a residence with a pistol, you have greater situational awareness because you don't have to put your cheek on a buttstock, you can swing your head back and forth and its easier to get back to sight picture.
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Old September 9, 2005, 05:05 PM   #61
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As for cuffs, yes I am trained to use cuffs and have cuffed many people in a prior life... the plastic ones are the cheapest and best. Lie the subject face down with arms and legs outstretched, instruct him to place his hands behind his back, tie the cuffs with your free hand with HANDgun trained on him. Simple with a handgun. Not sure with a rifle.

----------

There is not a trainer of civilians I know of that suggests a civilian try to cuff a BG.

Leadcounsel: Get on the ground.
BG - turns and starts to walk out the door.

Now what!

Also the penetration discussion is screwed. You haven't studied the tests of 223 rounds in houses.
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Old September 9, 2005, 05:52 PM   #62
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Mike,

Fine, you WIN on the penetration. After thinking more about maneuvers and the possibility of being jumped or needing peripheral vision, I'll take the pistol for scouting work in the house.

BG handcuffing is situational. I want to defend my life and my home (and future family).

BG is an immediate threat, he'll be scrapped from the walls.

BG a less immediate threat, he'll get ordered to the ground and cuffed. I would have zero problem cuffing a BG laying prone on the ground, because I would have a one handed weapon pointed at his vitals. A person would be an idiot to resist. If he resists BANG, problem solved. How many people disobey a civilian pointing a gun at them?

IF, in BG's judgement he turns and leaves, problem temporarily solved. Give a description to the police and let them deal with him. I want to protect myself from threats, not murder people when it can be avoided. Highly unlikedly he'll return, don't you think?

Finally, I live in Colorado where a home owner CAN shoot to kill anyone they discover unlawfully in their home with ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY from criminal prosection or civil liability. The law does not require that the intruder even be armed, and the law has been interpreted as allowing a homeowner to shoot a prone or disabled intruder, and would likely even be read to allow the homeowner to shoot an intruder in the back if necessary. You just can't follow him outside.

Scenario: I catch intruder armed with non-gun violent weapon. I tell him to surrender. He tells me where to stick it, and I stick it in his face. It's that simple. Or I keep him for the cops. Or I let him walk. My choice, not his.
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Old September 9, 2005, 08:14 PM   #63
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Para Bellum, . . . I'm going to play the other card here for a minute.

I understand we are talking "Home Defense", . . . not Tikrit or Bagdhad.

In a HD scenario the shotgun is a far better weapon, especially if you have trained to reload between firings. In the long run a good semi auto shotty will hold 7 or 8 rounds, . . . a stock sleeve can hold another 6 or 8 and a forearm sleeve another 6 or 8.

We are talking about doing in a determined bg or 2, . . . at most 3, . . . or holding out till the cavalry (LEO's) arrive. This is not Pork Chop Hill or Guadalcanal.

Staying with the HD idea, . . . virtually any LEO will tell you that anyone who would attempt to clear a modern house alone, . . . is like the guy playing his own lawyer, . . . he's got a fool for a client. Don't do it, . . . LEO's get paid to do it, . . . can travel in pairs, . . . and have far more equipment and training than we will ever get.

Play the coward, . . . hunker down in the bedroom, . . . make him/them come to you, . . . a 12ga load of 00 buck in his face will definitely spoil his whole day, . . . and you got 18 more rounds waiting for any follow up bg.

Even if the turkey is wearing super threat body armor, . . . it don't cover the face. Slugs will also hurt him bad with or without armor, . . . while the .223 can be absorbed and he can still come get you.

Oh, . . . yeah, . . . that is my plan and you can use it without any royalties.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old September 9, 2005, 10:06 PM   #64
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Folks, if you are a new person to the home defense business, please get some legitimate training before listening to a good deal of the tough guy baloney posted here.

You might not believe folks in an argument - but get trained.
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Old September 9, 2005, 10:35 PM   #65
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I hope I'm not the "tough guy" you're referring to.... I'm advocating bunkering down in the locked bedroom, calling LEO, and training the gun on the door and waiting. Also, I'm advocating body armor and ear protection....

Glenn, it seems to me that you're the one advocating going in a room by room sweep with an AR-15...

Which is more Rambo and dangerous?
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Old September 10, 2005, 07:51 AM   #66
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Dwight- ever tried to reload a shotgun under stress? You can reload
all day long with two hands busy (Where does your cell phone or flashlight go?) if you want to close the gap to the 5.56 carbine.

"Shooting into the face" with buckshot isn't possible with most combat shotgun chokes even at 10-15meters. Why limit yourself to that?
What about stray buckshot pellets? Personally, I would hate to kill a family
member because I can't account for each bullet I fire.

And as far as the handgun is concerned- all handgun calibers are **** poor stoppers! "Garanteed 90% one shot stopping power"... now you can achieve that with a nuclear device- but not with a firearm.

Quote:
As for overpenetration, you admit that a pistol or shotgun won't penetrate body armor but a .223 will. Then you said that a pistol and shotgun WILL overpenetrate walls more than a .223. Which is it?
If barriers are anything like vests, I'd extrapolate that drywall, wood, etc. will stop bullets similarly to vests. .
Its a huge difference if a bullet has to penetrate several layers oft soft
fabric or hard material like plywood, bricks, etc. In the first case, 5.56 will penetrate, whereas in the second case the bullet will start to tumble after
the first few inches and desintegrate.

Quote:
The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.


The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
http://www.olyarms.com/?page=223articles
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Old September 10, 2005, 11:03 AM   #67
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Leadcounsel - I didn't advocate anything. I said that you were wrong on a myriad of technical details and tatical suggestions.

I said:

No offense, Leadcounsel but you sure have a lot of urban mythology in your post. I'm too lazy to take it apart line by line but I would just caution new folks to take what you say with a great deal of pinches of salt.

-----------

Thus, for you to give detail advice so full of misinformation is not really useful. I suggested folks study or train so that they have correct info.
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Old September 10, 2005, 11:36 AM   #68
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Points well taken Glenn, but I suspect you edited the post I responded to....

Anyway, good discussion.

I'll still use the .40 pistol for scouting, but likely won't be scouting if I think there is a real threat. I'll take a barricaded defensive position with a vest, electronic ear protection, and a shotgun or .223 trained on the door and LEO on the way.
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Old September 11, 2005, 11:58 AM   #69
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What a joke - you may note that the forum marks if you edit posts. Geez -

Oh, well - on the Internet no one knows if you are a dog. Or a poser.
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Old September 13, 2005, 05:40 PM   #70
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FWIW, I have an 870 loaded with 8-pellet Tactical buckshot and slugs sitting in the same closet next to a scoped Mini-14 which is loaded with 55-grain TAP ammo. I also have a Glock 30 loaded with 230-grain HSHPs in the same closet and a Glock 21 loaded with the same rounds and a weaponslight attached next to my bed.

Why limit yourself to one tool? As long as you know how to use them and when to use them, the more options I have the better off I will be. JM2CW.
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Old September 13, 2005, 05:52 PM   #71
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For anyone on the fence about HD weapons and bullet penetration, check out the following link to drywall penetration.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

The conclusion is that .223, .40, 9mm, and Shotgun all ridiculously overpenetrate many many sheets of drywall stacked upright 10' apart.
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Old September 14, 2005, 04:34 PM   #72
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But in this test the rifles and handguns penetrate all 12 sheets of drywall, a 12 gauge 00 buck penetrates "only" 8 sheets.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
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Old September 14, 2005, 05:40 PM   #73
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I think using a rifle in an indoor urban environment is a bad idea. YOu can do ballistics all night long..but in my opinion there is just way to much chance of it going through a wall killing a relative or taking out a neighbood. Same for slugs.. Personally if you expect that kind of assault on your house wouldnt it just be better to line the floorboards with semtex and blow the whole place sky high? Lol just a thought.
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Old September 14, 2005, 09:22 PM   #74
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Just wanted to clear up a little misguidance about shotguns, and their accuracy. People most often believe that shotguns loaded with slugs are accurate only up to 20 yards or so. And that perhaps, the greatest ones can produce accurate groups at 50 yards. This is not at all true. I live in Indiana. I am an avid hunter of many things including whitetail deer. Indiana is a shotgun state. You cannot hunt with centerfire rifles. My choice in arms is a Remington Model 1100 with the Vent Rib 28'' modified barrel for squirrel and such. I used an ithaca with a 30'' full choke for the longest, but am more impressed with what the 28" modified does using propper ammo, such as winchesters supreame line. For deer, I use a Remington Model 11-87 with a full rifled slug barrel. Recent innovations made by many manufactures, Remington at the top I would say, have made shotguns be able to give rifle like performance at the longest distance any hunter aside from those that hunt the vast plains ect, would need. Just to give you an example, check out the spec's on Remingtons New Core Lokt Ultra Bonded. Now there's your defense round. http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotsh...rsabotslug.htm
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Old September 18, 2005, 01:19 PM   #75
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Leadcounsel,

thank you for your time and compehensive post.
Quote:
Shooting a bad guy with your kid or wife as a hostage is completely irresponsible and dangerous and has legal consequences. And imagine missing and hitting your family!
That, however depends. I already had a situation which makes my scenario pretty realistic. Just imagine not intervening and watch your family or co-workers being killed (a maniac stabbed my business-partner into the head several times until the knife broke 10 months ago).

Quote:
To take a load off good sir Mayers shoulders, for one, hollowpoints clog and act as FMJs a good amount of the time in walls. Two, a .45 or 9mm can travel well over 500 yards. Three, pistol bullets, .223 and slugs will all penetrate about the same through walls, to the point of it not making a difference what you use. In fact, heavier bullets like pistol or slugs will usually penetrate more walls, although marginally so. Four, any of them can kill neighbors a block away.

Also, buckshot will still kill a family member a wall or two away.
right. Thats's why I choose Remington EFMJ (these always expand) in pistols and RUAG Special Operations as .223 ammunition. With these I am confident not to overpenetrate. Same applies to EMB-Handgun ammo if the soft target is hit first. That's what I see as a great advantage over buckshot...

Quote:
Let the professionals handle it
What makes you so sure that "the professionals" you think of are better trained or more capable?

Quote:
I understand we are talking "Home Defense", . . . not Tikrit or Bagdhad.
What is the difference, really? Distances and number of assilants may vary everywhere. And every peaceful neigbourhood can become New Orleans (or LA as the riots went down) quickly.

Quote:
Staying with the HD idea, . . . virtually any LEO will tell you that anyone who would attempt to clear a modern house alone, . . . is like the guy playing his own lawyer, . . . he's got a fool for a client. Don't do it, . . . LEO's get paid to do it, . . . can travel in pairs, . . . and have far more equipment and training than we will ever get.
I'd never clear my house. But I'd go defend my family members anytime. And the assumption that the LEOs who might come have fare more training and better equipment is something I can't confirm in my case. I also wouldn't rely on that for yourself. Go compete in IPSC, IDPA or whatever there is. Compare your skills to the LEOs who compete. Some LEOs are extremely good. But these are less than 1%, I assume.
If there's time to wait for SWATS negotiators and hostage rescue teams, I would wait of course. Because if so, there is neither the need nor the chance to immediately intervene. So personmal intervention would be foolish.

But what if there is no time to loose? What if there's just a mad pitbull outside and still kids out at the playgroud? What if you need to be quick an surgical? And what if you couln't forgive yourself for having waited untill the LEO came...
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