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Old August 12, 2005, 01:20 PM   #26
Para Bellum
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I'm sorry but most of Kojak's post isn't true. If you want to believe it Para Bellum, you are displaying the naivite I mentioned earlier. I'm too lazy to go point by point, so it's your life.
Are you trying to be insulting or is my English not good enough to understand the true value of your lines quoted above?



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Too much gun choice and not enough training, IMHO.
How do you know?



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Have you fired either in something approaching a tactical situation? Not punching the square range?
There is a real chance that you are not the only one with military and/or LEO and/or civil professional armed background and real-life firearms experience. Think about it.
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Old August 12, 2005, 01:21 PM   #27
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Get the shotgun and buy 10,000 or so shells with the money you saved.

Don't those Steyr AUG's have crappy triggers, anyway?
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Old August 12, 2005, 01:45 PM   #28
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12 ga autoloader....

Famous line from terminator....I would go with the 12 ga as well. If you fear the Hostage situation, I think it would quickly de-esclate once you cycle your 12 ga shotgun.
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Old August 12, 2005, 02:04 PM   #29
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*Hank Hill Voice* Oh Lord....
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Old August 12, 2005, 02:27 PM   #30
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As the former lead instructor for my agency, which issued the AUG, let me add my bit. One problem with the AUG (other than cost), is the high sight line above the bore. At very close ranges, given your hostage rescue scenario, this is a problem. Also, the 'rear' ejection can be a problem if you are, say, right handed, but the only cover is to your right. Both of these issues can be overcome with training.

While I own a AUG and a shotgun, I would go to a handgun for interior defense. I live a long way (2 miles) off the road, so a rifle is fine for exterior defense in my case. In fact, many police entry teams have gone to handguns for entry, for greater manuverability inside structures.

I think that the funds to buy either of these long guns may be better spent on more handgun training.

And I do believe the AUG is the finest 5.56 rifle extant.
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Old August 12, 2005, 03:11 PM   #31
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Sleuth,

thanks for your input. The high sight-system also botheres me, but I can go for the AUG-Z with a picantinny-rail and mount a low scope. Unfortunately I can't reach the steyr-webiste at the moment - I'd have posted a picture...

Struggling with that decision back and forth, I also came to the conclusion that indoors I'd trust my handgun. Accuracy is well enough and I sure don't have the problem with too different sight/barrel axises. And, it's on my hip 24/7.

But I think I'd still get the Remington or a Benelli autoloader for my wife as a first home-defense gun. So, the next decision, Benelli or Remington....

So, thank you all for your time and thought! Stay safe and sound.
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Old August 12, 2005, 03:18 PM   #32
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The problem is not the sight base. Since there is zero drop to the stock, your facial structure will dictate how high the sight will have to be. You just cannot get a really low sighting plane with an AUG.
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Old August 12, 2005, 05:06 PM   #33
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Parabellum, you accepted as truth statments that were factually wrong about shotgun usage. That was the basis of my opinion. I will say again that if you make a decision on incorrect information - I'm not convinced.

Shotguns at close range (house) do not have a higher probability of a hit.

223s vs buckshot haven't shown that buckshot is convincing a better round.

223s are only suited for 50 yards - where did that come from? Police are switching away from shotguns. You don't see major military issuing shotguns except for special purposes. It's crap.

Take a handgun and you will be able to rescue hostages at close range. What is the basis of the differential use of handgun have to do with a shotgun vs. AR debate? You can make a selective shot with a AR easier than with a shotgun where you have to worry about pattern. Are you really suggesting that carrying a shotgun, you will really transition to a shotgun just to make a precise shot? Take makes no sense.

Since these problems were obvious to me, I suggested your acceptance of the shotgun selection to not be the wisest.
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Old August 13, 2005, 03:30 PM   #34
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Glen...

...I think we are misunderstanding each other. I did not "accept as truth statments that were factually wrong about shotgun usage...". I did agree with some of the points kojak was making, and I still do. Here's his post again:

Quote:
A shotgun can utilize buck shot, very high probability to hit even if it's dark.
true.

Quote:
You just have more options, you could even identify the felon to make sure you don't shoot someone of your family and then switch of all light.
I don't quite get that, but

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Buck shot on the felon and it's over.
that's close to truth again...

Quote:
A .223 offers advantage in ranges above 50 yards.
true...

Quote:
Not suitable for home defense.
I doubt that...

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Just take a handgun as a backup and you'll be able to rescue hostages at close ranges.
Thats what I fully agreed to. Shotgun and buckshot for heavy duty and a handgun fur surgical work. Makes perefect sense to me...

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Stopping power of a shotgun is way better than .223!
Mhm... placement....

Thank you for your time and thought, Glenn and thanks for your concern about my possible misinterpretation of Kojak.
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Old August 13, 2005, 04:29 PM   #35
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If you want to use a shotgun for home defense take it to the range and pattern it at ranges from 5. 10, 15 and 20 yards WITH THE BUCKSOT LOAD YOU INTEND TO USE!. You will be surprised at the distances required to get a significant buckshot spread,
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Old August 13, 2005, 08:29 PM   #36
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Yeah I'm tired of gunstore commandos claiming that beginners should buy a 12 gauge because you don't even have to aim with it.
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Old August 13, 2005, 08:46 PM   #37
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Yeah you can see proof of this myth being dispelled on the boxotruth website I believe.
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Old August 13, 2005, 09:13 PM   #38
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In a home defense situation against a hostage taker, I think my first choice would be a 12 guage slug. I think the slugs will offer better terminal ballistics after penetrating intermediate cover such as wives or children (luckily both of which are replacable... and luckier still, I have neither so I can get away with classifying them as expendable and not having to sleep on the couch ).

In all seriousness, however, I think you're on the right track with the handgun for interior defense. A shotgun or rifle (or both! ) make a good addition to the bedroom, though, incase you need to barricade yourself in there and wait for help.
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Old August 14, 2005, 05:59 AM   #39
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Low scope mount on new Steyr AUG-Z no problem...

the steyr-site is up again. Here you can see, that with the new AUG-Z you can mont sights pretty close to the barrel axis...

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Old August 17, 2005, 04:27 AM   #40
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If you want short range precision ( "hostage situation" ) and less noise than .223 why not a 9mm/40S&W carbine like the Beretta CX4 with a Red Dot scope?

It's compact, well-built, extremely precise.
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Old August 17, 2005, 07:17 AM   #41
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I think he wants to buy the Steyr AUG-Z. In my opinion he should. I wouldn't waste the money, but if he wants to, he should. If you want accuracy at close range, it's hard to beat a Wilson Combat or Kimber or Ed Brown. But hey, I like the racking of the shotgun. It's as much of a deterrent as it is effective.
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Old August 17, 2005, 11:45 AM   #42
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Para Bellum - sorry if I came off like a crank and snotty. I can get too preachy at time.

Who cares why? I should be more polite when I give advice, which is worth what you paid for it.
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Old August 17, 2005, 12:10 PM   #43
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I just read in an AR-15 magazine about using the .223 (AR carbine specifically) for CQB, and they tested a standard round that wouldn't penetrate interior walls - seems like it would be just right for home defense, and allow more options at longer ranges too.
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Old August 17, 2005, 02:31 PM   #44
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Para Bellum - sorry if I came off like a crank and snotty. I can get too preachy at time.

Who cares why? I should be more polite when I give advice, which is worth what you paid for it.

Glenn,

no problem at all. I behave the same somtimes. Since I am married, I don't get away with it as often as I used to, though...


back to the guns. I am still struggling. Since I do have a double barrel 12ga, I tend more towards the .223. And there is another alternative that interests me:
The Remington 7615 pump-rifle with 15 rounds of .223:

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

It's not a semi-auto, but I guess pretty reliable and (much) cheaper than the AUG....
one more option to increase my dilemma
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Last edited by Para Bellum; August 17, 2005 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Remington 7615P, .223 pump action rifle
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Old August 28, 2005, 12:56 PM   #45
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I own a Remington 870, AUG-Z and OA15A-M4 and have had training by TacticalResponse- and I say, go with the 5.56.

The 5.56 beats the shotgun in terms of one handed operation, shot to shot speed, hit probability, recoil, ballistic vest penetration, mag capacity, reloading speed. With 75gr. TAP ammo, it is not far behind the shotgun in terms of wound ballistics.
The M4 may has an edge in mag change speed, ergonomics and when shooting from the wrong shoulder (left barricade shooting), but the AUG-Z has an edge due to its compactness. I had the barrel cut back to 16" and re-profiled. Now that is a CQB package, which still has power to reach out to 150m.

Envision yourself coming home and being attacked on your entrance into your home. You wrestle with the bad guy and your wife/girlfriend comes to your aid. Would you rather outfit her with a shotgun or AUG/M4?

Envision yourself walking up to a noise and having to gather your children in a safe room. Would you rather have the cumbersome, heavy, two hand operated shotgun or an AUG?

Yes, noise & blast is a problem, but when one avoids a muzzle break and stores electronic hearing pro nearby, it can be overcome.

The only bad thing is that weapon mounted flashlights aren't allowed here.



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Old August 28, 2005, 01:05 PM   #46
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Cato: It looks like there are two separate optical sights inline on the rail on your gun? Is that true? If so, why is it configured that way?
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Old August 28, 2005, 01:11 PM   #47
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Hi! That is the new Aimpoint 3x behind an Aimpoint M3 red dot sight. The 3x basically gives you the ability to reach out farther and is QD. On the other pic there is my S&B Short Dot 1.1-4x20 mounted.
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Old August 28, 2005, 01:30 PM   #48
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Cato: Hm! very cool - I didn't know that you had that much flexibility with these optics - nice idea!

Best,
Caleb
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Old August 31, 2005, 12:24 PM   #49
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The big reason LEO have gone away from shotguns or at least buckshot is liability. You typically have 9 pellets and a wad thats allot to account for in an urban enviroment. It was not that the shotgun did not kill people.

Both are good choices for various reasons. Its nice to have a chioce.
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Old August 31, 2005, 02:50 PM   #50
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It's not only that, but carbines are more tacticool now.
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