The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 7, 2005, 01:46 PM   #1
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Home defense longgun: Remington 11-87 (12ga) or Steyr AUG-Z (.223)?

In my search for the optimal home defense longgun I came to the following choice:

1. Remington 11-87, 18"



2. Steyr AUG-Z


Which of these would you prefer?

The .223 offers more accuracy e.g. in hostage situations. It also offers more capacity (43 rds). And with the right ammo, overpenetration is not an issue.

The 12ga offers more destructive/stopping force and energy, but also less capacity and no accuracy for hostage or human-shield situations.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 02:27 PM   #2
powderedonuts
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2005
Posts: 108
You plan to shoot at someone when they are holding a hostage or human shield???

Interesting.
powderedonuts is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 02:46 PM   #3
USP45usp
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2000
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,428
Para,

It sounds like you really want the Steyr:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/.../t-175054.html

I personally would go with the shotgun but that is just me.

Wayne
USP45usp is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 03:21 PM   #4
Stiletto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 9, 2005
Posts: 388
I'd rather have an FS2000...hopefully when the things finally come out, 20" heavy barrels will be made available too.
Stiletto is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 08:51 PM   #5
rnovi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 401
Me personally, I would go with the 11/87...but then again I live in Cali.

BTW, Slugs are plenty accurate at close range. Consider loading a slug every other round, or perhaps having a slug on a butpad sling? Hell, for that matter go ahead and load a full tube of slugs.

I'm pretty sure you're not concerned with overpenetration if you are considering a .223, so the slugs should be fine.
__________________
Robert N.

"Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"
rnovi is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 10:25 PM   #6
TomNash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2004
Posts: 118
Parabellum - Don't know if you caught these threads when I posted them, but they might give an idea of the relative power of the 12 gauge vs. the .223rem cartridge.

12 guage :

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=175590
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=155650

.223 remington :

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=175604
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=173924

WRT the guns, I really would not worry about the home invasion/hostage taking situation. I think that the person who would utilize this tactic might reasonably be lumped into the 'dedicated fighter' category - those who will not reason and can only be stopped. Like a member of Team Jihad or a severely intoxicated person. The likelihood of running into one like that and them having the presence of mind during the situation (because most criminals are under stress too) to take a hostage seems somewhat, low-percentage. Anyhow, I like the round that splits the blocks into three pieces for those special cases...

Tom
__________________
Tom Nash
Gainesville, FL
TomNash is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 10:36 PM   #7
vitesse9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2004
Posts: 340
I don't understand,

why you would need 43 rounds of .223 for home defense? Hostages?

I'll take a 12 gauge, some 00 buck, and a revolver to back it up. I think 99% of your home defense situations (actually inside the house) will be handled very nicely with a shotgun. If the invader grabs a member of your household and you are contemplating taking hostage rescue shot, all I can say is that you'd better have practiced that shot under stress before you play SWAT. I don't think the added accuracy of a .223 rifle would puff out my chest enough to risk killing a member of my family. If it has come to that, it might be time to put your gun down . . .
vitesse9 is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 10:46 PM   #8
Lawyer Daggit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Posts: 1,181
I would go with the shotgun- my own house gun is a 12 gua s/s. But it reads like you want the Steyr.

Hostage recovery is a job for the experts- I would leave it to them. There is a lot of psychology in respect to that type of operation.
Lawyer Daggit is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 11:20 PM   #9
CarbineCaleb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2004
Posts: 2,745
I would opt for something with less Blammo! A pistol chambered carbine - either a lever action carbine in .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum, or else a semiauto carbine in 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP.

10 shots, if you can place them, which you sure can with a long gun at room distances, should be enough for anything. I think more of applying force, rather than unleashing it.
__________________
“Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.”
Niels Bohr
CarbineCaleb is offline  
Old August 7, 2005, 11:27 PM   #10
yorec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,324
Home defense ranges... Shotgun is plenty accurate, even for "hostage recovery" shots. Use slugs and 00 buck.

.223 works fine. Loud. Plenty of power. Lotta bullets - ammo count really neccessary?

IMO flip a coin or just get the one you like better. Then do what really matters - train with it until you're good. Then train some more. (Much more important than which of the two you get)
__________________
What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

My site - stop by n see what I'm all about... Yes, there is gun stuff.
yorec is offline  
Old August 8, 2005, 12:34 AM   #11
Whitefalls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 166
Um... how many home defense situations require sniping a bad guy away from a hostage?

I'm not tryin to be rude... I just think the most common home defense situation is a smash and grab job, but I'll admit I'm certainly not even close to an expert.

I'd personally prefer the shotgun.
Whitefalls is offline  
Old August 8, 2005, 07:49 AM   #12
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
yea, reiterating the intention above not to be rude, it's not rainbow six. the shotgun is a heck of a lot more practical. an AR is nice for intimidation factor, but that's about where its utility ends for home defense. i'd opt for a shotgun with buck or slugs in a heartbeat.
bclark1 is offline  
Old August 8, 2005, 10:59 AM   #13
progunner1957
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2004
Location: USA - east of the continental divide
Posts: 924
Of the two choices, I'd go with the 11-87 for home defense; I am currently using a Remington 870 express w/00 buck in that role.

Of course, buy the Steyer just because it is one seriously neat rifle and .223 selfloaders are great fun to shoot!!
progunner1957 is offline  
Old August 8, 2005, 11:22 AM   #14
foghornl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,355
A lot depends on YOUR situation...

If you home is centered, or way in the back of say a couple of hundred acres, then yes, the rifle is probably the better choice.

In my case, it is only 20 yards to the street from my front door, so first up is the 1911-A1, followed by the Maverick 88 12-Ga pump.

If I run those dry and have to go to the Most Serious Artillery, then the US Rifle Cal .30 M1 comes up.
__________________
Load your weapons and 'Stand Ready'. It will be a bumpy ride.
foghornl is offline  
Old August 8, 2005, 02:52 PM   #15
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Thanks a lot for your time and thought!

Quote:
You plan to shoot at someone when they are holding a hostage or human shield???

Interesting.
What would you do if an armed criminal enteres your home and stands close to your family members or even directly threatens to kill or hurt them?


Quote:
Parabellum - Don't know if you caught these threads when I posted them, but they might give an idea of the relative power of the 12 gauge vs. the .223rem cartridge.
Thanks, thats was very good information.


Quote:
why you would need 43 rounds of .223 for home defense? Hostages?
Excrement happens. Murphy's law.
I already had an intoxicated maniac in my office. He stabbed a businesspartner in the head several times until his knife broke. My businesspartner luckily survived. It took him 7 surgical operations to still not fully recover. I'd rather be prepared if excrement happens again or even worse. The bad guy btw is in a mental institution for indefinite time. He keeps contacting us from his psycho-prison and one day, he will be released...


Quote:
all I can say is that you'd better have practiced that shot under stress before you play SWAT. I don't think the added accuracy of a .223 rifle would puff out my chest enough to risk killing a member of my family. If it has come to that, it might be time to put your gun down . . .
I do, don't worry. Unfortunately I have a reason to do so (see above). You mention a tough decision. Keep in mind that you give all chances away once you put your gun down. But, that is a very personal and situation-specific decision nobody could answer in advance. What you can think about in advance is, what would be the best alternative and which gun would give you the best chances to choose from.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 8, 2005, 08:53 PM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,689
Train with the one you pick. Either will work but training is essential. Too much gun choice and not enough training, IMHO.

Have you fired either in something approaching a tactical situation? Not punching the square range?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 9, 2005, 12:28 PM   #17
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Accuracy against destructive power

Quote:
Have you fired either in something approaching a tactical situation? Not punching the square range?
If so, I wouldn't post it publicly. I hope you don't mind.

the question I am trying to post here is:
would you prefer the accuracy of a .223 against the destructive power of a 12ga (both semi-autos), given that
- a .223 ovepenetrates less than a .357 Mag with the right ammo;
- a .223 offers 1.700 joule of energy (triples a .45 handgun)
- a 12ga is unbeaten in destructive power at short ranges, offering 5.000 joules (10 times .45)
- a 12ga offers multiple hits with one shot,
- 12ga slugs would surely overpenetrate,
- you cant accurately and selectively shoot bad guys who are close to good guys (which you can with the .223).
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 9, 2005, 01:52 PM   #18
yorec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,324
Oh, so you don't really want advice, but are just looking to start another .223 vs. 12 ga thread? Lol - never mind.

Glenn stated my position better than I did with one sentence:
Quote:
Too much gun choice and not enough training, IMHO.
Either gun (or caliber if you want to boil it that way) comes with limitations and possibilities that thier operator needs to be aware of and understand. That is the most useful thing these kind of threads do - bring those things to light so they can be studied.

But the race between these two types of weaponry is close enough that I don't think it matters which you choose - just what you do with it afterward. Pick the one you like best...

Then study it and its limitations and possibilities. Master it and when those limitations and possibilities crop up you many have a chance to work around them...

As for you current list of "limitations and possibilities:"

"- a .223 ovepenetrates less than a .357 Mag with the right ammo;" *** unless you need/want penetration, then you should load a different type of ammo
"- a .223 offers 1.700 joule of energy (triples a .45 handgun)" *** Energy is relative and worthless if you can't hit your target.
"- a 12ga is unbeaten in destructive power at short ranges, offering 5.000 joules (10 times .45)" *** See previous possibility.
"- a 12ga offers multiple hits with one shot," *** And multiple misses - besides at close (HD) ranges those several projectiles act as one...
"- 12ga slugs would surely overpenetrate," *** Unless you really want/need penetration, then they're a great ammo to select.
"- you cant accurately and selectively shoot bad guys who are close to good guys (which you can with the .223)." *** Huh? At close (HD) ranges those several projectiles act as one... and a slug at thirty feet or less (HD range) would certainly be as accurate as a .223 if the operator and equipment is top notch...

Anything can be argued by anyone, but real trainning and practice require a choice and commitment. Choose one and go with it - master it and its limitations will become less and it's possibilities greater.

YMMV...
__________________
What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

My site - stop by n see what I'm all about... Yes, there is gun stuff.
yorec is offline  
Old August 10, 2005, 04:29 AM   #19
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Quote:
Oh, so you don't really want advice, but are just looking to start another .223 vs. 12 ga thread? Lol - never mind.
exactly. given a home-defense / innocent bystanders close - situation.

Thank you all for your worries about my marksmanship.
Be assured, I hit what I fire at.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 10, 2005, 05:55 AM   #20
kojak
Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 98
"Be assured, I hit what I fire at."

A shotgun can utilize buck shot, very high probability to hit even if it's dark.

You just have more options, you could even identify the felon to make sure you don't shoot someone of your family and then switch of all light. Buck shot on the felon and it's over.

A .223 offers advantage in ranges above 50 yards. Not suitable for home defense. Just take a handgun as a backup and you'll be able to rescue hostages at close ranges. I'd prefer training with slugs though.

Stopping power of a shotgun is way better than .223!
kojak is offline  
Old August 10, 2005, 12:07 PM   #21
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
kojak
I guess you're right. The shotgun for the heavy work and if I need to be surgical, I can still do that with my Glocks.

Thank you for your time and thought.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 10, 2005, 09:02 PM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,689
I'm sorry but most of Kojak's post isn't true. If you want to believe it Para Bellum, you are displaying the naivite I mentioned earlier. I'm too lazy to go point by point, so it's your life.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 11, 2005, 06:06 PM   #23
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
Concur with Glenn, but what do I know? I have a Steyr 223 & a 12 gauge shotgun readily accessible for home defense.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old August 11, 2005, 06:17 PM   #24
CobrayCommando
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2004
Posts: 1,631
Nobody mentioned a 30 caliber with softpoints. Anything from an M1A to a levergun in 30 30 will do, and with softpoints it beats out a handgun, .223 and rivals or exceeds a shotguns destructive power.

Has about the same recoil as a 12 gauge, a little less for an M1A and the 30 30.
CobrayCommando is offline  
Old August 12, 2005, 01:02 PM   #25
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,689
Like Tim, I have a 223 and a shotgun for home defense. The former has tritium sights and a Surefire. That's what I go for first.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14158 seconds with 7 queries