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Old July 26, 2005, 04:41 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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Conceal Carry in other states

Texas and most other Southern states (except Alabama and I think one or two others) as well as several Western states like Arizona, Wyoming and Colorado all have reciprocity agreements that allow you to carry concealed in their states legally. However, suppose you are driving through a blue state like Illinois or something. You need to take off yoru gun, unload it and put the ammo and gun in two seperate locked devices. You are now defenseless.
Or, if you do not have a concealed carry license at all, you are defenseless,

HOWEVER, in both of these cases, what if I did this: I own a black powder 1851 Navy .36 caliber ball and cap revolver. What if I loaded that and put it in between might seats? The law DOES NOT RECONGNIZE these as firearms. So it would seem I would be legal in carrying one of these in my car in any state right?

Or am I wrong.
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Old July 26, 2005, 05:06 PM   #2
JN01
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While a cap and ball revolver probably isn't classified the same as a modern firearm it is still considered a deadly weapon in most places. Carrying one where your permit is not valid will get you locked up (especially somewhere like Massachusetts)
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Old July 26, 2005, 08:39 PM   #3
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It's still considered a firearm in IL. The definition of a firearm in IL is: 430 ILCS65/1.1
"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or excape of gas; excluding, however:
(1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun or B-B gun which either expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter and which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second or breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;

Therefore, even a .22 caliber pellet gun is considered a firearm.
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Old July 26, 2005, 11:25 PM   #4
Doug.38PR
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IC. Well that's interesting to know about illinois but I wasn't especially talking about that state alone but travel in general to all states. I guess the definition is different in different states. I know in Texas, and the federal government it is not treated as a firearm. That's why you don't have to do a background check when you buy one.

On another note about ball and cap revolver not being considered a deadly weapon....deadly weapon can mean a lot of things. My pocket knife is a deadly weapon, heck my belt can be a deadly weapon, as can a hammer or a screw driver. So if I can get in trouble for carrying "a deadly weapon" then we are all in a heap of trouble because half of the common items in your car or even on your person can be considered deadly (that's why many courthouses make you leave your pocketknife in the car and why the Captiol in Washington makes you leave your car keys and unlock control with them because "it can be used as a detinator "
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Old July 26, 2005, 11:56 PM   #5
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Doug, i know what your sayin here. I think it would be a great idea if you knew the laws in every state that won't recognize your TX permit so you would know wether or not that option of cap and ball would be open to you. I know it sucks to not have your permit recognized in certain states you have to travel through. I can carry in all southern states except TX and AR with my AL permit. i wonder how i could try and get that changed. Can anyone share how states come to recognize other states carry permits. I'd like to try to get that changed so I could carry to more states. i don't really care about carrying in AR but I have family in TX, and would like to be able to carry there.
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Old July 27, 2005, 01:16 AM   #6
Doug.38PR
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Payne,
I'm surprised Texas and Alabama don't have reciprocity agreements. Arkansas is kinda weird, we have one with Arkansas but Louisiana, like Alabama, doesn't even recognize each other's permits. I don't think Mississippi does with Arkansas either. I heard it said by a gunsmith in Louisiana where I have family that the reason is that Arkansas is liberal in regard to the right of self defense. According to the smith, in Arkansas you can't kill someone in self defense. You have to retreat and run. Only if they have you cornered can you legally shoot them (I have a hunch that was something that came about when Clinton was Gov. My dad, who is from Jackson Mississippi stressed to me that Arkansas used to not be that way). In normal every day states such as Louisiana, Texas and Alabama you can legally kill a criminal in self defense or in defense of your home family and property or of others.
I've heard it said that in Louisiana you can carry in your car without a permit because the Louisiana state consideres the car part of your home.
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Old July 27, 2005, 06:17 AM   #7
ISP2605
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"Well that's interesting to know about illinois but I wasn't especially talking about that state alone but travel in general to all states. "

Fact is, there is nothing "in general" pertaining to all states. Each is different. You specifically mentioned IL and used a specific example. I gave a specific answer to that reference. In IL a BP pistol is still considered a firearm. How it's treated in the other 49 states is up to each and every other state. They're all different.
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Old July 27, 2005, 07:11 AM   #8
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Tennessee decided recently that it will honor ALL other state permits. One should probably still determine by contacting the Tennessee Department of Safety exactly what that means. In general, however, if you have a valid permit in your state, you have a valid permit in Tennessee.
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Old July 27, 2005, 09:58 AM   #9
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Doug,

May I respectfully suggest that you check www.packing.org before you travel with a handgun outside your home state. It has very clear, thorough, and updated information re reciprocity and acceptance of licenses.
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Old July 27, 2005, 10:52 AM   #10
Doug.38PR
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RWK,
thanks, www.packing.org is a little more clear and specific than the NRA website.

Payne
It's amazing, Alabama is the only Southern state that is does not recognize Texas permits, it's a red state right in the middle of the gray permit states. Amazing. What's going on with our state legislatures? Just havn't gotten around to it?
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Old July 27, 2005, 01:28 PM   #11
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Bama still has funny political problems that are going to keep them out of the 21st century.

Come on out to NM. You can tuck a 75mm pack howitzer in the back seat l of the car and we won't care. We don't have reciprocity with anyone yet though so open carry only outside the car.

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Old July 28, 2005, 12:16 AM   #12
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"Bama still has funny political problems that are going to keep them out of the 21st century."

SamD, please explain what you mean. I don't know of what you're speaking about. ALso don't know how to take that statement either.
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Old July 28, 2005, 01:21 AM   #13
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payne,
no need to get yer dander up.

At this point I'll confine it to the silly "qualified" and "unlimited" categories of permit issued for CCW. Totally discretionary on the part of your friendly county sheriff. And so is issueing a permit at all. My brother in law lives up in your part of the state, respectable business owner, 24 years prior LE experience and can't manage to get an unlimited license, the qualified license has some of the silliest restrictions I have ever heard of, all at the discretion of a 2 bit sheriff who only made it out of high school by being thrown out back in 1963. Seems no one there can get an unlimited license. Sheriff doesn't like them, no one needs to carry, etc.etc.etc.etc.....

It is merely indicative of the rest of the political process there. A little too much Howell Heflin and little too much Boss Hogg. Remember how they got the cancer treatment center in Birmingham? Thats the only way anything there seems to get done.

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Old July 28, 2005, 10:59 AM   #14
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According to my understanding, in California, a black powder gun is considered UNLOADED if it does not have the caps on. In other words, it can be loaded with ball and powder as long as the caps are not on.

Now whether you could carry the caps in your pocket is questionable. Because having a firearm (read pistol or revolver) empty, but having the ammo in your pocket would be considered a loaded firearm, as the ammunition is within your reach for use.
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Old July 29, 2005, 03:05 AM   #15
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Sam, I feel sorry for your brother-in-law. What county does he live in in NE AL? I'm in Marshall and I recieved my permit within 10min of walking into the station. Also coulda got it in Calhoun CO. in the same amount of time.

Also, how long ago did he try to get the permit. I believe AL is a shall issue state. Anyone that passes instant background check gets a permit. I don't know if AL has always been a shall issue though. He should try again b/c he should recieve a permit as long as he has a clean record.

The "qualified" and "unlimited" I'm not understanding either. Maybe it was a thing they used to do. My permit has no indications of "qualified" or "unlimited" on it. I'm not restricted in any way of carry nor do I need any official qualification to recieve my permit. I just cant carry a gun into places that serve alcohol and courthouses. But that is statewide, not just for certain people.

Tell me about this "qualified" and "unlimited" stuff. What does it deal with? Did you used to live here and they did it to you to?
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Old July 29, 2005, 11:18 AM   #16
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Payne,
He lives in Piedmont (Calhoun)now. Haven't spoken with him in a while but that's how it was in 2002.
From what I understand, that restriction on places that serve alcohol is part of the "discretionary". Resturants.

That discretionary part can make life difficult if the sheriff isn't happy with you. Not an issue now since he falls under the retired LEO category and has other means. From what I understand the issue goes all the way back to like 1962. It's a personal thing.

Here is the applicable section of the Alabama State law:

Section 13A-11-75
License to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person - Issuance; term; form; fee; revocation.

The sheriff of a county MAY, upon the application of any person residing in that county, issue a QUALIFIED or UNLIMITED license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person within this state for not more than one year from date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property or has any other proper reason for carrying a pistol, and that he is a suitable person to be so licensed. The license shall be in triplicate, in form to be prescribed by the Secretary of State, and shall bear the name, address, description and signature of the licensee and the reason given for desiring a license. The original thereof shall be delivered to the licensee, the duplicate shall, within seven days, be sent by registered or certified mail to the Director of Public Safety and the triplicate shall be preserved for six years by the authority issuing the same. The fee for issuing such license shall be $1.00 which shall be paid into the county treasury. The sheriff may revoke a license upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licensed.
(Acts 1936, Ex. Sess., No. 82, p. 51; Code 1940, T. 14, §177; Acts 1947, No. 616, p. 463, §5; Acts 1951, No. 784, p. 1378; Code 1975, §13-6-155.)

Alabama is a discretionary issue state and at the county level even more discretionary.

Sam
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Old July 29, 2005, 06:27 PM   #17
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Payne;

I live in DeKalb (howdy, neighbor). I've had a permit since 1981. All they ever say on them is "State Pistol Permit". I have never seen a "qualified" or "unlimited" permit. I guess mine is unlimited, because there is no restrictions. All it has on the back are the 4 basic safety rules.

As far as carry carry in other states, check out the AG website.

http://www.ago.state.al.us/

I believe there are approximately 20 states that recognize AL permits, including all the surrounding states at this time. Most local gun stores also have a list. Several states wouldn't accept Al permits because they said we didn't do enough of a background check before issuing one.

Our permits cost $25, going to the S.O. for expenses/upkeep of the equipment. ($1 really is ancient: they were $10 back when I first got mine).

"Personal Matters" can keep anyone from getting permits. It isn't exclusive to AL.
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Old July 30, 2005, 10:24 AM   #18
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Some states like Fl. are called "shall issue" which means that unless something disqualifies you( B.G. check etc.) you will be issued a permit. I know Al. is at the discretion of the county sheriff which I think is a bad idea, you could possibly have a county that will not issue any permits to anyone I suppose. I believe Fl. has entered agreements with eveyone who reciprocates with them. Please someone correct me if I am wrong. www.packing.org is a pretty good site for this kind of information.
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Old July 30, 2005, 03:35 PM   #19
payne
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smince, it's sucks you gotta pay $25 for your permit. Marshall is just $10, I hope we don't go up. I live about 5miles from DeKalb Co. Good to know theirs a fellow TFL member close. I didn't know we were a shall issue state. but I had never heard of anyone actually being turned down until now for a permit.

smince, where do you go shoot at? you got private land you go to or a range? i couldn't find any ranges in DeKalb county. The only range I go to is in mountainboro (Sand Mt. shooters club) mostly I just shoot out behind my house.
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Old July 30, 2005, 06:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
I know Al. is at the discretion of the county sheriff which I think is a bad idea, you could possibly have a county that will not issue any permits to anyone I suppose.
This CAN be a good thing. Like the time I know of when a guy showed up asking for a permit wearing cammie pants, black leather jacket, and a "Kill 'Em All" t-shirt. He was turned down. Well, actually, told he needed to come back when the Sheriff had time to sit down and have a talk with him. But he never came back. I think I would have turned this individual down also. Other than "known persons of interest", he is the only person I know of turned down. I also know of situations where one member of the household may not qualify, but the spouse does. So they apply, just so the "questionable spouse" can have a gun handy. This is something that maybe an in-person interview may be picked up on, whereas it may be missed in an application going through the normal bureaucratic channels.

Even with our problems, it still a lot better than many of you have. I've heard that Madison (Huntsville) and Jefferson (Birmingham) counties are difficult to get permits in. However, the beauty of ELECTED (not "appointed") Sheriff's is that they tend to do what the local population asks or they don't have a job next election.

After reading the hoops that many of you have to jump through to exercise a right, $25 and 10 minutes is a very small price to pay.
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Old July 30, 2005, 08:24 PM   #21
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smince: Does Al. require a b/g check or is it totally left up to the county sheriff?
You guys think $25 is high you should try $117 like Fl. it is however good for 5 years.
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Old July 31, 2005, 01:24 AM   #22
payne
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Delta, we do have background checks run in all counties. It's like the one they do when you buy a gun. It only takes a couple minutes to do, thats why its only 10min to get the permit. I think the eventually do a more extensive b/g check after a while though.

Here in Marshall Co. It's $10 but we gotta renew yearly.
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Old July 31, 2005, 03:00 AM   #23
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When I first got my permit (1981 was a misprint, it was actually 1983) our Sheriff did a one-on-one interview with everyone who was a first-time applicant. When my wife decided to get her permit, we renewed them on the same day (better chance to remember when the expiration date was). When I said I wanted to renew my permit and get my wife one, the Chief Deputy said "if he already has one, give her one, too." (see above statement on "questionable spouses"). This was circa 1991. Since then, it is just a matter of presenting the old permit and a check for renewal.

To answer your question, as far as I know, no background check has ever been done on me or my wife (for a permit, that is). So I can't comment on whether one is run on current applicants or not. And, believe me, I'm not complaining about the $25.00 (When I was stationed in GA, $30.00, good for 4 years).
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Old July 31, 2005, 08:36 AM   #24
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I think some states do not recognize other states ccw permits because of some diffenences such as Louisiana and Florida ( two states that I know for sure ) require you to take a ccw class before issuing a permit some states make you take a class and qualify on a shooting range and some states like Indiana have no requirements at all with the exception of not being a felon and age restrictions
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Old July 31, 2005, 09:34 AM   #25
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I also live in Alabama. At one time our permit would allow only one and at max two serial numbered pistols on the permit. Now they are unrestricted in that you have no pistol identification and are allowed to carry a firearm concealed on your person. Some counties also allow "open" carry, my county does not.
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