The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 30, 2005, 03:57 PM   #51
Whitefalls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 166
Did you even read the article you linked to that says todays BB guns shoot around the same velocity as a .22 rifle? I guess all the people who would respond to an attacker armed with a .22 rifle are also just looking for an excuse to shoot someone. Those sick bastards.

I'm not saying to gun down everyone with a BB gun... I'm merely point out that saying people in this thread are just looking for an excuse to kill someone is a bit extreme, and uncalled for.
Whitefalls is offline  
Old July 30, 2005, 04:10 PM   #52
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
I'm merely point out that saying people in this thread are just looking for an excuse to kill someone is a bit extreme, and uncalled for.
Read my posts again I did not say that all the people here were looking for an excuse. If you are not one of them, then you should have no gripe.

My question was simply if you could justify to yourself, as opposed to getting away with it in court, shooting someone with a BB gun.
If not for the somewhat condescending nonresponse I got from the original question, I probably would not have made the second comment

If you are one of those that feel that they could justify shooting a real gun against a BB gun fine. I don't think I could.
If that somehow makes me your enemy, so be it.
I'll be happy to discuss it with you but I refuse to get in a ******* match over it.

BTW those .22 velocity BB guns are usually rifles and not (fast) repeaters. They have to be pumped several times or loaded one BB at a time after being broken in the middle or a lever activated.
At least the ones I've seen.
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old July 30, 2005, 04:33 PM   #53
Whitefalls
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 166
Never said you were my enemy. Perhaps I misinterpreted the intentions behind your post, and if that's the case, then my apologies.
Whitefalls is offline  
Old August 5, 2006, 06:25 PM   #54
BLiTTz
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2006
Posts: 2
I'm glad that I stumbled onto this site and this old thread. I got somethin to say.

I'm a 28 year old Black man who use to get into trouble cause accordin to the city's shrinks, I'm "Borderline" psychotic and bipolar. I have been under treatment for years now, and I'm glad. I'm also glad I sold my illegal real steel .38 Army Issue Revolver and my chrome .32 when I needed money, before I got on a mental health program.

I live in Chicago around the Humboldt Park neighborhood. on the West side of my block is a crackhouse with 9 or 10 gangstas standing sellin rocks. On the opposite end is gangstas who are under them (smaller crew).

A few blocks away theres a crew of kids maybe 10-19 who use BB guns and realsteel firearms interchangeably, and so do 2 other gangs that are allied w/ them.

In movies like DOOM, Resident Evil2 and Terminator 3, you probably didnt notice that Arnold was wearin platform boots, let alone did you notice when an Airsoft gun was on screen.

If some kid pulls somethin that looks like real steel on you, assume it is. For the "older" (no offense) cats on here, they even still use zip guns where I live...so nobody's goin overboard. The gang membership is goin up, and broke kids are buyin .22s and Airguns.

I only registered to say that. stay safe.
BLiTTz is offline  
Old August 5, 2006, 06:30 PM   #55
BLiTTz
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2006
Posts: 2
one more thing:

http://www.chicagogangs.org/

Enter the site. Then go to "OldSchool" gangs (that just means they been around for a while.
if you click on any gang link, you will see where it says "Pictures" in the upper left hand.

Try and guess which guns are real and which ones are Airguns. The only BB gun I would bet money on is the pics for "Renegade Outlawz"

once again. if you got a family, dont hesitate because you THINK it's fake. peace.
BLiTTz is offline  
Old August 5, 2006, 06:58 PM   #56
Dreadnought
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2006
Location: Willy
Posts: 318
Doesn't matter if it is a weak gun or a high-power air rifle, you don't know what it could be. In a badly lit area, which of these would you think is real?


My daisy powerline is advertised at 1000fps. It looks like a real rifle and some of my friends got scared when they came to my apt. and saw it trigger-locked in my closet. I don't have any doubt that a shot through the eye just might kill a person.

I'm drawing, regardless. Don't be a pr1ck and point a gun at someone and not expect to possibly get dead whether you're a "kid" or not.
__________________
"NO YELLING ON THE BUS!"
Dreadnought is offline  
Old August 5, 2006, 08:28 PM   #57
OneInTheChamber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2005
Posts: 789
I don't know many perp's who will stare down the barrel of real gun and still point a bb gun at you.

But otherwise:

Unless it was obviously, and I mean bet my life on it obvious (literally) a bb gun, he's getting shot immediately.

I don't want to get shot with a CO2 pellet gun anymore than I don't want to get shot with a .22 anymore than I don't want to get shot with a .45......

I have the right to defend myself when a weapon is being pointed at me.

I shouldn't have to risk my life because some punk wants to inflict a felony on me.

I shouldn't have to bet my life on whether its a toy or not.

He got himself into this mess, not me.
OneInTheChamber is offline  
Old August 5, 2006, 08:29 PM   #58
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,304
Welcome to The Firing Line, BLiTTz! Thanks for the input.

Quote:
I only registered to say that. stay safe.
Stick around! I suspect that you have a wealth of unique information that would be valuable to the Members here.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old August 6, 2006, 10:15 AM   #59
atlctyslkr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 613
Someone threatening you with a BB gun is threatening you with bodily harm. Handle accordingly.
atlctyslkr is offline  
Old August 6, 2006, 05:29 PM   #60
azurefly
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2005
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
I'm not going to let someone blind me with a bb to the eye and just sit back.

This is a hard call though as the most likely incident will occur with some stupid kids playing around. I would call the cops for sure though and have the kid charged.
Roger, a-firm. That's exactly what I was thinking.

It also occurs to me that if you were to shoot a kid, quite righteously, who had fired a bb gun at you (it certainly qualifies as threat of grievous bodily harm, unless some idiot thinks losing an EYE would be no big thing), whether you are in an anti-gun area or not, the press is gonna skewer you, and the headlines will read, "Man responds with real gun, kills kid with fake gun" and worse.


-azurefly
azurefly is offline  
Old August 6, 2006, 11:46 PM   #61
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
It also occurs to me that if you were to shoot a kid, quite righteously, who had fired a bb gun at you
"I had to shoot, he could'a put an eye out with that thing"
It's only going to work if Ralphie's mother is the jury foreman and can sway the others
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old August 6, 2006, 11:58 PM   #62
azurefly
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2005
Posts: 1,189
That's just an absurd statement.

If the law says that you are justified in shooting (using deadly physical force, that is) when confronted with actions that a reasonable person believes may cause grievous physical injury (having an eye destroyed with a bb would count) or death (which could happen, too), then a jury would be instructed to make a finding of not-guilty if that area of the law had been met.

It's that simple.

You can make all the juvenile allusions to "an official Red Ryder carbine-action 200 shot range model air rifle with a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time" all you want, but you are just robbing yourself of more and more credibility here, Joab.

This is about the potential for modern air rifles and air pistols to cause grievous bodily harm; and the fact that in most jurisdictions, it is legal to meet such threat of harm with deadly force in order to stop it.


-azurefly
azurefly is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 12:40 AM   #63
razorburn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2006
Posts: 260
I would not draw on a bb-gun wielding person, if I knew for a fact that it was a bb gun. The power level of any gun that shoots bbs is ridiculously low and would be unlikely to penetrate your clothes, much less do serious damage to you. Even the pellet rifles which advertise shooting 1000fps, only do so with a tiny superlight pellet with less than a tiny fraction of what a .22lr bullet weighs, weighing about 4-5 grains. A rock thrown by hand is much more dangerous and powerful. A 1000fps .177 air rifle's power compares to even a lowly .22lr like a 9mm pistol compares to a .300winchester magnum rifle.

When I was a teen, I had air rifles which are considered "magnum" class by the airgun community. A .22 cal MAC-1 Steroid 392 launching 14 gr pellets at 900+ fps and a rws 94 advertised at 1000fps in .177 and 850 in .22. Both failed to penetrate 1" of cheap composite wood plank. I measured it out at just over 1/2" of penetration in wood.

I do not care that authorities will charge someone with "deadly weapon" when threatening others with a bb gun. They may also consider fingernail clippers on a plane to be a "deadly weapon", but for me, that does not justify me drawing on Granny Maple for waving one around and threatening to pinch me with one.

As for dreadnought's pics, the one on the right is easily ID'd as a bb gun because of that silly little rod thing on the bottom, and the rifle is obviously a pellet gun because of the huge break barrel/spring compressing mechanism at the end of the stock. Non-gun people get scared when they see a black squirt gun. However, if I could not easily id something as an air gun, I would definately draw. Otherwise, it's cover my face-break toy gun-kick butt time.
razorburn is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 01:12 AM   #64
azurefly
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2005
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorburn
I would not draw on a bb-gun wielding person, if I knew for a fact that it was a bb gun.
It has been made clear that this very thing may be impossible to determine. Do you have Superman vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razorburn
The power level of any gun that shoots bbs is ridiculously low and would be unlikely to penetrate your clothes, much less do serious damage to you.
Honestly, what planet are people from who argue that "any gun that shoots BBs" can't do any damage to you?! Do you realize how absurd that hyper-generalization is??

I'd like you to maybe indicate your willingness to stand five feet away while I aim even one of those crappy spring-loaded Marksman "1911s" at your eye. You don't think that even a BB at, say, 200 fps could damage your eye?! Now take a Daisy 881 pumped 10 or so times, alleged to make over 800 fps. Do you honestly think that this is all about whether it can go through your shirt, sweatshirt, and leather winter jacket?! How in the world do you know that the shot won't be at your throat, mouth, eye? And you believe that there is NO gun that fires BBs that could do more than make an annoying little welt?


Quote:
When I was a teen, I had air rifles which are considered "magnum" class by the airgun community. A .22 cal MAC-1 Steroid 392 launching 14 gr pellets at 900+ fps and a rws 94 advertised at 1000fps in .177 and 850 in .22. Both failed to penetrate 1" of cheap composite wood plank. I measured it out at just over 1/2" of penetration in wood.
So, it failed to penetrate 1" of wood, so that means it's just totally incapable of rupturing an eyeball, yeah?


Quote:
I do not care that authorities will charge someone with "deadly weapon" when threatening others with a bb gun. They may also consider fingernail clippers on a plane to be a "deadly weapon."

The fact that they have slapped "prohibited" onto nail clippers does not mean that your hyperbole is a valid argument. The one has nothing to do with the other, unless you want to conveniently ignore that people HAVE lost eyes to BB guns, and they HAVE even caused death!


Quote:
As for dreadnought's pics, the one on the right is easily ID'd as a bb gun because of that silly little rod thing on the bottom.
Is this more of the Superman vision?

What about if the gun is held in a hand with a really big sleeve, like on a winter jacket (similar to the BB-proof one you'll be wearing), or if it's a low-light situation?

Really, I just don't understand why so many people are just disavowing the notion that a BB gun can cause substantial enough injury to warrant deadly force. C'mon, people, the law puts you in the clear with the wording "grievous physical harm." Other laws talk about "lasting injury or loss of function of a body part or organ."

How many of you would want to be blinded because you did not want to meet force with force, because you thought it was unseemly to shoot someone who had "only" a BB gun? I am not saying you have to necessarily shoot, even -- but some are saying they would not even draw! I'm sorry, but I am a pilot and a skydiver and I am NOT going to leave myself open to losing the ability to do those things just because "it's only a BB gun." I may not know that it's "only" a BB gun, first of all; and even if I did know, I'd give the attacker (he IS an attacker, after all) ONE SHORT CHANCE to give it up (and I'm going home with the BB gun, or to the police, btw) with my weapon drawn. And the funny thing is, no one would ever have to know if I really did know it was a BB gun or not. A fool would admit, "Yeah, I drew knowing it was a BB gun." A wise person would say, "How would you like to be in that situation and not be sure, and then have someone second-guess you, officer? I couldn't be sure, and I thought it sure looked like a real gun, so I protected myself."


-azurefly
-azurefly
azurefly is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 09:59 AM   #65
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Tell you what azurefly
You try to convince a jury that you had to shoot a kid with what you knew was a BB gun (check the original post, if you can see to read it from your high horse) because you thought he could put an eye out and see who comes up sounding juvenile.
Right now you sound like a hundred other pseudo he-men desperately seeking a reason to shoot someone.
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 10:24 AM   #66
buzz_knox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,191
Quote:
"I had to shoot, he could'a put an eye out with that thing"
It's only going to work if Ralphie's mother is the jury foreman and can sway the others
Deadly force is authorized when there is an immediate and unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent. Loss of an eye constitutes grave bodily harm in pretty much every jurisdiction, so you should be able to get a jury instruction on the point and in your favor.

Or maybe you can tell the jury that the impact of a high velocity projectile (to wit, a BB) onto one of the few unarmored portions of a human skull can actually cause death. But let's not let facts get in the way of a tirade, right?
buzz_knox is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 10:32 AM   #67
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
And lets not let common sense get in the way of a good excuse for your blood lust.

Either this thread is full of youngsters that can't remember pre- paintbal BB gun wars, old pansies who were always on the losing side of those wars or macho men looking for a reason to shoot someone.
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 10:46 AM   #68
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
shielding my eyes. Run up to that fellow, beat him into submission, take his "toy" and smash it on the sidewalk. Call the police.
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 11:01 AM   #69
buzz_knox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,191
On second thought, it's not worth it.
buzz_knox is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 11:07 AM   #70
Epyon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2006
Location: Awesome, Colorado
Posts: 700
Well now...

If I somehow KNEW the person had a BB gun? Depends, if it's a kid I'll shield myself and try to take it away from the little punk and call the cops. If I'm walking at night and the "kid" is just some idiot high schooler or 20 something year old drawing on me, I'd be more inclined to shoot first and ask questions later if I didn't know it was a BB gun. I have played with airsofts and such before, fun when you're with friends and everyone KNOWS they are not real however many of them do LOOK, FEEL, AND MOVE JUST LIKE THEIR REAL COUNTERPARTS!! This thread reminds me of a shooting that happened in the middle school I went to years ago, for those who don't know there was a kid recently who took an airsoft gun to Millwee Middle and the airsoft looked like a real gun. The kid was holed up in a restroom, and officers shot the boy. There was huge public outcry, some defending the officer's decision, and others condemning the shooting.


Epyon

P.S: I've got a thread posted in reaction to this thread.
__________________
Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.
Epyon is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 11:31 AM   #71
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
a kid recently who took an airsoft gun to Millwee Middle and the airsoft looked like a real gun.
I am very familiar with that story, my father knew the kid's family and my BIL was on the scene that day.

The officer that day was justified in shooting at what he had no way of knowing was not a real deadly threat, as any one of us would have been justified.

But shooting at what you know is a BB gun and trying to justify it be using your grandmother's warning, that you didn't take seriously back then and no thinking person will take seriously in a courtroom, is just asinine.

And anyone that doesn't think that a Ralphie reference will not be brought up in the jury room in response to such a defense has not been around people much
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old August 7, 2006, 11:42 AM   #72
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,304
This has gotten completely out of hand.

Closed, for a total lack of civility .
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15587 seconds with 7 queries