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Old July 23, 2005, 02:15 AM   #1
Full Metal Jacket
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7.62x25mm Tokarev good for self defense?

Just wondering what you guys thought about the 7.62x25mm round for self defense. 85 grains @1650 fps IIRC. Would it create a large wound channel do to extremely high velocity? It would seem to be better than 357 SIG at penetrating materials like cars and kevlar vests. Have there been any gelatin tests done on the ole' commie round?
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Old July 23, 2005, 02:35 AM   #2
Sum1_Special
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Going to carry a cz-52 or TT-33 are you? Well, This round has a good reputation for doing some serious damage, it also has a reputation for over penetrating. 2-3 years ago it would have been considered one of the worse rounds for self defence, because of its guarantee to pass right through the human body, but now-a-days hollow points and soft points can be seen for sale. The high velocity makes the bullets the best canidates for expansion, and the muzzle energy is better than any other caliber up to .357 magnum, including 45 acp.

You can buy hollow points here: http://www.makarov.com/cart/ammo762x25.htm

And as for ballistic tests, well, I have seen this round penetrate steel piping, if you are going to use this caliber for self defence it'll be hollow points only.


On left 7.62x25...on right 9MM

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Old July 23, 2005, 03:49 AM   #3
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That isn't "extremely high velocity". 1650 fps is not even into the rifle range for velocities. This is still well below the power of the "weak" .30 Carbine round.

Just because the round is fast for a handgun, that doesn't mean it isn't still a handgun round, and it certainly doesn't mean it is fast. Lacking real velocity, handgun rounds rely on expansion and weight to do damage. A .30 bullet weighing 85 grains possesses neither.
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Old July 23, 2005, 03:50 AM   #4
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I've also heard of people reloading this round wth 110 gr RN soft points for the .30 Carbine.
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Old July 23, 2005, 05:31 AM   #5
omegapd
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Try a search on this forum. I asked the same question a good while back.

I think it's very "do-able" but the lack of a safety on my Norinco Tokarev is what's holding me back. I don't want to carry hammer down or empty chamber.

FWIW, I bought some of Reed's Custom ammo. Think it's the 100g Hornady HP. Checks out at 1550 I believe out of this gun. Hot stuff!
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Old July 23, 2005, 07:25 AM   #6
Hal
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7.62Tok

Some local nut job shot a cop just south of where I live a couple of years back with one.

Caught the poor guy square in the anus as he was prone,, crawling away. Bullet went the whole distance of his body. From what I heard/read, it was over for the poor bastard quick.
(No disrepect for the man intended by calling him a cop. He was a good man in a bad situation)
Now the Tok has some sort of "Cop killer" reputation/stigmatism attached to it here in NE Ohio. I noticed Cabella's won't ship 7.62 Tok to Ohio anymore.

I'm with Handy on this as far as the round itself being unremarkable.

I can get more velocity out of a flyweight (110 gr) .357.

Last edited by Hal; July 24, 2005 at 04:13 AM.
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Old July 23, 2005, 07:28 AM   #7
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Well that's different

I think it should be pretty good - it's a .30 caliber round moving at peak velocities for a handgun - momentum is about the same as a 9mm round, with significantly less frontal area, so the penetration abilities sure make sense. I believe recoil should be about equal to that in a 9mm.

Nevertheless, unless you want it because it's interesting/different, the question is, would it really work better than the more common (ie available, tried and true (in the West)) 9mm/40S&W/45ACP/357Mag? Either a 9mm+P/147gr or a 357Mag 158gr+ can do some penetrating too if that's what you're after.

To me the main issues are that it is uncommon, and kind of an unknown, little supported in the West. On the surface at least, it sounds like a pretty good round on a ballistic basis.
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Old July 23, 2005, 01:56 PM   #8
npcolin
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Well, put it this way. What ever the geletin/ballistic tests show, I don't want to be in front of the muzzle.
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Old July 23, 2005, 03:07 PM   #9
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I don't recommend the 7,62 Tokarev for self defense unless you can get some jacketed hollowpoints or soft points.

Even then, this chambering is extremely loud out of a pistol barrel (just a bit quieter than a M44 Mosin Nagant) and produces large amounts of muzzle flash depending on the load.

It tends to penetrate more than tumble or break up, and a FMJ would probably zip right through a goblin, posing a hazard to innocent bystanders.

Recoil is a bit more than a 9mm, and there is definitely more muzzle flip.
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Old July 23, 2005, 03:44 PM   #10
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Well, I sure as heck would not want to be shot with this caliber (or any others for that matter). If only someone would make a gun chambered in this round that had a decent grip angle! Hmmm, I'd still rather have a 9, .357, 40, or .45. for SD. My CZ-52 is a lot of fun for 120 bucks, though. Steel core bullets can penetrate lots of household goodies.
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Old July 23, 2005, 05:09 PM   #11
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I think we need to understand one thing here, handguns are NOT POWERFUL. They do not really give you wound channels because of high velocity or bullet weight. They punch holes in people, that is all they really do for the most part. They have neither the velocity or bullet weight to do anything other then that. Yes, sometimes they seem to do miraculously things, but that is the exception rather then the norm.

The best way to stop someone with a handgun is to stop the messages to the muscles, and the best way to do that is break the spine or kill the brain. So your 7.62 x 25mm would have the penetration to do that.

Ok, I will go back on my meds now...
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Old July 23, 2005, 05:32 PM   #12
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Theories vary...

The .30 Tokarev runs a light, small diameter bullet at relatively high velocity. (Higher than a .38 Special or .45 ACP, anyway.) With FMJ bullets, penetration is pretty impressive. Against a adversary in a vehicle or wearing a vest, these rounds are more likely to penetrate. However, they don't do much damage to the target, usually zipping through. Hollowpoints might change this, but at the price of expansion.

I'm a heavy bullet guy, so I don't think it's such a hot idea. I'd rather poke a much wider hole with a much heavier bullet. But I'm a dinosaur.

In a 1911 frame with proper sights, I think something in the .30 Tokarev/Mauser/Luger category would be a nifty small game round. Providing one uses proper bullets, either hollowpoints or SWC. Good for rabbits and possums and such.
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Old July 23, 2005, 05:58 PM   #13
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Maybe it's just me, but I detect a bit of gun snobbery and caliber hating in this thread. Why would you not trust this round more than a 9mm? Is it the high velocity or the fact it is a communist round? This caliber is certainly more powerful than 9mm, its ballistics are closer to 40 S&W with more knockdown power.

I have a Cz-52, and before buying it a few years ago i did tons of research on both the pistol and caliber. I've also done quite a bit of experimentation, I could hit a tree at 300 yards away with it. It's like a miniature rifle, which is exactly what was in mind when the czechoslovakians manufactured this pistol, hence the bottlenecked cartridge and roller locking mechanism.

To say a handgun is not powerful is plain stupid. Maybe not when you compare it to a rifle... but on its own it certainly is powerful. Why the hell do you, or police for that matter, carry a handgun? Because it is a weak and inferior weapon? I have a CZ-52 and i have a Mosin Nagant Model 1891/30, it is war issue. The bullet it shoots is a 200 grain long, thin spitzer boat tail that will slice through the human body like a paper target, leaving a tiny hole. A 7.62x25 will do the exact same thing, and it is semi automatic. What would be more useful in a close combat situation?
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Old July 23, 2005, 06:06 PM   #14
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As far as the original question...

Will a 7.62 x 25 work for self-defense? You bet your sweet patootie!
Reed from Reed's ammo told me you are looking at 1500-1600 fps for a 100gr Hornady XTP that will penetrate both sides of a 300 lb. hog and leave a 2 inch hole coming out. Not too shabby, I'd say, compared to other handgun rounds. Body armor and barriers, such as car doors, etc. would be of little use as cover.

As for whether it is as powerful as a rifle round, do we really need to clarify that? Okay, if you are able to substitute a rifle for this application, do that.

But...since someone decided to bring it up... you CAN use the sabot rounds and get within a hair of sks velocity, around 2200 fps

Omega, do you still know how to find Reed's? I tried his website and e-mail a while back and got nada.
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Old July 23, 2005, 06:16 PM   #15
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Well, personally, I know that the Former Soviet Union has a lot of good science, so I am not questioning it because it's from the East. They nearly beat us in the space race, with a much smaller team and much smaller budget - you don't do that if you're stupid. Have also spoken a fair amount with Russian scientists and doctors - nothing wrong there.

What I am saying, is that, no matter where it's from, I like to see lots of ballistic gelatin testing under different conditions, as well as at least some reports of field effectiveness. A wide variety of readily available ammunition of different designs and parameters from manufacturers of known good reputation is good too. At least in the US, I don't think we have access to any of these things right now.
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Old July 23, 2005, 07:11 PM   #16
juliet charley
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One thing to remember is that the Soviet Union replaced the 7.62 Tok fifty years ago--with the 9x18 Mak (so, using some of the logic exercised in this thread, it must be better). BTW, part of the reason it was selected is because it was more effective (and it's no paragon of power).

And let's not forget the 9x19 came about as a direct effort to increase the effectiveness of very similar calibre--.30 Luger (7.65x23).
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Old July 23, 2005, 07:37 PM   #17
Sum1_Special
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HA! After looking all day i finally found an old thread that i remember reading long ago. Extremely informative thread!

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17008

__________________________________________

Quote:
There are people that think the 7.62x25 are useless.

Well, ya know there are people right now in Russia.
that use, pistols quite often and the concensus I have heard of is that the 7.62x25 (T33 and Cz52) is one of the favorites
because it works very effectively
I guy I know from Denmark told me this when I showed him My Cz52.

Mmmmmmm
Not the first time that Soviet Armorments where wrongly concidered less that adequate.
there are not many things that the Soviets do Well.
One thing that they seem to Accell at is
Weapons.
This has been proven over and over again and again.
I understand the "opposition" to the 7.62x25 cartrige
due to it's "ethnicity"
IMHO the complaints of the 7.62x25 cartrige are Emotionally based
Not technically based.
it does exactly what they want it to do very well.
You have to understand what they wanted the pistols to do in the first place.

Have you got time for a short story?

in 1920's Soviet Union the NKVD and the new "red" army had a hodgepodge of different pistols and calibers, from .30 nagants' to
.44 russian Smith & Wesson's
They where still figguring out this whole "Central Control Idea"
They liked the 1903 colt and the .30 mauser
so, they needed a pistol to work for everybody,
Police, NKVD, and the Officer Corp of the Red army
and it had to be something that could be simple enough to make indegeniously.
they came up with the T33 Tokerev
There where several "issues" that the T33 services very well.

1) Penatration.

The NKVD officers complained that .45 bullets did not allways penatrate the thick winter coats that everyone wore in the wintertime.
one thing the Soviets did exceptionally poorly, was make consumer goods. One of the most common that they had the most trouble with was Cloth.
Have you seen how big and complicated a cloth loom is? thats a big machine.
Therefor since cloth material was not as easily avalible, The soviets made their greatcoats out of Felt.
Wool Felt, an inch thick or more if the person is wearing a double layer, then 2inches
Felt is easy to make ya cart the wool pour it in to a tray with some cemicals, roll it out and viola!
Felt is also very dense.
The 7.62x25 was very effective at penatrating layers of felt.

2) Ease of manufacture.
The steelmills only had to make one barrel stock, (.30 cal)
same for pistols, rifles, machine guns,
3) wound charcteristics
The NKVD (later to become the KGB) had thousands and thousands of officers. they could cover the entire City, even in Moscow.
Their policy was to shoot anyone that ran from them.
They didnt want to kill outright every one they shot.
So think of it, you are a counter revolutionary running dog spy! and you get questioned by a NKVD state security officer. ya slug him and run
he fires and wounds you.
you get away.
With a gun shot wound in Russia where are you going to go where they wont find you?
a good body cavity shot with a 7.62x25 will eventually incapicate most humans. and can cause a slow agonizing death.
3 days later you go to the hospital, any hospital and there they are. waiting to question you.
thats exactly what they wanted to do in he first place, but now, they know you have some reason to run.
If they want to kill you the 7.62x25 is very effective when fired directly into the brain.
(After questioning)
4) Ease of training.
Most young men in the Soviet Union where simple folk from rural areas.
Likely as not the most complicated machine the conscripts had operated prior to training would have been a ox drawn plow.
something as complicated and mysterious as a pistol would be a great technoligical leap.
So, when shooting a moveing target(like a running dog counter revolutionary)it is not necessary to teach "leading the target"
The 7.62x25 is so fast at pistol ranges that it becomes very easy to hit a moveing target.
and at greater distances too.
The cartrige in inherently accuate.
These are just a few reasons why the Soviets Chose
The T33 and the Czech Cz 52 in the 7.62x25 caliber.
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Old July 23, 2005, 08:07 PM   #18
juliet charley
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Thanks, Sum1, you found the most damning indictment of the 7.62 Tok for self-defence so far:
Quote:
a good body cavity shot with a 7.62x25 will eventually incapicate most humans. and can cause a slow agonizing death. 3 days later you go to the hospital, any hospital and there they are. waiting to question you.
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Old July 23, 2005, 08:34 PM   #19
Sum1_Special
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We are talking about FMJ. almost any light, high velocity round will do this with a FMJ bullet, such is the design of the caliber. Soviet snipers were trained to shoot for the chest multiple times as one shot would not kill immediately. This is why we don't Hunt with Full Metal Jacket.

But as i mentioned earlier, a few companies sell hollowpoints and softpoints in this caliber, this makes the gun adequate enough for self defence. They are available at makarov.com.

Since some people don't seem to follow links i'll post a picture.



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Old July 23, 2005, 08:52 PM   #20
juliet charley
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Quote:
But as i mentioned earlier, a few companies sell hollowpoints and softpoints in this caliber, this makes the gun adequate enough for self defence.
Based on what? Your gut feel? Solid ballistics testing? Historical performance?
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Old July 23, 2005, 09:00 PM   #21
Sum1_Special
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Actually, yes, gut feeling. I keep my Vz-52(CZ-52) loaded for home defense with these rounds. I am sure there is someone who has run ballistics tests for these HP rounds. I will try to find one. Though I see no reason why these bullets would not work well.
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Old July 23, 2005, 09:07 PM   #22
juliet charley
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You can rely on "gut feel" all you want--just remember, it's easy to be sincerely wrong. Frankly, when it comes to my life and the lives of my loved ones, I prefer hard data in the form test data from reputable, professional labs/testers and a history proven performance in actual LE use. YMMV, but there are a multitude of round that DO meet those criteria.
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Old July 24, 2005, 02:41 AM   #23
omegapd
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Quote:
Omega, do you still know how to find Reed's? I tried his website and e-mail a while back and got nada.
Hey TX,

The last time I bought some from him, I got it off of Gunbroker.com

He might have gone to doing the auction places full time now.
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Old July 24, 2005, 02:55 AM   #24
TX_RGR
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Hey omega, thanks for the info. I was hoping he wasn't out of business. I like his stuff a lot.

While not a statistical gold mine, the example of the 300 lb. hog was one I read about on another forum. Can't say for sure which one, but the guy took pictures of the hog. He said he shot it with his rifle in the face (and he showed that too), and it was still running around, so he shot it through both lungs and not sure what else with his CZ 52. He took pictures of exit wound from the 100 gr Hornady XTP he was using. Hogs have some mighty thick hide, too, so that is pretty impressive to me. And yeah, that hog was huge. The whole thing was in response to something some other guy brought up about he wanted to see real field data before he would give the round any respect. So there ya go. Kills giant 300 lb. hog, will most likely be adequate for self-defense, esp. in the absence of conflicting data.

I don't know if anyone here is interested, but I am planning on doing some testing of my own real soon. Nothing uber-high-speed, just some phone books I have been hanging onto. I plan to shoot at least one ea. of 5 different calibers and take some measurements and photos. Nothing like seeing for yourself. Of course, all it really proves is what bullets do to wet paper, right? I'm going to try and be at least a little bit scientific and cover a target with some jacket and/or t-shirt material. If you guys have any other cost-effective suggestions (I am not going to make ballistic gelatin and hump it two miles in the woods,though) let me know and I will give it a try.

Last edited by TX_RGR; July 24, 2005 at 02:57 AM. Reason: just saw omega's post
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Old July 24, 2005, 04:07 AM   #25
Sum1_Special
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TX_RGR, Thanks for contributing to the thread. I'm looking forward to see some ballistic tests done on this round. I have always had respect for the 7.62x25(hell, I have respect for .25 acp ), but many people don't seem to trust it. The hog story tells a bit of what this round can really do, and I'll be waiting for that test .
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