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Old June 26, 1999, 01:50 AM   #1
Kiwi
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I just can't find the best combination in this issue, maybe some of you would have comments or solutions..........

Starts from goggles, the Bolle makes the best tactical goggles out there, tried the X500 Attacker model and very happy with it, but the down side of them is you can't look through the iron sights (MP5 with A2 solid stock)due to the frame being so large.
However, they also make another model called T800 which is simply perfect.

Now comes to helmet, the traditional Kevlar PASGT helmet works perfectly with the T800 goggles, but the Kevlar helmet was not designed for bullet resistance. The winner of helmet would have to be RBR Level IIIa protection helmets (model Combat MK III being the best personal choice) They don't just offer bullet resistance protection, but are also extremely light weight (which is important for assault team).

Now RBR helmet and T800 goggles.......
If the goggles were worn under the helmet (strap on your head), there is not a problem, but most people wear their goggles over the helmet (so it's more flexible when you don't need them----just pull the goggles up on the helmet) in that case, the head hardness buckles from the helmet would get on the way of the T800's rubber type face seal and making it extremely uncomfortable.
I've tries tactial glasses like PO and Oakley, but I personally don't really like them, there are just too much gap between your face and the protection area, and not being solidly worn on you.

Would any tactical members or mil. CQB operators have suggestions on this one?

Thanks

Kiwi
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Old June 26, 1999, 06:50 AM   #2
David Schmidbauer
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Kiwi:

No sure what the different designations on the helmet are but I can tell you this. Having had to wear a helmet for many years I decided to test one for bullet resistance. Remember, the one I tested, like me, was a standard Government Issue Kevlar Helmet. All testing done was from 7 yards (pistol) and 100 yards (rifle).

Pistol bullets tested -

9 Minimum - Hollow Points (Black Tallon, Hydra-shok, Cor-bon, Triton)
FMJ
45 ACP - Same plus Lead Wadcutter

Rifle bullets tested -

.223 FMJ
.308 FMJ

Results - Helmet stopped ALL pistol bullets... none penitrated through the helmet! NOW... while none of the bullets penitrated a few of them did make large "Dents" in the helmet. This may have been (and I believe) because of the structural intregrety of the helmet had been compromised by previous bullets. Still, I would think from the look of the inside of the helmet that if someone was wearing it when struck at best he would have a doosey of a headache; at worst a concusion.

Rifle Bullets? Don't ask! Some things are better left to the imagination.

FWIW I also tested the GI Flak-jacket. Summed up it will stop all EXPANDABLE handgun ammo and 12 gauge buck/slugs. It will not stop FMJ handgun ammo nor rifle ammo (soft point or FMJ)

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"



[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited June 26, 1999).]
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Old June 26, 1999, 11:26 AM   #3
David Schmidbauer
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> getting the tested helmet in hand was an interesting revelation. <

Ain't it. I've still got the one I tested and there is still some HPs stuck in it.



------------------
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NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
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Old June 26, 1999, 08:22 PM   #4
smoker911
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Kiwi,

I recently purchased a pair of Bolle T800, and I also plan on replacing my standard issue PASGT with a RBR combat MK3. However, after reading your post I'm having some reservation with respect to the combat mk3.

One thing you had mentioned is that when the T800 is worn from within the MK3 helment, there is no interference with the helmet's head harness buckel.

My quesiton to you is this: if there is no interferenc from the head harness while wearing your gogggle inside the helment, why should there be interference when the T800 is worn over the helmet - In therory the face gasket should still clear the helmet's buckel system (the only difference is having more slack in the goggle while wearing outside of the helmet}. Could you please elaborate?? I a bit confuse.

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Old June 26, 1999, 10:12 PM   #5
Kiwi
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smoker911:

I hope you could understand what I'm trying to explain, it's a kind of hard for me to describe it.

When T800 is worn inside, the hardness buckles would actually still interfer with the goggles' "side frames" (both ends of T800) since the buckles have no pressure toward your face but downward to the chin cup, there is "not much" discomfort coming from the buckles.

When T800 is worn from the outside, the goggles'rubber type face gasket would give pressure directly toward the buckles then toward your face which makes it quite uncomfortable.

Kiwi

P.S. The one I tried on with my goggles was actually RBR Defender MkIII model, not Combat MkIII, but I assume they have the same hardness system according to Botach. I'm still waiting for my Combat MkIII from them.
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Old June 27, 1999, 04:00 AM   #6
blades67
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Kiwi - A combo I have used with much success has been the G.I. Goggles, sun, wind and dust,(NSN 8465-01-004-2893 I believe) with the PASGT Kevlar helmet. I know you may think these goggles are crap, but they're cheap as hell and buggering them up doesn't hurt like it does when your Bolle's get hammered. Put some Fog-X on the inside of the lens and they work as well as the Bolle's. The frame won't (didn't for me) interfere with the HK's iron sights either.

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Old June 27, 1999, 07:49 AM   #7
smoker911
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OK, Kiwi…now I understand your dilemma! Looks like I'm going to end up with the same problem if I buy the Combat MK3. Gee, I’m really happy with the T800’s low profile design. Now I have to look for another goggle that will work with the MK3.

Have you ever heard of "JT Racing"? JT goggles are marketed for use in paintball. They are design to with stand paintball fire at 300 FPS. The lenses in JT spectra system are made from LEXAN. My JT have a Spectra thermal lens that’s very comfortable + it will never fog. What's more, I even test shot my JT spectra from a distant of 15 yards with 12-gauge buckshot. Results: ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE TO LENS. However, The JT is a bit bulkier than the T800, but not quit as big as the “Bolle attacker”

Kiwi, would you consider sticking with the standard PASGT to accommodate you T800? Also RBR makes a PASGT with level IIIA protection; however, if it uses the same harness system you may still run into the same problem. How about giving RBR a call and hear what they have to say.

Good Luck,

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Old June 27, 1999, 11:21 AM   #8
Kiwi
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smoker911:

I'll have to say I never even thought of the JT goggles before, from what you said they sound quite amazing for being paintball goggles! I'll definitely look into it now.

From what I see on RBR's catalogue, like you said all their helmets use the exact same hardness system, results from them would probability be very similar regarding what style of helmet they are. In this issue, I think the helmet is far more important than goggles, I'll stick to Combat MkIII and sort out the goggles later. PO and Oakley glasses might going to have to be my option when I got the helmet.

blade67:

Yes, you're right! When I first read "G.I. goggles" I did think they were cheap, but who said they don't work? I don't think many officers/constables use Parker pen to write their reports instead of 99 cents ones from supermarket.
If I can recall right, I think I've seen some LAPD SWAT boys used them a few years back (before they made an order with Oakley goggles and glasses). I'll definitely look into that as well.

And for David Schmidbauer and Erick:

Thanks for your responds, it's interesting to hear about the ballistic tests, I wouldn't mind to hear more about it from others.

Thanks to all...

Kiwi

[This message has been edited by Kiwi (edited June 27, 1999).]
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Old June 27, 1999, 04:31 PM   #9
freefinkelmann
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David,
I also tried testing on a GI flak vest and was wondering what you had the vest mounted on. My results were different.

It stopped:
22 solids and HP's

9mm FMJ

45acp 185gr Silvertips
FMJ
230gr Golden Sabres

50AE FMJ
325gr JHP

12 Gauge 00 and 000 buck

Didn't stop:

12 gauge 3" HP slugs

The slug went right through the front and back panel like it wasn't there.

Curious about the difference and if when the vest is on an object with mass it will stop less then it does already.

Overall, for the price, I was very surprised what it did stop.

------------------
lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate
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Old June 27, 1999, 06:47 PM   #10
smoker911
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KiWi,

Here are some specs for the Spectra goggles. I got it off from JT's home page - http://www.jtusa.com /

-Spectra Field of Vision.
The core of the Spectra System is the incredible Spectra Thermal Goggle. With 260 degrees of peripheral vision, this goggle provides the greatest range of vision both horizontally and vertically of any on the market. Lexan lenses offer state of the art quality in optical clarity, scratch resistance and impact strength with a thickness of 0.10" and a coating of super-tough, anti-scratch silicone.


**** Bolle's T800 is made from 2.2 mm polycarbonate lens.

**** JT Lens is made from 0.10"(inch)Lexan. If you were to covert 0.10" into metric, it would equal 2.5mm - essentially... a bit thicker than Bolle's T800.


-Fit.
Famous for its comfortable fit, all Spectra models include a special split nose piece that provides personal fit but does not restrict breathing. This feature and an anatomical face fit make the Spectra the most comfortable fitting goggle on the market with any choice of face foam.

-Controlled Ventilation.
As the performance winner, only the Spectra utilizes JT's exclusive Controlled Ventilation System. This system of air flow features strategically placed baffles that control inhaled and exhaled air that eliminate moisture condensation within the goggle.

Spectra leads the Paintball Industry as the most technically advanced goggle system ever designed. The Spectra System is used and endorsed by professional teams worldwide.

**** As an option for the Spectra, JT also offers a disposable clear tear off. The tear-off is placed in the front of the lens. You simple tear it away when your lens becomes dirty - similar to what they use in motocross racing.

Kiwi, Once I received (2 to three weeks) my Combat Mark3 I'll let you know how my spectra intergrate with it.

Smoker911

[This message has been edited by smoker911 (edited June 27, 1999).]
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Old June 28, 1999, 07:43 AM   #11
Kiwi
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smoker911:

Thanks for your valuable info. on JT goggles, they really sound whole lot more serious than paintball goggles. I'll see if I can find a pair down here to look at.
I'll also let you know how my T800 goes with Combat MkIII when the helmet arrived.

Keep in touch!

Kiwi
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Old June 28, 1999, 09:27 PM   #12
Grenadier2
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Smoker911,

You mean birdshot, right? I know JTs are great goggles, but......

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Old June 29, 1999, 08:26 AM   #13
smoker911
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Grenadier2,

Thanks for correcting me - I dropped the ball on that one. You're right. What I really meant was "BIRDSHOT". Definitely NOT "BUCKSHOT".

Smoker911



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Old July 7, 1999, 06:19 PM   #14
Futo Inu
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Kiwi, what language are you speaking? It appears to be a dialect of English. I take it this is an LEO or military discussion. Or should we really be concerned about these types of defenses as hard-core civis? I suppose with Y2K and all... Are there really any non-LEO folks posting on this thread who get geared up with this stuff? I don't want to miss something I should think about for Y2K EOTWAWKI.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 07, 1999).]
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Old July 7, 1999, 07:52 PM   #15
Kiwi
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Futo Inu:

Don't you think this topic is a bit too much for Y2K? Wearing a helmet on the street or at home......?

Kiwi
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Old July 8, 1999, 12:35 AM   #16
4V50 Gary
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I saw a demonstration involving a US Army helmet and a lookalike civilian police helmet (it may have been RPB). From a distance of 7 yards, no handgun bullet (9mm, 40 S&W, .357 mag, 45 ACP) penetrated either helmet. The civilian police brain bucket proved itself superior in that the inside was not buckled from the impact of the bullet. On the Army helmet, that would have been a substantially ouchie if not a major concussion. I'll take the civie bucket.

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Old July 8, 1999, 05:03 PM   #17
pete80
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Good, I'll just have to put my rounds between the eyes, I like the challenge! Oh yeah, slugs will eat right through IIIA vest when "worn" by someone or something!
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Old August 10, 1999, 02:09 AM   #18
Kiwi
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smoker911:

Just got my RBR helmet today, it works perfectly with T800, the buckles from hardness is actually position quite high up on the corner on the side which makes them to have no interference with the goggles.

What about your Spectra goggles, do they work fine with Combat MKIII?

Kiwi

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Old August 13, 1999, 03:31 PM   #19
TLH
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Kiwi,
Goggles outside helmet, no matter what kind.
I'm assuming your LEO so if your dealing with an entry, high risk warrant or hostage rescue, get rid of the goggles as soon as the breach is made. If you have to work in the goggles cant the MP5 to it's side when shouldered. You can use the sights then.
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Old August 13, 1999, 09:22 PM   #20
Kiwi
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TLH:

Thanks for your advice, I guess getting rid of them is another option, I just never thought of it.

Kiwi

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Old August 14, 1999, 01:17 AM   #21
TLH
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Kiwi,
The goggles are used for protection from flying splinters if you use a ram and possible flying dust and particles if a NFD (flashbang) is deployed. When your past that point they are an impediment. Just strip them off the helmet once inside and FIDO ("screw" it, drive on). You can come back and get them later.
The best vision possible is one of the most important elements of working safely. If they won't stop a bullet why mess with them once inside ??? Why you don't employ gas when you don't have to, working in a mask is a REAL pain.
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Old August 16, 1999, 11:11 AM   #22
smoker911
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Kiwi,

Since my RBR is still on back order, I couldn't test it with my T-800 or the spectra. I'm glad you confirmed that the bolle works well with the RBR, because I really like the low profile design of the T-800.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by smoker911 (edited August 16, 1999).]
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Old August 18, 1999, 04:50 PM   #23
MountainMan44
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I will stick with my C-THiPS (Concrete Tactical Head Protection System) It is 8 inches of ballistic concrete reinforced with kevlar paneling. The face shield is 4 inch thick ballistic plasto-view. (Imagine an 85 pound motorcycle helmet)

My own testing of the helmet yeilded the following results:

Test environment: Subject (me) seated in chair at 15 yards from muzzle. 77 degrees, 3mph crosswind, DOW-JONES around 11,000.

The following rounds were completely repelled:

22LR handgun, .32, .380, .35 Nambu, .38 Special, .357 Magnum (125 JHP), .351 Laramie, 1" Musket Ball, 50AE, Aluminum Bat, Kung-Fu Star, Mace, Machette, 7mm Magnum (Thompson Contender)

The following chipped the helmet:

.257 Waylan, .35 Wheelan, .380 Wailin',.308 Winchester, .338 Win Mag,.416 Rigby, .417 Gumby, .458 Winchester, .460 Weatherby, .50 BMG, .800 Cleveland, .935 McGillicudy

The following left a .5" divot and caused my head to rock back a bit:

2" Hyper-Velocity Kinetic Energy Rocket (Huey-Launched)
70mm cannon
120mm Howitzer
Elephant Shoulder-launched cruise missle
(this actually knocked me over and broke six ribs before destroying a convenience store 400 miles away- helmet intact.)

Further testing to follow.


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Old August 18, 1999, 05:02 PM   #24
Coinneach
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Sheesh. Shoulda read the whole post... MM44, you really need to put some kind of disclaimer up there.
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