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Old July 20, 2005, 05:58 PM   #51
Bravo25
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From what I understand 2 shots to COM may momentarily halt your attacker, but may not stop him. This moment of hesitation is the point where the head will be the most still. If after the initial shock they continue towards you it is time to turn out the lights.
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Old July 20, 2005, 06:03 PM   #52
big daddy 9mm
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to me it seems that...

I would aim for the chest but I do think IT is bad to shoot for the head if forced.
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Old July 21, 2005, 10:00 AM   #53
Glenn E. Meyer
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What?
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Old July 21, 2005, 10:48 AM   #54
OBIWAN
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I like something I read by Pat Rogers recently

Don't wanna paraphrase...this stuff is golden!

One of the problems with training is how we define things.
For example, the Mozambique as Cooper taught it was a Hammer to the chest (the term "double tap" not being sufficintly definied), than pause to steady and take the head shot.
Having personally experienced this, my advice is that there isn't a whole lot of time to pause (unless you want to spend the rest of your life waiting for the perfect shot...). The Failure Drill is 3 rapid shots. We defined it that way at Gunsite as soon as Cooper sold the place.
Head shots are difficult and the brain is protected from kinetic energy, but let's face it. A shot to the jaw may not kill your opponent but it will probably end the fight.
Don't think so? Remember the last time someone laid one on your snotlocker? Remember all those little spermy things swimming before your eyes? What kind of immediate response could you have provided?
Even without it being a kill shot, it can keep him from killing you while you follow through, ease to reset, and acquire another flash sight picture- and start looking for someone else to fight.....
There are times that head shots are indicated, as well as elbows, feet and hands.
Pelvic shots are not normally viable, but if that is all you have available, it ain't gonna' make him feel any better either. Be prepared to follow up.

I teach it this way.
Standard response: Two rounds, center mass. (Don't get locked into this one)
Failure Drill: Hammer body, single brain. I don't use the term "head". I want it more defined.
Non Standard Response (NSR): Shoot center mass of what you have until the threat is eliminated.

The problem with an NSR is that a pistol may not be viable if your bad guy de jour is wearing a hard shirt, or leather jacket etc. All your in gun ammo will be expended for naught.
The NSR is excellent with an M4 of course, but we also teach Hammer Chest/ Hammer Head for specific reasons.
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Old July 21, 2005, 11:30 AM   #55
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I prefer not to take anyone's word for something that I can readily verify for myself. Whether that person is a 30 year street cop veteran of the South Bronx, or, like Ayoob, a part time cop on a 3 officer department who MIGHT take one or two barking dog reports in a month. Literally. Instead of taking the word of a guy who makes a full time living writing about what he does part time, why don't you call a homicide cop at a busy police department and ask him how many legitimate self defense shooters he's seen prosecuted? I mean, if you really want to know that is.
Or I could do like I said, and listen to the cops that taught my CCL class who agree with Ayoob.
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Old July 21, 2005, 11:33 AM   #56
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I know we're talking about a civilian situation here, but........

When Col Charlie Beckwith briefed President Carter and his Cabinet officers on Operation Rice Bowl, the Iranian Hostage Rescue mission, Warren Christopher (Dep Sec State) asked what would happen if any of the Iranians interfered with the Delta operators during the mission.

"Shoot them" was Beckwith's reply,
"Shoot them?" Christopher asked,
"Yes sir, twice in the head"
"Couldn't you just shoot them in the shoulder or something?" Christopher demanded.

So, yes I guess it is malicious.....................................
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Old July 21, 2005, 11:55 AM   #57
FrankDrebin
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Or I could do like I said, and listen to the cops that taught my CCL class who agree with Ayoob.
You can listen to whomever you choose. Why do you suppose Ayoob has so much credibility by the way? Police experience? Because he writes magazine articles? What is it?
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Old July 21, 2005, 12:09 PM   #58
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Personally, I don't think that it follows naturally that Ayoob's part time police status would make his ideas inferior to those of a full time policeman.

One could claim that a mechanic understands a car better than an automotive engineer, because one works with cars all day, every day, and the other just sits at a desk. I don't think that's true though.

I am not trying to promote Ayoob either, but I don't think he should be discounted just because he's not a daily officer.
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Old July 21, 2005, 12:45 PM   #59
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In Texas this would fall under two sections

Deadly Force and Use of Force. You can use deadly force against deadly force. Force is used till the person attacking you stops. The guy that had the knife who was shot was down on the floor so he would be considered stopped. You cant run over and shoot him to kill him. Now if he gets off the floor and comes back at you you can use force to stop him again. Same with the guy who ran away from the car. You can use the necessary force to detain him for the police but you cant shoot him unless he progresses to use of deadly force.
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Old July 31, 2005, 11:40 PM   #60
pax
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You can listen to whomever you choose. Why do you suppose Ayoob has so much credibility by the way? Police experience? Because he writes magazine articles? What is it?
I have here sitting in front of me Massad Ayoob's nine page list of credentials and references.

How long would yours be?

He lists instructional experience going back for over 30 years, at 19 different schools.

How far does yours go back? How many schools are on it?

He's the National Chairman of the committee on police firearms training for ASLET. Who are you, again?

His personal training list looks like he got bored before he finished writing down all the courses he's taken and the places he's gone and the people he's trained with. How many could you list?

Sure, he only works "part-time" as a police officer. That's with the rank of Captain. He's in charge of training for his department. And he's been a cop since 1972. How long have you been in?

He's "only a part-time" cop because he trains between 800 to 1200 people a year, while appearing as an expert witness in various court cases, while writing more magazine articles, books, and other publications than most people have on their bookshelves.

He's got 17 lawyers in 12 states ready to swear that he's an expert in his field and knows what he's talking about. How many lawyers -- in how many states -- would say the same of you?

But go ahead and tear down the man's good name, anyway.

pax

I've read more articles than he's written, so I'm the expert! -- some internet wag
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Old July 31, 2005, 11:44 PM   #61
big daddy 9mm
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I meant to say that it is NOT bad to aim for the head if forced. .....its very effective.
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Old August 1, 2005, 11:04 AM   #62
Mute
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Laws vary from state to state, but I can't name one that would consider the use of a firearm not to be the use of lethal force. You may choose to aim for his pinky toe, but as far as the courts are concerned, you had better be justified in needing to use the gun. Period.
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Old August 1, 2005, 02:33 PM   #63
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Quote:
I have here sitting in front of me Massad Ayoob's nine page list of credentials and references.

How long would yours be?
It isn't the quantity, but the quality. Ayoob's articles are often rife with problems, poor math, poor assumptions, and misinterrpetations. It isn't as if his gun rag publications are peer-reviewed and I don't know that his books are either (or not).

Putting blind faith into the words of a self-described expert is not prudent especially when the expert's words don't hold up to scrutiny.
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Old August 2, 2005, 12:12 AM   #64
pax
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self-described expert
Let's talk about self-described experts, shall we?

By definition, a "self-described" expert is someone that few or no other people would acknowledge as an expert, someone whom only himself would call an expert. A self-described expert might be, for instance, an anonymous somebody on an internet forum. The self-described expert probably does not have a single credential, possibly has never worn a badge, and probably has never taught a single class, but nevertheless holds forth as if he'd done all those things or had somehow simply absorbed the knowledge to criticize those who had. Of course, if you were to ask anyone outside of the self-described expert's favorite forum stomping grounds, well, no one's ever heard of the guy -- and no one except himself would give a rat's hind end for his opinion. That is what a self-described expert looks like.

A true expert, on the other hand, would have experience both as a student and as an instructor going back ... oh, say, three decades or so, and at a wide variety of schools. He would be quoted as an authoritative source in a dozen or more books. If he claimed knowledge of the law enforcement field, he would have references from major names in law enforcement in big cities across the nation. He might be the key instructor in several videos widely used in police training nationwide, for instance. If he claimed legal expertise, he would have more than a dozen lawyers ready to vouch for his expertise and professionalism. If he claimed expertise as a shooter, you could expect such a person would have at least a couple dozen major competitions under his belt -- and would have won or placed in at least a few of those. That's what an expert looks like.

Is an expert sometimes wrong? Sure. Is a "self-described expert," an anonymous internet nobody, occasionally right? Sure. But only a fool sneers at the expert simply because he is an expert.

*shrug* Suit yourself. Most folks do, anyway.

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