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Old July 17, 2005, 02:37 PM   #26
butch50
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Frank: Note that I said that I never carry a gun into a bar. Not only would that be a bad idea, in Texas it is not legal. We are not allowed to carry, even when licensed, into an establishment that makes more than 51% of it's revenue from selling alcolholic drinks on the premises. So that is not a situation I will find myself in, and I ruled that one out. Not only that but in my earlier years when I did frequent bars I never got into one fight inside or outside one.

Also, I said that there is no law that requires me to submit to physical harm of any level for any reason. And I stand by that. I have a right to self defense under any circumstances, and that is absolutely true in every state in the Union.

I also said that only after I had tried to walk away from the agressor, and/or had tried to talk him down, and/or that for whatever reason you want to dream up I was unable (not unwilling) to walk away, then I would bring the gun out and threaten him with it.

If under those circumstances he still attacked, yes I would shoot him. If someone still attacks with a gun pointed at him then you can bet there is going to be significant harm done if he is successful with his attack, he will no doubt be of diminished mental capacity to attack in the face of a cocked and aimed gun at close range. He is going to be a psyco and/or he is going to be high and/or intoxicated, and he is also not likely to stop like a gentleman after giving one a bloody nose, now is he?

You have to take all of the above into account when you read my response. This is a what-if scenario so I have tried to define it down to the point of where I would feel justified in pulling and shooting.

I did not say that the DA would not have issues with my actions, but I would be within my rights. Just because a DA or a policeman may not see it my way does not mean I do not have the right to use deadly force in that set of circumstances.
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Old July 17, 2005, 02:40 PM   #27
FrankDrebin
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Lets just say I trust a jury of my peers more than a man intent on beating my brains out. A hung jury is a good jury for the defense.
First, you have to get a jury of your peers. Good luck in my county.....
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Old July 17, 2005, 02:44 PM   #28
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First, you have to get a jury of your peers. Good luck in my county.....
I'll make a note of that and stay the heck out of your county.
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Old July 17, 2005, 04:10 PM   #29
azspyder
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Someone asked if I had the Arizona statures pertaining to this subject. Here they are:

13-404. Justification; self-defense

A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:

1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or

2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or

3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:

(a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and

(b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.


13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:00 PM   #30
HighValleyRanch
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How far will he go?

Frank,
How are you determining in advance that you are only going to get a beating? How are you determining that he will stop once you are knocked out? How do you know he won't take it to the final step?

It seems that before one is willing to get into any physical encounter, you should also be willing to assume that either party might carry it to the final conclusion. Fighting is not a game! No kings-x or time outs.

If I am not carrying and I have to use my martial arts to defend myself, that is still the criterial. Am I willing to die or kill over this issue, not can I take a beating or beat the opponent up. Once it starts, there is no telling the level it will be brought to.
Fighting is dam serious business.

When confronting someone, you do not know if their intentions, if they have a knife, or are carrying concealed. You must always assume the worst. There is no "good guy waits for the bad guy to draw first" in real life.

The deputies even empahsized in class that if you are fighting fair, you are losing the battle!
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:05 PM   #31
Edison Carter
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XBreath, your statements on not getting into a fight seem rather naive to me.

Every so-called "fight" I have been in, boiled down to somebody deciding to put a major hurt on me, pretty much out of the blue.

No "you spilled my drink!" or "your momma!"

Some people are just that way.

"I had almost enough time to think, "Oh, S***!"

People DO get killed with ONE punch. You can be killed so easily with one good strike into the nose.

My last altercation got me 5 punches to the nose, and $30,000 of reconstructive surgery. My attacker was 50 pounds lighter, and three inches shorter than me, so much for "disparity of force".
Maybe I should have asked him how many times he planned to hit me with how many foot-pounds of force. If once is not enough, is three times ok with everybody?


When somebody means to hurt me with intent, I don't plan to goof around like some of you guys who view fights as recreation.

EC
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:20 PM   #32
XavierBreath
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XBreath, your statements on not getting into a fight seem rather naive to me.
It would only seem naive to one who cannot manage to avoid a fist fight I suppose. I'm 47 years old with many miles of travel in different countries and on board ship in the Navy behind me. I have seen some serious tempers flare over things that do indeed matter. I have lived through conditions that many would not tolerate. I have seen immature men get into fist fights over more mickey mouse BS than I can count. The one common denominator was pride, ego and neither man backing down. If you cannot control your pride and ego, you will continue to get into fights. Some people just like to fight I guess, and that's OK too. In my opinion though, they should not carry a gun. If they cannot control their emotions, thoughts, mouth, arms and legs, then they cannot control their trigger finger. If they cannot see trouble fermenting before it explodes, then they will be unable to avoid using the gun. The last fist fight I was in was in the 5th grade. I came close a couple of times as a man, especially when I was a new boot in the fleet, but I also had enough sense to back down. The naivity is believing that a fist fight is unavoidable. I'll put on my Nomex now.
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:26 PM   #33
Runsalone
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Hmmmmmmm........

http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4647.php
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:29 PM   #34
butch50
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Xavier: Well said.

I am 52, was in the Army, have been in construction and on construction sites for going on 30 years. Construction is a very stress filled occupation and there is plenty of opportunity to lose your head and people soemtimes do. I have lived a life that often took me into places that Angels feared to tread, and traveled in some rough places. My last fistfight was when I was 15 and I stood up to a bully that was picking on a yonger and very much smaller kid, the bully was a lot bigger than me too. I have had any number of opportunities to fight, and have walked away from most of them. I have talked more than a few people off the ledge of wanting to fight me. Unless you are just backed into a physical corner by a psycho, which can happen, you will 99.99% of the time have an available means of not getting into a fight. If you are a real man that is. If you are not a real man, then you will end up in a fight every time.
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‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:31 PM   #35
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http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum1551.php
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:33 PM   #36
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http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dl...eitemid=841532
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:38 PM   #37
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Anyone catch my meaning yet?

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/cgi-...ID=-1610624172



Got to be another way guys!!! Right?
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:43 PM   #38
FrankDrebin
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Quote:
1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
Sounds like in AZ you're only allowed to use deadly force to counter deadly force......not simply "bodily harm" that you might suffer from an assault and battery.

Quote:
Frank,
How are you determining in advance that you are only going to get a beating? How are you determining that he will stop once you are knocked out? How do you know he won't take it to the final step?
I know what I consider reasonable, and it's not to kill someone because they gave you a bloody nose. If you can convince the prosecutor or jury why you needed to shoot someone when you don't have a mark on you and the other guy is dead and unarmed, more power to you.
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:52 PM   #39
Edison Carter
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XB,

If a man punches you in the face, or lays a 2x4 to the back of your head, I'll be happy to taunt you about how you "shoulda" avoided the fight.

EC
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Old July 17, 2005, 05:58 PM   #40
XavierBreath
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EC,
If it happens, I'll take your taunts in stride.
Best,
XB
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Old July 17, 2005, 06:04 PM   #41
butch50
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Runsalone:

I am not about to start carrying a variety of weapons suitable to any level of threat. I would need a tool belt to do that, and it isn't necessary.

Frank:

You are obviously going to have to get your nose broken before you pull your gun, which is your absolute right. You can take as much of a pounding as you think necessary to convince a jury that you needed to pull the gun and shoot.

I personally don't think you should find yourself in a position to have to worry about it at all - But if you do then do what you think is best for your.

Given the fact that I will have to be physically cornered by a psycho before I pull, and he will still have to attack into a gun before I shoot - then I believe any reasonable person will believe that I needed deadly force at that time.
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‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446

‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old July 17, 2005, 06:31 PM   #42
azspyder
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Frank, I don't want to be anal about this, but you sort missed the previous section where it says:
a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.
AZ courts have interpreted this time and again to mean that a victim is justified in defending himself with deadly force against "unlawful physical force". Obviously a victim has no way of knowing in advance how serious the bodily injury may be and , by the time he does know, its too late. God, I love this state!
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Old July 17, 2005, 06:32 PM   #43
FrankDrebin
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Quote:
Frank:

You are obviously going to have to get your nose broken before you pull your gun, which is your absolute right. You can take as much of a pounding as you think necessary to convince a jury that you needed to pull the gun and shoot.
I've had my nose broken in a fight and never took my gun out of the holster. That's the best place for your gun to be if you're not confronting deadly force. I'll take as much of a pounding as I think is justified before using deadly force against someone, who, up to that point, has committed only a misdemeanor against me. Rest assured, it will take more than just a punch to the face for me to feel justified in shooting someone, like maybe if there were more than just one of them.
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Old July 17, 2005, 06:36 PM   #44
FrankDrebin
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Quote:
Frank, I don't want to be anal about this, but you sort missed the previous section where it says:
a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.
AZ courts have interpreted this time and again to mean that a victim is justified in defending himself with deadly force against "unlawful physical force". Obviously a victim has no way of knowing in advance how serious the bodily injury may be and , by the time he does know, its too late. God, I love this state!
I saw the first section just fine. And the link between the first and the second section was AND, not OR.

Quote:
A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, AND

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
Can you post the case law that says "unlawful physical force" is the same as
"the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force"? The statute is pretty clear: You can only use deadly force to counter deadly force. If a guy swinging his fist at you is "deadly force", that's up to the judge or jury to decide whether your fear was reasonable. The statute looked pretty clear to me, but I'd like to see the case law.

Quote:
Obviously a victim has no way of knowing in advance how serious the bodily injury may be and , by the time he does know, its too late. God, I love this state!
So why not just pull out your gun and shoot a guy who says "I'm gonna kick your a$$!!" After all, you don't know where he's going to stop if you let him start.
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Old July 17, 2005, 06:47 PM   #45
azspyder
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I'll let you do your own research, Frank. I got my info from a Deputy County Attorney in Phoenix. That's the agency that would decide whether or not to charge you.

You ask
"So why not just pull out your gun and shoot a guy who says "I'm gonna kick your a$$!!" After all, you don't know where he's going to stop if you let him start."

Because I'm adult, Frank. I haven't been in a fist fight since I was 15. Which shows that I must have some skills in getting out of tight spots. But, at my age, if someone physically starts one with me, I'll finish it the best way I can with the least amount of damage to me.
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Old July 17, 2005, 07:56 PM   #46
butch50
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Frank:

Just curious, but how many fights have you been in since you turned say 18?
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‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446

‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old July 17, 2005, 08:03 PM   #47
Runsalone
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"Runsalone:

I am not about to start carrying a variety of weapons suitable to any level of threat. I would need a tool belt to do that, and it isn't necessary."


Sigh.......this is why I never post, I didnt mean to use them all, or wear a tool belt, and I certainly meant no disrespect or was trying to be a smartarse

My point was there is a VARIETY of other tools to choose from to deal with this very type of situation, without resorting to killing, that could even be deployed before you would bring a pistol into play in the same situation.

If you deem there not needed that only leaves you with a few options fight, run,shoot or have the floor mopped with your rump. Obviously fight and shoot are horrible options you may not be able to run and option four sucks terds. A blast of O.C. to the attackers face(or palm strike to the chin, or a big fat finger in the eye!) might just buy you the extra second or two to exit stage right, and save all parties involved more serious harm. My personal idea is to create a window in the situation however I must then run like the wind blows. Not very Navy Seal of me I know.

I personally do not carry any of the above, just was adding my opinion for some one with the concerns you mentioned. No foulness was meant just trying to participate for a change.

Whatever you choose be safe and get home to yours at the end of the day.
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Old July 17, 2005, 08:16 PM   #48
XavierBreath
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Lets examine the dynamics of two men in a fist fight.

Two men meet.
Two men disagree.
Two men agree to not back down.
Two men throw punches.
Two men roll on the floor.
Two men throw more punches and maybe a few kicks.
One man backs down or cannot continue.
One man "wins".

Regardless of the little nuances, that is the gist of a fist fight. So, if you want to avoid a fist fight, either agree to disagree, agree with what you don't agree with, or back down. It ain't rocket science that many men walk this earth without behaving like they are still in elementary school. Your fists do not give you the right to force your views on someone else any more than your gun does.

Runsalone, I appreciated your posts, and they do give a new wrinkle to the whole argument. Makes me think. Still, I tend to use my wits to evade and escape.
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Old July 17, 2005, 08:19 PM   #49
butch50
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Runsalone:

I hope I didn't offend, I certainly didn't mean to .

I have enough problems carrying a pistol and a pocket knife, bundle of keys, cell phone, wallet and briefcase. The brief case often contains a portable laptop, one or two pistols and extra clips and a flashlight amongst other items.

On the other hand Runsalone (nice moniker by the way, sounds kind of Indian) I guess that carrying pepper spray in my brief case wouldn't be much more to handle. I think I will get some spray to carry with me in my brief case and it may come in handy some day.

Good idea!
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‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’ ~ Mahatma Ghandi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446

‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old July 17, 2005, 08:24 PM   #50
mvpel
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http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ne...one_punch.html

Thug killed student with one punch
KILLER: Christopher Kelly

A THUG has been jailed for killing a teenage university student only four weeks after being freed from jail.

Christopher Kelly, 25, punched 19-year-old Danny Davies so savagely that the student went flying backwards and smashed his skull on the road.

...
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