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View Poll Results: Should Scientifically Bred Deer be Allowed in the Trophy Books with Wild Deer?
Yes - Scientifically Bred Deer Should Be Allowed In the Trophy Books 3 6.67%
No - Scientifically Bred Deer Should Not Be allowed in the Trophy Books 42 93.33%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 9, 2005, 09:07 AM   #1
butch50
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Hunting Alternative Livestock?

May 2005 American Hunter Magazine. Page 26. Article: Whitetails on the Auction Block.

A San Antonio livestock auction company held the first ever whitetail deer auction in February. Six hundred bidders shelled out $722,000 with the top bid going at $30,000. 129 lots were sold, some with "registered pedigrees"

"We are glad to get the alternative livestock business into the mainstream" said Karl Kinsel of the Texas Deer Association, a non-profit organization representing 2,000 breeders and deer ranch managers.

Do you hunt alternative livestock or do you hunt deer? Should trophy alternative livestock (scientifically bred deer) be allowed to be recorded in the same trophy books as wild deer?
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Old July 9, 2005, 12:14 PM   #2
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I voted NO. Of course, I find it amusing that people call it "hunting" when they camp out in their shooting blind and wait for a deer to return to an empty feeder where food was provided during the rest of the year and then snipe it.
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Old July 9, 2005, 02:18 PM   #3
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Texas has a lot of places where you can pay to shoot fenced, and in some cases caged big game. I don't get that either - what's the accomplishment?
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Old July 9, 2005, 04:22 PM   #4
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Sigh. I find myself in the odd position of defending my state against such a statement.

While I've never hunted within high fences, I understand much of why they're there. In the Hill Country, high fences are put up not so much to keep the deer in, as to keep the lesser deer [/i]out[/i]. Most ranches with high fences utilize plats of a section (square mile or 640 acres) or better in size. Occasionally some small rancher will put 'em up around half-section pastures, but we're not talking "pasture" in the traditional sense of an open field. We're talking about a rolling piece of land covered with lots of live oak, juniper, mesquite, and prickly pear, where a man can move about for a week and see sign but no deer, if he's not a careful hunter. I don't know what the ratio of deer to acreage on such terrain needs to be to consider it a fair chase. I know it varies with the amount of cover and centralization of nutrition, though.

I don't know of ANY places where a man can pay to shoot caged game. I'd turn 'em in if they did. (Of course, if you're a landowner who's trying to reduce the hog on your property, you're going to eventually build a hog trap, and that does involve putting down a caged animal eventually. But that's trapping, not hunting, and is to a practical end rather than sporting purposes.)

Consider: Any ranch that requires that you shoot a spike or a doe before taking a trophy buck, or which requires that all trophy bucks be 3 years old or better, is practicing scientific game management. Ranch managers have been doing this for decades. Any ranch manager that sees that extra food plots and water is available for wildlife on the property is doing scientific game management. Face it: Scientific game management has found its way into the record books for years. How would you keep 'em out??


A few years ago, I shot the biggest whitetail buck of my life. He was atypical of the region (northern Uvalde County, TX), where most whitetails are only about 100 lbs. This one went 200 lbs on the hoof, and had a nice-sized 8-point rack. I was charmed, and dropped him with my .300 WinMag Sendero. Upon cleaning him, I found that he was well-larded. A couple of weeks later, my step-father-in-law Jim, who owns the ranch, called me up laughing. Seems that he was talking to a neighbor landowner down the road who was bemoaning how the fall rains had washed gullies out under his high-dollar high fences, and he had lost five prize bucks that he had imported from Kansas to improve the genetics! Jim and I had to s****** a little at this, because Jim puts up low fences soley to hold in the cattle he runs on the place. They of course allow deer to move on and off his property, and allowed me to take a Kansas deer by way of Texas. The other ranchowner can of course lay no claims to the deer, because deer are considered to be owned by the State Of Texas, and anyone legally hunting may take one.

The best-laid plans.
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Old July 9, 2005, 04:36 PM   #5
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I don't know how you would be able to keep the record books pure because people will cheat; but it doesn't seem fair to me to compare a wild deer to the offsping of $30,000 purebreds with registered pedigrees that were raised inside fenced areas protected from the wild deer's gene pool.
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Old July 9, 2005, 04:42 PM   #6
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Long Path

Quote:
"I don't know of ANY places where a man can pay to shoot caged game."
Oh, they're out there all right. Seems TX and WV lead the states that have them last time I checked. I've watched covert footage of a few, and they were downright sickening. In one, I watched them release a caged leopard into a confined area. Shooters were right behind the cage and opened up as soon as the cat left the cage . Granted, the footage was shot by some of the animal rights people, but from what I saw, I don't see how it could have been faked. I've heard repeated rumors of one such "ranch" south of Morgantown, WV, some from good sources. Hard to track down the truth as these guys seem to be a close-mouthed and tight-knit bunch. I put them in the same classification as dog or cock fighters, and I really wish they'd stop calling themselves "sportsmen". Gives us a bad name.
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Old July 9, 2005, 08:29 PM   #7
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A canned hunter is the same as cockfighter? It seems that you like to buy into animal rights propaganda. I'm in one the last two free states where game roosters can be fought. They are matched by weight and are bred specifically for what they do. The breeds originated and exist to fight. They do it naturally. They damn sure have a better life than any chicken that you pick up at KFC. It's nothing like shooting a cat in a cage. When the HSUS gets cockfighting made illegal, there going after hunting dogs. Where do you think this hog dogging nonsense that they're trying to get made illegal everywhere is going to lead? If you go after coyotes with Greyhounds or hogs with Argentine Dogos, your days are numbered. When they get done with that, they'll go after trapping. And then they will go after man on animal hunting, piece by piece by piece.
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Old July 9, 2005, 09:47 PM   #8
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The breeds originated and exist to fight. They do it naturally.
And I suppose it's natural for them to have razor sharp steel spurs strapped to their legs too? Or to be confined to a fighting pit so that when one finds he's outmatched, he can't run away (as would naturally happen when two roosters scrap. I've seen roosters fight at the ranch. Never seen 'em fight to the death since one can always run away.) Sorry pal, that's not sport, that's pure and simple blood lust. When I hunt, it's either to put meat in the freezer or to protect livestock. I go for a clean kill and I don't stand over them salivating while they bleed to death.
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Old July 9, 2005, 11:39 PM   #9
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Off topic, but... there was just recently a sizable cock fighting bust in far East Tennessee in the last few weeks. I have seen hundreds of properties in WV, KY, VA, and TN where the roosters are raised specifically for fighting. Like switch blades, owning the knives or roosters is legal, just not carrying them or in the case of roosters-fighting them in most states. It is not my thing. I was in S. America and invited to a cock fight... no thanks. But I had to see at least one bull fight. Reminds me of the movie "Apocalypse Now" and the Russian roulette scene.

On topic.... I don't know how you could ever exclude genetically enhanced big game from being listed in the record books from a practical perspective. I don't particularly like it, but when the state imports elk into an area to increase the breeding stock and establish a wild population... isn't it about the same thing?

The characterization of "Livestock" is not a bad way to look at it. Next thing they will be having deer sperm banks to fertilize the herd. Course you have to catch the does first.
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Old July 10, 2005, 09:14 AM   #10
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Capt Charlie,

Since they've been bred for eons and eons of time to fight with a weapon. It is natural for certain breeds to fight with a knife, gaffs, or a postiza. Just like it is natural for other breeds developed for weaponless fighting to fight without one. The rare running rooster (it's a quality advoided in the breeding of game roosters) in a cockfight loses because he refuses to fight. You obviously know very little about cockfighting. Not unlike your typical anti-hunter, anti-fisherman, or anti-trapper with their lack of knowledge and intolerance towards behaviours that don't hurt other human beings in the slightest. Even the bunny huggers on the Animal Cops shows on the Animal Planet know that game roosters (breeds originated and bred to fight and NOT to eat or lay egss), not your barnyard variety, will fight to the death. I understand it not being one's cup of tea. Hunting out of a stand over a feeder isn't mine. But I won't begrudge someone else from doing it.

As to the question at hand, I think the many deer management schemes / hunting ranches that they have in TX are already like hunting a form of alternative livestock.
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Old July 10, 2005, 09:48 AM   #11
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Quote:
If you go after coyotes with Greyhounds
Not trying to hijack, but do people really do that?
Quote:
breeds originated and bred to fight and NOT to eat or lay egss
Quote:
The rare running rooster (it's a quality advoided in the breeding of game roosters) in a cockfight loses because he refuses to fight.
Been to quite a few cock fights in Vietnam never seen one run.
I did see a 2 pounder get whooped by a 5 pounder, in an unintentional match, the little guy never ran or gave up, he fought harder and meaner than the big one, but in the end we did eat him.
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Old July 10, 2005, 10:04 AM   #12
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I think there are very broad and bright lines between:

A: Hunting wild deer as our Fathers and Fore Fathers did. See Boone and Crocket and Pope and Youg.

B: Managing a captive herd (high fencing) by selective shooting. This is artificially manipulating the end results of the natural process, which is a far cry from A above and a far cry from C below.

C: Buying $30,000 deer that have "registered pedigrees" and managing them inside a high fence securely away from the "ghetto" deer outside the fence.

I don't favor either B or C for being allowed in record books, but the C scenario - the alternative live stock as described by the auction house itself - is an order of magnitude worse than B.

That will be like comparing the running speed of mustang ponies and registered thoroughbreds that cost millions. You will never see a mustang at the race track running in a thoroughbred race. Eventually the B&C and P&Y record books will become meaningless.
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Old July 10, 2005, 05:49 PM   #13
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I've watched covert footage of a few, and they were downright sickening. In one, I watched them release a caged leopard into a confined area.
I remember that video well. That was over 10 years ago!
This is NOT common. I have been a member of the Texas hunting community for over a quarter of a century now, and I have never heard of anyone I know, or anyone known by anyone I know, taking part in such garbage.

Does it happen? Yes, I'm sorry to say, it does. But it's not common. It's not accepted.
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Old July 10, 2005, 06:25 PM   #14
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I have a problem with anything shot behind wire. I heard of a rich Texan shooting a Wapiti in NZ- the drugs that sedated the animal after he was live captured in the wild had not worn off when he was shot- the guide told me that the Wapiti groggily got onto his feet where they had left him just before the guy shot him.

So much for NZ big game hunting.
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Old July 10, 2005, 09:15 PM   #15
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Does it happen? Yes, I'm sorry to say, it does. But it's not common. It's not accepted.
Thanks LP. I'm very glad to hear that (not common, not accepted).
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Old July 10, 2005, 10:15 PM   #16
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I think your a day late a dollar short on this subject! I think you will find most of the B&C records are deer that have been fed on food plots with special diets to grow large horns.

Sure once in a while someome gets that big buck that just comes out of no where. But I bet you will find that buck had a good food source.

There is Corps of Engineer land nere where I live. No one can hunt on the land. Deer are free to roam and once in a while get hit by a car. When the land floods from a big rain the deer are pushed up to the high lands. Let me tell you I have seen some nice bucks on the COE land. But none that would make B&C. With a better food source I'm sure that would change.

Are fore fathers many years ago didn't care to much for horns! they just wanted food. Many fathers I know that went hunting did it just to get out of the house and BS with the buds and if they got a deer! that was just the icing on the cake.

As long as you have people who want to spend money that have money to shoot a deer with big horns it's going to happen. If there is money to be made someone will make it. If they want to hunt that way it's there business! but you and I both know that they really don't know the true meaning of the hunt! Or they do and don't care! Which in my mind don't really make them hunters

I still think you are a Lib
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Old July 11, 2005, 07:44 AM   #17
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Impact: I am so conservative that I sometimes end up agreeing with liberals on some things. Recently I have found myself on the same side as the ACLU on the Patriot Act.

Food plot deer are one thing - that is their natural genetics being enhanced by good eating. Raising pedigreed deer and then mixing them in with a deer herd that is fenced away from all the other deer is a whole lot worse. It doesn't sound like much right now - but imagine 30 years from now. These new super deer will be twice as big as the wild deer. Alternative livestock is a good description.

I personally never hunted for trophy, have never been interested in it, but it is an understandable hunting goal and soon the record books will be filled with the names of the idle wealthy as opposed to hunters. I think there should be separate books for the alternative livestock.
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Old July 11, 2005, 10:19 AM   #18
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In general, I am not much in favor of genetically manipulated animals, or nonnative species, that can get out and mix in the wild environment.

This is one of the big problems that we face environmentally - "exotics", both plants and animals, that wind up getting out of control and outcompeting desirable native species.

For genetically pure strains of organisms, there are also major problems in the loss of genetic material from the living stock, and in the susceptibility to disease of a monoclonal population - essentially, if there is a vulnerability, then every individual is susceptible, because they all carry the same identical code. This causes disease to spread much more rapidly as well as damage/kill much higher percentages.

Genetic manipulation can be beneficial, but it needs to be done with very careful and strict oversight. Exotics, I think are just a bad idea, period.

For anyone interested in exotic/invasive species, here are some nice websites:
http://invasivespecies.gov/
http://www.invasive.org/
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Old July 11, 2005, 04:20 PM   #19
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2 award books

one award book for natural.......in the wild........free roaming

second book for.........farm raised and injected


I can't think too many hunters would dare let his/her name in book 2 :barf:


Let see: Farm raised chickens, goats, cat-fish, cattle, hogs, deer, bear, partridge, turkeys, elk and the list goes on..........

Most of the fantastic hunters I know and call friends don't even tell anyone outside the family circle about his or her BIG ONES.......They don't want to bring in any rif raf to the area they love to hunt. I stand with em on that thought process.
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Old July 11, 2005, 06:44 PM   #20
butch50
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If you pay a ranch owner $20,000 to shoot a trohpy buck on his ranch, you won't be able to keep that "honey hole" a secret. But then the cost will keep the riff raff out anyway. It will just be the people who can easily afford it, or get it as a corporate perk, or get invited so that their vote will be swayed, that will be getting into that "honey hole".

I would never feel good about buying a trophy. But there are plenty of folks out there more than willing to buy their trophies. They just aren't in the same league as real hunters.
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Old July 13, 2005, 09:52 PM   #21
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A canned hunter is the same as cockfighter? It seems that you like to buy into animal rights propaganda. I'm in one the last two free states where game roosters can be fought. They are matched by weight and are bred specifically for what they do. The breeds originated and exist to fight. They do it naturally. They damn sure have a better life than any chicken that you pick up at KFC. It's nothing like shooting a cat in a cage. When the HSUS gets cockfighting made illegal, there going after hunting dogs. Where do you think this hog dogging nonsense that they're trying to get made illegal everywhere is going to lead? If you go after coyotes with Greyhounds or hogs with Argentine Dogos, your days are numbered. When they get done with that, they'll go after trapping. And then they will go after man on animal hunting, piece by piece by piece.
Outstanding post! I totally agree with you MikeP and wanted to let you know you said it extremely well.


I've been around chickens/roosters/cocks/banties<sp off and on all of my life. On more than one occassion I have watched roosters fight until the death. At any time either one of them could have cut and run, they didn't. Cock fighting has long storied roots world wide. In many places it is considered a honorable sporting game/event. More so than dog and horse racing or bullfighting in my opinion.
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Old July 15, 2005, 07:51 PM   #22
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I contacted the Boone and Crockett club and asked about this.

The told me that they were aware of the auction, and of the increasing trend of breeding deer.

They do not allow these deer into their record books.
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Old July 15, 2005, 10:33 PM   #23
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Canned hunts

I have viewed several sites in Texas about hunting, some examples were a place that has 8 feeders on 160 high fenced acres and shoots several "wild, feral hogs " each week, obvoiously some one who either buys trapped hogs or raised hogs and lets people shoot their domestic livestock at will. So long as they get paid, they care not about the sporting aspects of the situation.
A bought animal is not wild or feral, it is a domestic animal as long as it is kept in a confined area.
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Old July 18, 2005, 12:45 PM   #24
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I wonder how many of these $30,000 deer are bringing more than their genes to the new herd, such as Chronic Wasting Disease?

If there is a fence, even if it surrounds the whole state of Texas, it isn't a totally "wild" deer, and in my mind, it doesn't count as much as the deer our deer we shoot outside a fence. However, to each his own. Ted Nugent states he will only eat meat from animals that he has hunted and killed. That doesn't make the rest of us scum because we don't hold his standards and eat an occasional Whopper.
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Old July 18, 2005, 10:08 PM   #25
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When word of those canned hunts of aging lions or leopards first got publicized, hunters all over Texas raised a ruckus against it. The next session of the Legislature saw it outlawed. I don't know the specifics of the penalties, but they're fairly stiff.

There has been some effort at legislation concerning "Penned Hunts", but the argument is (SFAIK) ongoing about "How big must a tract be to not be a pen?" It's one of those deals where the PETA types would call a ten-thousand acre pasture a pen...

I'm no biological scientist, but I worry about diseases in pen-raised deer. I think the trophy thing has gone way beyond reality.

In the FWIW department: My father used to talk about the old days in south Texas pre WW II and before the drouth of the 1950s. Bucks which would dress 200 pounds were not uncommon. SFAIK, that's where the present game ranches have gotten with herd management.

He also commented that 300-lb dresed weights of west Texas mule deer were not at all rare, back before the drouth of the 1950s. Since that time, with the lessened predator control and lessened augmented water supplies, anything around 200 pounds is bragging size. There is little or no management of the mule deer herd, generally. Maybeso a few ranches...

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