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Old July 2, 2005, 02:51 AM   #1
Full Metal Jacket
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.45acp vs.9mm wound ballistics

since the .45 is almost 1/3 bigger than the 9mm, does that mean the permanent cavity will be 1/3 bigger than that of the 9mm, or the temporary cavity? Or both? Or none? Im assuming when its said that the .45 makes a bigger hole it means a bigger wound cavity. Also, what is the role of a temporary wound cavity?
I'm going to bed now. Enough late night ballisitics.
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Old July 2, 2005, 02:53 AM   #2
gudel
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another one?

i have 9mm and 45acp. get both. enough of 45 vs 9 already.
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Old July 2, 2005, 12:11 PM   #3
Marcus
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Wow I don`t think you could pick a topic that`s been covered more than this one. It almost always (okay always...) ends up ugly. Do a search and should find plenty to read on the subject.
Basically it comes down to this,the answer to most of your questions is "not necessarily,but it can`t hurt". It should go without saying that shot placement is paramount,followed by a "compliant target" (a .22 may be very effective on a BG that`s convinced he`ll die if shot and 00 Buck may have almost no immediate effect on a crack crazed maniac blindly intent on his goals) and then good ammo selection. Generally the larger the caliber the less important the last factor becomes to a certain extent. That`s my take on things anyway but then what do I know. Marcus
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:05 PM   #4
big daddy 9mm
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heres the deal...

45acp: heavier bullet moving slower making a wide fairly deep wound




9mm: lighter bullet moving very fast making a little bit narrower but deeper wound
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:12 PM   #5
MeekAndMild
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Well there is more to it than that. You have to figure on the temporary wound channel which occurs during theportion of decelleration the bullet is supersonic versus subsonic.
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:13 PM   #6
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meek and mild

huh....?




can we afford to bullshiit each other on such touchy subjects????


I love life
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:16 PM   #7
stephen426
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How about this to end all arguement... Buy the most powerful gun you can shoot well. When I say shoot well, I don't mean slowly squeezing the trigger at a stationary target. I mean quickly drawing and firing at least double taps into the target.

I can draw my Glock 26 and get on target very quickly. The light recoil of the 9mm allows me to get in quick followup shots. Would I like the greater power of the .40 S&W in the Glock 27? Sure, but I can't control it as well in that little package.
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:18 PM   #8
big daddy 9mm
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oh I forgot

if you have 9mm hollow points that are reliable than you will have about the same size az 45 I would think. assuming it exspand completely.
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:25 PM   #9
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big daddy 9mm,

a 9mm may expand but the penetration will still be less due to the lighter weight. In the end, it all comes down to physics. This site had a pretty good analysis.

http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:40 PM   #10
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Careful stephen426 - you are right that the .45ACP slug has more momentum than the 9mm slug, however, it also has a larger diameter, and so incurs higher drag (resistance) when passing through the medium (flesh).

If you look at some penetration results for 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP all of the same design and by the same manufacturer, they will have approximately equal penetration. The increase in mass (147gr/180gr/230gr) when going up in bullet diameter is just compensating for the increasing drag. To first order, these are equivalent in penetration.
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Old July 2, 2005, 02:30 PM   #11
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AAAAAAAaaarrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Old July 2, 2005, 03:09 PM   #12
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Hi Top, Where you bin?

Quote:
AAAAAAAaaarrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!!
*(&%#@AAAAAAAaaarrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!!^**(#@
snore, snore, snore, snore, [9mm, .45], [9mm, .45], [9mm, .45]. I'm having a damn nightmare snore, snore, snore!!!
Goodnight Mrs. Calabash where ever you are...Yawn!!!!
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Old July 2, 2005, 03:43 PM   #13
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Bullrock..

...I have been here, where have you been? I haven't seen you post in a week or so...got me real worried there. I second your post on this freakin tired a** topic!
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Old July 2, 2005, 05:14 PM   #14
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Top

I've been converted back to wheelies, and spending time on the revolver thread... Maybe what someone should do is, go into the TFL database, copy, and paste all of the .45 vs 9mm threads, and send it to anyone who even comes close to posting this topic again...But, I guess that would be spamming...Yawn...
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Old July 2, 2005, 05:18 PM   #15
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Caleb,

You are right to a degree. A heavier round is partially due to the diameter of the bullet. The extra weight may also be due to a longer bullet as well, which should have no bearing on the drag. I think this is referred to as sectional density?

I think we can argue these types of things until we are blue in the face. Some interesting information can be found on sites such as http://www.theboxotruth.com/ and the other one I posted above. Things often do not work as we imagine they would in the "real world".

Lets put it this way. From what I recall from my high school physics class (not all that much since it seems so damn long ago), every action has an equal and opposite action. In the case of guns, the opposite force of the bullet should translate to a large degree as felt recoil. I know the action and weight of the gun play a big part. I guess the best way to test it would be to fire different caliber bullets out of barrel of the same length and weight, and measure the amount of measurable recoil. That would be decisive evidence as to the energy. An easier way is to also look at the momentum equation which is momentum = mass x velocity. We can also look at the energy equation which is energy = mass x velocity squared. Mass is easily measured as is velocity so the energy of the round is easily determined. I think this is often shown as foot pounds of energy.

Now the most important factor in all of this is how is that energy used and where it is deposited. A bullet passing through the target is wasted energy. At least that is a big arguement for Magsafe and Glaser. What the bullet does inside the body is is also very important. If you are only concerned about the size of the wound channel, you ignore the stretch cavity and crush cavity. The stretch cavity is commonly known as hydrostatic shock, and is often more a factor for dropping someone than having them bleed out.

Good shot placement is often the most critical factor in stopping a threat. Even a .22 LR is deadly in head shots (provided it penetrates into the brain). I will qualify this statement though... The target will most likely not be stationary and you have to shoot at what presents itself. If it is only a center of mass shot, the .22 LR may not be effective due to its lack of penetration to vital organs. With that said, a defensive round should have at least 12" of penetration to be able to effectively reach a target's vitals. The more energy the bullet has as it reaches the vitals will have a great impact on damage and shock it it does.

So back to the original point, carry what you can shoot well, as long as it is able to penetrate the required depth and don't worry so much about other people's preferences.

One other point to complicate things further, if you need to shoot through barriers, get a more powerful caliber!
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Old July 2, 2005, 09:14 PM   #16
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There's a good bit of information available online for this topic including wound channel volume numbers for various calibers. If you want it, a search engine should find you plenty.
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Old July 2, 2005, 11:09 PM   #17
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I am going to walk over to the corner of the room, facce the wall, and stand there. Someone throw a rock at my head and put me out of my misery. Small and fast rock, big and slow rock, I don't care. Hey with the modern rocks they have have now, it's all the same.
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Old July 2, 2005, 11:23 PM   #18
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http://img113.echo.cx/my.php?image=h...parison2nk.jpg
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Old July 2, 2005, 11:29 PM   #19
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invssgt,

the .357 Sig looks like the winner out of those rounds. Sure they all ended up penetrating the same but the crush and stretch cavities are clearly smaller in the 9mm. The Stretch cavity in the .45 also looks smaller and is probably due to the lower velocity. Can we eat the jello now daddy?

Mommy, tell daddy to stop shooting the jello! I hate spitting out those yucky chunks of lead!!!
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Old July 2, 2005, 11:55 PM   #20
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What is the difference between a permanent cavity and a temporary cavity? How do they affect eachother? Which is more important for damage? thx.
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Old July 2, 2005, 11:58 PM   #21
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Temporary cavity is created as the bullet passes through and spreads the tissue apart. This is often referred to as hydrostatic shock. The permenant crush cavity is tissue that does not close back after the shock wave passes and is the permenant tissue damage caused by the bullet removing the tissue as it passes... Yummy!
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Old July 3, 2005, 12:01 AM   #22
Full Metal Jacket
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how do you tell the temporary from the permanent when looking at ballistic gel pictures?

So basically the bigger the temporary cavity, the bigger the permanent cavity, the bigger the wound channel- right?
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Old July 3, 2005, 12:13 AM   #23
stephen426
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The center of the damage in the gelatin is the permenant "crush cavity" and is darker. The temporary stretch cavity is lighter and looks like fissures in the gelatin. Sometimes different hollow points make some really cools looking wound channels. I can't find the link but Golden Sabers from Remington are pretty neat looking. The opening of the brass blades during expansion create a shell like spiral wound channel.

http://www.remington.com/ammo/pistol...goldnsaber.htm

can't find the damn picture... shoot...

Again, the point is that larger diameter bullets often have a bigger crush cavity in terms of height and depth. The smaller rounds such as 9mm may have decent stretch cavities but the wound channels taper off quickly. notice that the .40 has a good size stretch cavity as well as a deep crush cavity.
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Old July 3, 2005, 01:15 AM   #24
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FMJ, I have both. A P89 Ruger and a NORC Commander. Both guns are actually my favorite. Carrying the 9mm still gives me the confidence I need not withstanding the higher no. of rounds I carry in my P89. However, my 9mm ammo is a 158grainer sub-sonic round CJHP 'tactical brand.' Im confident that my 9mm can stop any BG on their tracks with the right placement shots.

Others may be right that the 9mm may have narrower wound channels, temporal or permanent but no dead person hit by 9mm would say that a 45ACP would do better.

practice with both ammo types and concentrate on the most vital and critical body parts. practice, practice. placement is what counts.

these topics of comparisons sometimes bring me to - which is faster to shoot the under-rated wheelgun or the semi-auto? before ive always thought that the automatics were it until i saw that guy with a wheelgun in mississipi.

sometimes you'll just have to find the answers yourself. nice shooting and goodluck on your search.
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Old July 3, 2005, 06:28 AM   #25
juliet charley
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The problem with the image invssgt posted (besides not giving credit to original source) is that it left out a great deal of comment and pertinent data posted with the original. Here is the link to original below. It is considerably more enlightening than merely a pirated image.

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...=000581#000000

The quote below (from the original) shows that some of the conclusions drawn in this thread (based on the image alone) are lacking.
Quote:
As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .
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