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Old June 29, 2005, 04:14 PM   #1
Para Bellum
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What to do if knife-assailant returns after jail and doesn't attack immediately?

I have posted the first part of the story before. Unfortunately it is true and I have to deal with it:

A colleague in my lawfirm was stabbed in the head several times last November. He was "lucky" because the bad guy's folding knife broke after some strikes. My colleague survived. Thanks to several operations he is back at work again.

Now the really bad news: The court saw the bad guy as certifiably insane and sentenced him to a mental institution for indefinite time. In other words: The assailant might be considered "healed" and released sooner or later. He might come back.

So what to do if the assailant returns and I see him standing at our front desk or in the lobby? What if he just stands there - unpredictably?

Thank you for your time and thought. Stay safe and sound.
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Old June 29, 2005, 04:30 PM   #2
Malamute
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Is it possible to get a restraining order, or order of protection from a court where you are? If so, that would be a first step, and if this happens, you are probably on more solid legal ground if you either call the police, or act in a pre-emptive way to prevent the person from causing more harm to others.

Talking, asking them to leave, as the police are on the way at that moment, with pepper and a weapon both in hand, would be a first step in a case of a known dangerous person returning to a scene or in the presence of a victim of a previous attack. If they became violent at that pint, you would have to choose what level of defense was appropriate to counter.

I would also keep a couple of cheap disposable cameras on hand easily available to take a picture of the person if they returned. It's much easier to convince the police and court that the person was there when you have a picture of them.
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Old June 29, 2005, 04:35 PM   #3
XavierBreath
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Para,
Unfortunately, I think it will depend on the laws of your country.
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Old June 29, 2005, 04:38 PM   #4
Bravo25
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In most places if you own the business, you are ok to keep a firearm on yourself, or at the owners bequest, as long as you remain on private property.
Having said that the first thing to do is get an Order of Protection from the court. (yeah, yeah I know this never stopped anyone commited to an attack) Then if, and when he shows up have someone immediately dial 911. Inform him that he is in violation, and is now trespassing. Explain in a very loud voice (you want as many witness as possible), that given his past history, you will consider his close proximaty to be a lethal threat, and will respond accordingly.

Don't make idle threats, or banter in arguements. Take charge of the situation, and keep in mind that at 21 feet a person with a knife can kill you as fast as a person with a gun. But you are more likely to see the gun before you see the knife,
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Old June 29, 2005, 04:47 PM   #5
progunner1957
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Prepare to survive

Quote:
So what to do if the assailant returns and I see him standing at our front desk or in the lobby? What if he just stands there - unpredictably?
Your colleague should get a restraining order, seeing as how this "gent" attempted to murder him. Since this piece of paper is basically not worth the paper it is written on as far as actually protecting the victim, HE SHOULD ARM HIMSELF 24/7/365 and react accordingly if he ever finds himself face-to-face with the attempted murderer again.

Since the crazy guy attempted to kill him in the past and seeing as how the victim is a member of the bar, if he is forced to shoot his attacker at some point in the future I seriously doubt that he will have to worry about being arrested; police, attorneys, prosecutors and judges tend to take care of their own - which is a good thing.

As far as seeing the crazy guy show up at the office, call 911 and tell them, "the guy that tried to murder a coworker of mine is here at our office. SEND POLICE OFFICERS IMMEDIATELY!! I am in fear for my life!!" That should get the police there ASAP; until then, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN (since the attack, you do carry 24/7/365, right???)

In the world of sports, they say, "The will to prepare to win is much more important than the desire to win. Everyone has the desire to win; few have the will to prepare to win."

To apply that philosophy to self defense and surviving a violent encounter:
The will to PREPARE to survive is much more important than the desire to survive. Everyone has the desire to survive; few have THE WILL TO PREPARE TO SURVIVE.

Those who have the will to prepare to survive usually will survive; those who do not have the will to prepare to survive usually will not survive.

Prepare to survive; you owe it to your friends, your family and most of all, you owe it to YOURSELF.
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Old June 29, 2005, 05:14 PM   #6
38SnubFan
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I don't think I could apply anything here that hasn't been said already.

Be prepared and remain prepared. Make sure you have the tools available to do so as well.

If this guy is standing at the front door:

-First, get prepared to defend youself (and other innocents if necessary).
-Second, make it LOUD AND CLEAR to this psychopath to stay back and away.
-Third, get the police on the line. If the BG leaves, DO NOT FOLLOW HIM. Just pass on to the dispatcher the best description of him you can and his last known direction of travel. And, I do repeat: DO NOT ENDANGER YOURSELF OR OTHERS BY FOLLOWING HIM! You could also be in a lot of legal trouble if the police know you're armed and following him (could be considered "pre-empting" the BG to attack, which could make you criminally liable instead of him).

But most of all, be prepared. The mindset without the tools could get you killed. Having the tools, but not the mindset, most likely WILL get you killed.

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Old June 29, 2005, 08:13 PM   #7
Limeyfellow
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Isn't the scenerio that he be released and the first thing he do is track everyone down to try and murder them a little remote? He was held for an indefinate time so that there wouldn't be a time set for him to be released especially if he is still crazy. I personally think you don't have much to worry about the attacker for many years to come if at all. Panicking about it just screws over your own mind.
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Old June 29, 2005, 08:28 PM   #8
Kevin Quinlan
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I think I have heard that Mace and Pepper spray is illegal in Europe.A good hand gun would be the first choice, if allowed where you are. Second would be Mace or Pepper spray. Third would be a QUALITY knife. If knives are permitted where you are get a good instructional tape and learn how to use it. Last would be a piece of 10-12 inch of pipe.
A QUALITY knife with a 4-6 inch blade can do lots of damage up close.The fact that the moron stabed him in the skull means he doesn't know how to use it.
Try Paladin Press. They should have the info you need.

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Old June 29, 2005, 09:46 PM   #9
USP45usp
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Para Bellum,

Didn't you mention that you carry at work? And IIRC, many had suggested a door that you had to buzz in for it to open and baseball bats (or cricket bats) on the wall behind your employees.

Europe is kind of a lost cause right now. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can't legally protect yourself without going to jail for a long time and the criminals get off easy. To me it seems as if Europe really wants the criminals to be free and the citizens to be subservant .

As here in the US, your associate must take the means of his life into his own hands. He must decide what he is willing to do to ensure his life. As an employer you can overlook many things and allow your employees to choose for themselves and look away if it involves anything that your country deems illegal.

It is a sad state of affairs when the government takes away any protection that you deem is right for you and insists that it will be there, but they aren't. What good is it that one dies (is killed) and the criminal gets off on an insane plea, or is able to actually be on the panel to see if you get early release from prison.

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you or to add to the post, it's up to the individual involved, what he is willing to do and what you are willing to overlook.

Wayne
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Old June 30, 2005, 01:42 PM   #10
jasonhgross
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Follow standard rules for all other identified potential threats.
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Old June 30, 2005, 03:11 PM   #11
Para Bellum
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Quote:
Is it possible to get a restraining order, or order of protection from a court where you are?
unfortunately: not.

Quote:
(since the attack, you do carry 24/7/365, right???)
yes, I do. thanks for your good advice progunner1957. I do prepare to survive very dilligently indeed.

Quote:
I think I have heard that Mace and Pepper spray is illegal in Europe.
both are legal and need no registration in Austria.

Quote:
Europe is kind of a lost cause right now. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can't legally protect yourself without going to jail for a long time and the criminals get off easy. To me it seems as if Europe really wants the criminals to be free and the citizens to be subservant .
Thank you for your concearn, but we are allowed to carry firearms and peeperspray. Europe consits of some 40 countries. Austria is pretty much ok...

The situation is:
I am well armed and well trained (for decades). But what to do if the maniac just stands there, say 5yds away and does not instantly repeat his attack (yet)? What would you do exactly?
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Old June 30, 2005, 03:30 PM   #12
Duxman
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Tough situation

I would advise my friend to shoot the BG with a .50 AE desert eagle empty the magazine, reload and repeat. Then plead insanity and go with a 1 year hiatus.



Seriously, I would probably alert building security and have this joker outsed from my place of business. At the same time call the cops - not breaking eye contact with this joker so if he charges I can react instantly.

Slap him with a civil lawsuit for damages on top of his criminal liability. Sue the knife manufacturer. Hey - if they can use the gun manufacturers - turnabout is fair play.
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Old June 30, 2005, 05:20 PM   #13
k_dawg
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He is a known mentally unstable and dangerious criminal who has already attempted to murder your colleague. The worst kind possible of criminal.


I would also go as far as to show his picture to EVERYONE at the building, and that they are to call the police *immediately* if they see him.


Also, see if there is any ability for them to notify your colleaque upon his release.

Quote:
The situation is:
I am well armed and well trained (for decades). But what to do if the maniac just stands there, say 5yds away and does not instantly repeat his attack (yet)? What would you do exactly?
Given the previous attack, i would definately draw my weapon. IMHO: a known assailant and attempted murderer deserves to be met with force, even IF he is not directly threatening with a knife again.

Of course, that is not legal advice, and the laws are probably different in Austria. I know where I live, that would be sufficient such that I wouldn't fear legal prosecution.
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:31 AM   #14
cosmolinelover
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I think it was Clint Eastwood who said (Unforgiven maybe??) "if I ever see you again I'm just gonna asume its self defense and start shootin"

No.... maybe it was Gene Hackman... hell of a flick though....
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