The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights > Legal and Political

 
 
Thread Tools
Old June 17, 2005, 06:06 PM   #1
biggerbrother
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2005
Posts: 1
The Patriot Act

Beware of the NRA & The Patriot Act
Be advised that the NRA may no longer be a gun owners best friend. Since the resignation of the distinguished, patriotic, and honorable Charlton Heston, the NRA has taken a decidedly commercial turn. Their allegiance has wavered from being solely dedicated to the full, vigorous, and comprehensive protection of its members 2nd Amendment rights, to sleeping with those in Washington in return for corporate favors. If you look at your membership card, you’ll see some of the many diversified areas the NRA is involved with. With help from their chief lobbyist, Christopher Cox, they obtain legislation in their favor, which helps them profit from their various ventures and diversified products. They have also become overly infatuated with the troubles that Tom Delay has gotten himself in to lately, but they don't seem to have anymore real time for us.
If this was all they did, and the legislation they sold your votes for, had no negative effect on the 2nd amendment rights of gun owners, there would be no problem... but, that's not the case, as they willfully, forcefully, knowingly and loyally supported the Patriot Act, and continue to do so today.
Not only did I recognize the immediate dangers of Patriot Act 1 when it was first rushed through congress, but I became more irate when I learned that Patriot Act 2 was already in the works. In an effort to help stop this unconstitutional run-away power grab, I made several attempts to appeal to the NRA in hopes that their political arm could put enough pressure on the Bush administration to overturn or repeal the act, or at least allow its 16 sunset parts to die peacefully. After persistent nagging, I finally received a letter from Mr. Cox, but not until a month before the 2004 election. In this letter, Chris made a couple things clear. He explained that the NRA didn’t consider the Patriot Act to be a problem worthy of their resources. He went on to explain that there was no indication from their membership that fellow gun owners were concerned enough about it either. In spite of those two points, he also assured me that, due to several controversial issues that year, the NRA was going to remain neutral and not endorse either presidential candidate. The very next day, I received an automated phone call, recorded by him personally. In this brief call, Mr. Cox's’ only message was to be sure I got out on election day to support George Bush.
The millions of dollars they rake in each year from over 25 million members, could have gone a long way in protecting our hard-fought-for freedoms and privacy rights where the Patriot Act and 2ND Amendment conflict. There is no sense in paying annual dues for 2nd amendment protection, when government spies, secret courts, and “Sneak & Peak” tactics can be used to circumvent it with out any recourse.
Section 215 of the act, allows Uncle Sam to collect business activity records of not just gun purchases, but also all related and non related purchases as they desire. This includes, but is by no means limited to: fire arms ammo and accessories purchases, gun club memberships, proficiency and tournament awards, gun show buys and sales, gun books bought or signed out
from libraries, and shooting related magazine subscriptions. The internet spying provisions of the Act permits authorities to secretly monitor your gun related forums, chatrooms, blog sites, and e-mail correspondences. From all the information gathered from these sources, the Feds get a good idea as to how many guns you have, what kinds of guns you own, how you may have modified them, how you tend to use them, how you obtained them, where and how you may be storing them, and any plans you may have to resell any of them. If they deem it necessary, they then can use another section of the act to conduct a “Sneak & Peak” raid on your home or business, and confiscate anything they can related to being a potential instrument of terrorism, including many types of guns or quantities of arms. Depending on what all they find, and/or how much of it has been deemed illegal to posses by earlier anti-constitutional bans, you could then find yourself being confiscated, taken to who knows where, to do who knows what to you, for who knows how long. In the best scenario, you simply lose your expensive fire arms collection, with no compensation or redress, and what ever fines and charges they want to levy on your record, which may include felonies and revoking your right to even own a gun. They’ll tell you that no such uses or abuses have been reported yet. The key word is “yet”. Now, if these aren't serious concerns to gun owners, then I guess there must not be any concerns about the 2nd amendment at all; and as such, I see absolutely no need to continue paying my hard earned money to a do-nothing gun rights organization. As such, I called them up to express my anger, then I cut up my card and mailed it back to them with my resignation in the form of another letter. They still don't get it though, because they keep sending me membership renewal junk in the mail.
biggerbrother is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 08:52 PM   #2
John28226
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 292
Divide and conquer?

You, Sir, are mistaken. Were you looking for Handgun Control when you found this site?
John E. Lane
Charlotte, NC
John28226 is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 08:53 PM   #3
Steve Morgan
Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 35
IMHO, the patriot act seems to be working. If you would like to enlighten all of us as to how else we can fight terrorism, please do tell. Those of us that have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about. Since the patriot act has been in existence, can you tell us of some wrongdoing by our government? If so, please tell us so we can all be worried like you.

To the Homeland Security dude that is monitoring this site: hello, have a nice day.
Steve Morgan is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 09:03 PM   #4
Mark54g
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,265
To say that the Patriot Act is working

Is the same as when the old High Priest said that the virgin sacrifices were working. I mean, have there been any great floods as of late? Would we be supporting the bill if it were called "Removal of Personal Privacy and Freedoms Act? Essentially, that is what it does.
Government should keep an eye on the country, but not be in a person's face. That is the opposite of what is happening. I don't want to start a political firestorm, but call a spade a spade.
Mark54g is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 09:29 PM   #5
6shooter
Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2005
Posts: 49
I will have to agree with Biggerbother, the NRA has been a dissapointment the past three years or so. The patriot act, well I haven't read all of it only parts and I don't agree with some I read. The jury is still out on the patriot act for me. I'm making the switch to Gun owners of America. They seem to be more interested in gun rights.
I never understood why someone would say, ''if you have nothing to hide why worry what the police, government, does''? If the police or whomever can do what they want ie.. search, peek, take property or arrest without due process, destroy the writ of habeus corpus then our constitution has become toilet paper. Just because the government hasn't abused some power they have doesn't mean they should have that power, and just because the government hasn't abused their power doesn't mean they won't.
6shooter is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 10:12 PM   #6
USP45usp
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2000
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 3,428
Not to be an *******, but could you folks double space between paragraphs? Sorry, I don't have any input on the main post, I couldn't read it, it was all "run on" sentences.

Not being a "grammar nazi" here, just couldn't really read it due to the closeness of all the paragraphs. It really does hurt the eyes and the mind will lose all want to read the entire post. Not just "me" but it's been proven to be true, people lose interest within the first paragraph and will cease to read the rest.

Just trying to be helpful here .

Wayne
USP45usp is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 10:17 PM   #7
dasmi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 881
Quote:
Those of us that have nothing to hide, have nothing to worry about.
For the millionth time, that isn't the damned point. True, I have nothing to worry about. But that doesn't make it right for the Government to read my email, open my letters, and listen to my phone calls.
__________________
If we look at the black record of mass murder, exploitation, and tyranny levied on society by governments over the ages, we need not be loath to abandon the Leviathan State and ... try freedom.
--Murray Rothbard, For a New Liberty
dasmi is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 10:51 PM   #8
Limeyfellow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Posts: 1,380
The patriot act a success? Well if you include 39 cases it was successfully used to convict people on, that could have succeeded without the act in the first place.

Its still nice to know that due to the Patriot act managed to end the evil reign of Lebanese immigrant Ali da Hana's illegal fishing for salmon. His crimes are truely evil!

Of course if they had let the members of congress read the act before they voted on it... nah thats just silly. When this stupid act dies the better life will be for every one.
Limeyfellow is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 11:03 PM   #9
sm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2002
Posts: 1,810
I am totally against the Patriot Acts.
I am totally agains Gun Control in any shape, form or fashion.

I am totally against any form of Gov't meddlin'. I don't recall anywhere in the Constitution, where the Gov't is supposed to meddle.

I do recall Elected persons, persons in the Military and such are supposed to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

If the Gov't interpreted and stayed within its role as defined , then we would not have the meddlin, the Control of the Citizens,[ by any means including Gun Control, War on "[]", etc. ], and Organizations such as NRA would probably not exist or maybe exist to settle such disputes such as Trap Shooters versus Skeet Shooters...

Instead of wasting my time,money energy worrying about it. I use these resources to fight it in the voting booth, write letters, pitch fits ,scream , kick and let folks know by various means.

Sometimes "education" requires talking to the level of the students.

Politician need votes, some want monies. Hit them where it hurts.

There are other Organizations, JPFO, GOA ....if one is not satisfied, or wants to expand the flanks.

My concern is folks are going to be too busy fighting amongst themselves and/ or protecting thier little slices of pie that the whole Freedom bit is gonna suffer.

Trap Shooters vs Skeet vs Benchrest vs SASS....GOA vs NRA vs JPFO....then the chains get rattled , the cages slam shut, and then folks figure they should have done something ...a little too late.
__________________
Use Enough Gun
TFL Alumni
sm is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 11:18 PM   #10
Eghad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
You know things always start with small things....then next thing you know something else is gone. Till you wake up one morning and wonder what the hell happened.

Go back and review Hitler's rise to power......He had a plan and an end game. He knew that it couldnt be done overnight. He took little bites at a time reassuring the populace it was all for thier well being. Then he used people against each other and had the Gestapo hauling folks off never to be seen again.....

The price of freedom is eternal viligance.......

pitting pro gun groups agains each other is exactly what a guy like Hitler would do. Then when they were weak enough from warring with each other he would get rid of them both.......

Yeh I dont see eyeball to eyeball with the NRA 100% of the time...but pound for pound they are one of the top lobbying groups. If a boat is leaking would you stand around arguing with each other or take turns bailing?
__________________
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old June 17, 2005, 11:43 PM   #11
Limeyfellow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Posts: 1,380
Well if you are going to compare you have to do it properly...

Hitler used the 1933 burning of the Reichstag (Parliament) building by a deranged Dutchman to declare a “war on terrorism,” establish his legitimacy as a leader (even though he hadn’t won a majority in the previous election).

“You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history,” he proclaimed, standing in front of the burned-out building, surrounded by national media. “This fire,” he said, his voice trembling with emotion, “is the beginning.” He used the occasion – “a sign from God,” he called it – to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors, a people, he said, who traced their origins to the Middle East and found motivation for their “evil” deeds in their religion.

Two weeks later, the first prison for terrorists was built in Oranienberg, holding the first suspected allies of the infamous terrorist. In a national outburst of patriotism, the nation’s flag was everywhere, even printed in newspapers suitable for display.

Within four weeks of the terrorist attack, the nation’s now-popular leader had pushed through legislation, in the name of combating terrorism and fighting the philosophy he said spawned it, that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus. Police could now intercept mail and wiretap phones; suspected terrorists could be imprisoned without specific charges and without access to their lawyers; police could sneak into people’s homes without warrants if the cases involved terrorism

To get his patriotic “Decree on the Protection of People and State” passed over the objections of concerned legislators and civil libertarians, he agreed to put a 4-year sunset provision on it: if the national emergency provoked by the terrorist attack on the Reichstag building was over by then, the freedoms and rights would be returned to the people, and the police agencies would be re-restrained.

Within the first months after that terrorist attack, at the suggestion of a political advisor, he brought a formerly obscure word into common usage. Instead of referring to the nation by its name, he began to refer to it as The Fatherland. As hoped, people’s hearts swelled with pride, and the beginning of an us-versus-them mentality was sewn. Our land was “the” homeland, citizens thought: all others were simply foreign lands.

Within a year of the terrorist attack, Hitler’s advisors determined that the various local police and federal agencies around the nation were lacking the clear communication and overall coordinated administration necessary to deal with the terrorist threat facing the nation, including those citizens who were of Middle Eastern ancestry and thus probably terrorist sympathizers. He proposed a single new national agency to protect the security of the Fatherland, consolidating the actions of dozens of previously independent police, border, and investigative agencies under a single powerful leader.

Most Americans remember his Office of Fatherland Security, known as the Reichssicherheits-hauptamt and Schutzstaffel, simply by its most famous agency’s initials: the SS.

And, perhaps most important, he invited his supporters in industry into the halls of government to help build his new detention camps, his new military, and his new empire which was to herald a thousand years of peace. Industry and government worked hand-in-glove, in a new type of pseudo-democracy first proposed by Mussolini and sustained by war.
Limeyfellow is offline  
Old June 18, 2005, 12:56 AM   #12
BreacherUp!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2005
Posts: 566
and why is this in tactics and training?
__________________
Life's tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid.
BreacherUp! is offline  
Old June 19, 2005, 10:28 AM   #13
Steve Morgan
Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 35
I'm still waiting

for someone to site a case where an innocent American citizen was carted off by Bush's SS to never be seen again.
Steve Morgan is offline  
Old June 19, 2005, 02:54 PM   #14
Rojoe67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: Wolverine State
Posts: 767
Good points........

Boy, I can hear both sides of the room on this one....... We all agree that security of our great nation has a price tag......

The folks in the power positions are likely hearing both sides too.... I think in order to have some added security since 9-11 it's true we might give up some of our long ignored rights and freedoms......However if something wasn't changed and measures taken I think a 9-11 thing could have took place a lot more times and places since then......

It is a true double sided coin... Some things were gained as well as lost in the process....
Rojoe67 is offline  
Old June 19, 2005, 11:52 PM   #15
progunner1957
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2004
Location: USA - east of the continental divide
Posts: 924
If only the NRA had 25 million members

Quote:
The millions of dollars they rake in each year from over 25 million members
Uh, Biggerbrother - I am an NRA life member. The last count I heard was slightly over four million members, not 25 million.

I wish we did have 25 million members who would raise holy hell and DEMAND that "The Government" step back and quit screwing with our RIGHT to keep and bear arms.

If "The Government" were really serious about our Second Amendment rights, we would be able to carry concealed onboard airliners, putting an end to the possibility of another 9-11 style attack.

But "The Government" would rather order an F-16 to shoot down a jet full of We The People than it would have armed citizens do what they can't.

Face it folks, we are expendable; ain't it great?? :barf:
progunner1957 is offline  
Old June 21, 2005, 04:54 AM   #16
LAK
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2002
Posts: 2,251
Quote:
I'm still waiting for someone to site a case where an innocent American citizen was carted off by Bush's SS to never be seen again.
I'm still trying to figure out why a government passed a legislative act rubberstamping alot things that "they have not nor will ever use". And how innocense or guilt can be measured without trial in a court of law.
LAK is offline  
Old June 24, 2005, 11:12 AM   #17
TX_RGR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2004
Posts: 485
Achtung, Baby!

Some of you make excellent points. Of course the actions of this administration have paralells with the reich. And the logical conclusion that it is part of a similar plan also has merit. What other logical conclusion could an intelligent person draw from the removal of constitutional protections? What some people don't seem to realize is that once the bill of rights is gone, the republic can do whatever it wants to you. Saying something like, "well they haven't done it yet, so everything's okay" is irresponsible, and frankly, stupid. It's nice to know that there are many here who would not think to take any action whatsoever until it is too late to change anything. The adminsiatration jumped on this opportunity to get us to relinquish our freedom without a fight, and they are trying to tighten the noose. I don't want to live in Nazi Germany, afraid to speak out against the establishment for fear of being rounded up as a terrorist or sympathizer, which is where we are at. No trial, no rights, just arrested and held until they get tired. Look into it. It's appalling. Why the media never raised hell about this should prove that they are propogandists owned by corporations (which they are, again, look into it). Oh, one more news flash: The "war" in Iraq is not about any "freedom" or "wmds" or "terrorism." Its about one thing and one thing only. Oil. Wake up people, or get ready to live in fear and do only as your told.
TX_RGR is offline  
 

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11088 seconds with 7 queries