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Old June 17, 2005, 08:19 AM   #1
nug_38
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Smart Guns

Hey guys, I while surfing I found another interesting article. It seems "smart guns" will be a reality soon afterall. Considering the reputed benefits of such a weapon, how many of you would switch to that type of weapon? Do you think it should be made into law like in NJ?

Wouldn't it be funny to see that criminals have unmodified weapons while law abiding folks are stuck with computer guns? What happens if a BG breaks in the house and the wife is home alone with the firearm that only her husband is authoized to use?

Here is the article:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1828963,00.asp

Thanks for your comments.

nug
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Old June 17, 2005, 08:21 AM   #2
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Oops

I placed this in the wrong forum. Sorry

Nug
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Old June 17, 2005, 08:48 AM   #3
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What a completely idiotic idea!! :barf:

"ceramic piezoelectric sensors" indeed. So what happens when I drop the gun? HMMM??

NO, I WILL NOT CARRY A "SMART GUN", BECAUSE WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO MAKING A RELIABLE ONE!

I have a great idea. Let the Secret Service and other body guards of politicians carry these "smart guns" first. If the Secret Service starts using "smart guns", then I may look into it.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:14 AM   #4
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I would probably get one because sooner or later it will be the law. Maybe the only "legal" gun you can buy in the future. Im not all for it, but there is advantages as well. 1. Your gun can never be used against you. 2. Stealing a gun (offcourse the BG will know how or make a way to get in fixed for him or others) would be useless. 3??? Can find anymore answers for it.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:24 AM   #5
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The real smart gun = un-papered, un-"fingerprinted", un-registered.

Get yours while you can.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:30 AM   #6
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your day of judgement has arrived, and you must use your gun to defend your life.

your heart pounds and your hands sweat, you draw your weapon, line up the sights and squeeze the trigger. all this happens in an instant, but to you it seems like an eternity.

your gun does not discharge, but the bad guy's does, game over.

what just happened? well, it seems that under stress your grip was just not the same as at the range and the gun did not recognize you as an authorized user.

oh well, maybe your spouse can sue the gun manufacture for building a defective weapon.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:37 AM   #7
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Read my signature. Smart guns are only a challenge to really stupid people. Pushing smart guns shows very limited world experience. Third grade science should get anyone past the controls.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:46 AM   #8
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Its a bad idea, first off it won't help crime or anything..

Secondly, putting that in a gun is adding another component that can and will go bad. Look what computers did to cars, now we can't even work on 'em without a PHD in Computer Science.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:53 AM   #9
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there's nothing smart about stripping away more responsibility from people. part of what's heading so many things the wrong direction is that there's no accountability. how much BS do we have to put in place before it's never anyone's fault, just a malfunction or statistical anamoly? if your kids need a whack or two to learn not to try and get into the gun cabinet, sobeit, and they'll pass that on to their's as well. low-tech, better-results approach.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:57 AM   #10
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My fear of smart guns is that it's an obvious fact that it's really just one more way to make guns more expensive/difficult to buy. If the anti's can't legislate or litigate enough to get guns away from honest people they'll just price them away from us and pass every annoying law they can.

That said ... I think one of the first places you'll find the smart guns is with cops carrying openly. An amazing number of LEO's get shot with their own gun because they have to carry openly, so we should immediately be able to see how dependable they are. If the FOP comes out against smart guns for cops and wants them just for civilians -- well, the conclusion there is obvious.

If the technology's been around for a few years and has proven reliable with cops I actually wouldn't mind a "smart" weapon for carry purposes, but I'd hate to pay that extra for every single gun I ever own in the future. What's the point of "smart" guns for the ones in my safe because, as has been said, a criminal who steals the gun will have plenty of time to defeat the chip.

For a carry gun I can see the advantage -- as long as it's proven technology. Trusting our lives to technology/computers is something we do every day whether we think about it or not. Whenever you get on a plane, take a commuter train, when you get in an accident and hope the air bag deploys -- even when you apply your ABS brakes on an icy street (well -- ABS is of questionable help, but I like it).
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:59 AM   #11
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Amen Jonathon. Smart Guns are a stupid idea. If the Gov. tells us that is all we can buy, then lots of people would be buying guns illegally. Anyone could work on a '69 mustang with just a little knowledge, but now with all them computers, you're right, you have to have at least 4 years of extended education just to change the oil and rotate tires. My soultion is buy all the guns you can now, while you still can.
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Old June 17, 2005, 10:26 AM   #12
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Most people can't even program their vcr or thermostat and forget to flip off safeties and such. Will smartguns make them more safe? Criminals will be more safe for sure.
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Old June 17, 2005, 10:56 AM   #13
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Even IF - thats a really big if IMNSHO - they did perfect the smart gun technology, I'd still want a plain ol' standard weapon. A gun is a tool and subject to use by it's weilder. More becomes too easily interefered with or abused by those not neccessarily welcomed by the owner and failure much more common. That's a fact by default - they'll mess with it simply because they can and it WILL fail because all more complex systems do.

The answer is good firearm management (a safe system, good holster, and responsibility) not management by firearm.
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Old June 17, 2005, 11:29 AM   #14
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I want to see the "security forces" of the idiot legislators be required to carry them first. Noted, though, that NJ (?) smart-gun thing exempted police/security guys from having to carry said "smart guns".

My take on 'smart guns'...OK, lets say that the fingerprint pad concept becomes reality...pad only recognizes 1 print of 1 person. You are out in the garage, repairing the mower/car/snow blower, etc. Somehow, you manage to slice a finger...the only finger your HD firearm knows. So, you Neo-Sporin and band-aid up said injured finger.

Fast Forward to 2:00AM...CRASH ! ! ! Front door smashed to bits, several assorted bad guys are in your front room, looking for stairway to bedrooms. You grab up your smart gun, and press finger to the pad. . .

BZZZZT! Wrong! Gun doesn't recognise your bandaged finger...BG's have found the stairs. You rip off the band-aid, and try again. . .

BZZZZZT Wrong again! Gun can't read the print through all the Neo-Sporin, so you frantically and vigorously wipe off Neo-Sporin from finger and guns print pad. BG's are now at the top of the stairs, and having heard your not so muffled curses, know exactly where you are. You firmly press finger to the print pad to try to unlock your gun. . .

BZZZZZT! Wrong again. Print can't be read through the bood on the pad, because you re-opened the cut while trying to clean off the Neo-Sporin. As an added benny, since you unsuccessfully attempted to unlock your gun 3 times in less than 10 minutes, it is now locked out from any further attempts for 24 hours. BG's are now in your bedroom, blazing away at you with their pre-ban standard capacity 'dumb guns'. Guess who loses.

Hint. . . It ain't the BG's
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Old June 17, 2005, 11:40 AM   #15
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It strikes me as disturbing that the new technology detects the way you grip your gun. What if you're new shooter and start out, like many, with a lousy grip? Do you have to constantly reprogram your gun as you improve in technique? What if you need to shoot with your weak hand?
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Old June 17, 2005, 11:53 AM   #16
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Stats question...

Does anyone know how many deaths are caused a year by people losing control of their handguns and somebody else using them? Surely every case of a child getting hold of a gun (that can be solved thru good old fashion responsibility training).

But what about other 'real world' situations?

Basically, how many deaths would this technology actually prevent?
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Old June 17, 2005, 12:19 PM   #17
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The only one I seen really work required a ring to be worn that allowed the gun to be fired. Of course there are some advantages of this for say the police when their gun is pulled away and used to shoot them. That would save a few officers a year, but really the technology has a lot of work to go, to work properly.
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Old June 17, 2005, 12:43 PM   #18
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An infinite number of redundant parts cannot improve the reliability over removing a single part from the design. (an unknown reliability engineer).

One of the reasons for the incredible reliability of the base 1911 design is the very few parts that are actually involved in making the thing fire.
Failure to feeds, failure to extract, etc only occur after the most important requirement…cartridge ignition.
While there are failures to fire, every one I have seen was either a broken part (still pretty rare and usually due to a defect) or plain out stupidity (I saw a firing pin with grease darn near filling the tunnel once).

Given the huge number of firearms in circulation, it will likely take hundreds of years to make an appreciable dent in the population unless existing weapons are actually banned and confiscated.
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Old June 17, 2005, 01:13 PM   #19
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I will start by saying this. I LOVE TECHNOLOGY! If it were not for technology, I would not have a job.

This being said. Technology scares the living crap out of me! Case in point, this "Smart Gun." My first thought went to the old movie, "Judge Dread" - LOL They had smart guns that actually talked back to the user and everything. That was pretty cool.... but....

I DO NOT want a smart gun in my house. I work with computers all day, everyday, and they BREAK. WAY more than mechanical devices! Also, anything electronic can be hacked. There is a hack out there for almost every possible electronic device in the world! Adding guns to the mix will only breed "gun hackers" that in turn will sell the hacked guns on the street.

If the gov bans traditional firearms, I will become a criminal on that day.

'nuff said.
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Old June 17, 2005, 01:15 PM   #20
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Man, programmers constantly crack the security on $10,000 software. You can rechip your X-Box. You can rechip your car. I've disabled home security systems with an Insulated Handheld Short Circuit Device (this product is sold under the trade name "Screwdriver" by many fine companies throughout the world). They've hacked the scrolling displays in the NYC subway system. I know people who've read SEPTA's mail.

If you think that geeks can't crack smartguns, you're mistaken. As was said above, three wires and a battery can disable first gen smartguns. Let's say they go with something a little smarter, it's still entirely defeatable.

It's likely to be so absolutely simple that it's not even funny: drop 1.5 volts across the solenoid that releases the firingpin block, and suddenly your pistol functions just like an "oldschool" Glock.

Oooh, here's a possibility: your gun has a wireless transceiver in it, GPS, and a unique ID. Each time you pull the trigger, the internal chips send out your current geoloc along with your unique ID and a "Request to Shoot" opcode. This is picked up by the National Firearms Discharge Authorization System.

Your geoloc and ID are checked to see that you're discharging the weapon in an authorized location. Of course, if you're not a CCL holder, any non-home location is unauthorized (with the exception of shooting ranges). Next, an instant background check is run on you. This will include all arrest warrants, charges, and detainments by the police on an up-to-the-second basis.

If you check out, the system sends out a "Request Authorized" opcode to the individual chip processor, and the weapon discharges. If not, it doesn't, since you're obviously using the weapon in the comission of a crime (the crime being discharge of a firearm in a non-authorized area (switched to "attempted" after the fact)).

Also keep in mind that upon discharging the weapon (and sending the "Weapon Discharged" opcode), the system will check the Jurisdiction Tree for your current location and file for any appropriate arrest warrants. For instance, if you're in a City of the First Class, it might send out a request for a warrant for discharging a firearm in the city limits. This will, of course, post to the instant background check system. In many cases, the warrant may be granted quickly enough by the judge's computer that any followup shots are not authorized, since firearms posession by a fugitive from justice is illegal.

They can do this, to this extent, with a million redundant systems and processors. They can change to whatever mechanical systems they want (caseless, electrically fired, etc.). They can encrypt everything with one-time pads. It doesn't matter.

Fifteen minutes after they start selling a smart gun, there'll be a website hosted in Korea that offers the modchip.

(Of course, they'll criminalize those modchips. Maybe geeks will finally get the mob job offers they so rightly deserve. I know I've always wanted to be the "robbery technology guy/hacker dude" Hollywood stereoptype.)
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Old June 17, 2005, 01:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Does anyone know how many deaths are caused a year by people losing control of their handguns and somebody else using them? Surely every case of a child getting hold of a gun (that can be solved thru good old fashion responsibility training).

But what about other 'real world' situations?

Basically, how many deaths would this technology actually prevent?
There are plenty of real world examples I can think of where a person has lost control of thier handgun and people have been injured and killed as a result. Ironically, however, this technology and the laws behind it won't help one bit, because every case that comes to mind involves an LEO and as already mentioned they're exempt. Go figure... lol
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Old June 17, 2005, 01:28 PM   #22
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Dang it, NetZapper! I just hacked into Dianne Feinstein's PC, and she has cut and pasted your post on having built in GPS and a firing authorization center into a new bill! :barf:

Given the simplicity of what a gun does -- slam a pin into a bullet from a mechanical device -- of course this could be defeated. I'm sure they'll write up laws making it a federal felony to do so, but again this will only affect the law abiding.

I do hope they never make this technology a requirement for firearms, but honestly I would love to see it as an option. And I would FORCE LEO's to carry it, since as has been stated they are the most likely to be killed by their own weapons.

Although the smart guns could be defeated with some work, they would defeat the guy who wants to snatch a gun and immediately turn it around and pull the trigger.
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Old June 17, 2005, 11:33 PM   #23
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HELLO?? Forget geeks getting into your gun. Just do as I would do--pull the friggin chip OUT of the gun, find the leads that go to the solenoid or other electrically actuated lock and put a battery across the wires. KISS.

If you can make it function without a battery by ripping the switch out, THEN PULL THAT OUT. That's what every 12 year old playing with Daddy's gun because he doesn't need to take responsibility for locking it up properly is going to do.

SHEEEESH!

Better yet, do the above in front of the 'smart gun' proponents at a news conference.
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Old June 17, 2005, 11:43 PM   #24
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Guy:

*grin* Yeah, well, to be honest, that's probably what we (the geeks) would do anyway. But, let me have my dream of a world in which I could be a dangerous gun runner, instead of "that dude who's real good with computers 'n' s**t."
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Old June 18, 2005, 12:16 AM   #25
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Net Zapper,

A standard laser pointer will defeat some infared systems, or 'cause them to go off.

Electronics are so easy to defeat... all it would take is an EMP wave and there goes your gun.
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