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Old June 16, 2005, 03:18 PM   #1
payne
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Scared of being shot by an LEO?

A friend of mine recently told me of a story that involved 3 plain clothed officers shooting each other. Aparently there was a gang in a subway and they started shootingat another gang. One plain clothed officer drew his weapon. A gang member fired at him. he returned fire and dropped the guy. Another plain clothed officer comes up and sees the first office drop the gang member. He then draws and drops the first officer. Basically same thing happens again to the second officer.
So, say there's a situation where you actually use you weapon in self-defense, and an officer sees you fire the shot. He draws and fires at you, thinking you are the threat. What do you do? The subway situation makes me leary of ever getting involved in a situation that doesnt directly involve me.
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Old June 16, 2005, 03:22 PM   #2
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Quote:
Aparently there was a gang in a subway and they started shootingat another gang. One plain clothed officer drew his weapon. A gang member fired at him. he returned fire and dropped the guy. Another plain clothed officer comes up and sees the first office drop the gang member. He then draws and drops the first officer. Basically same thing happens again to the second officer.
I think that was an episode of NYPD Blues
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So, say there's a situation where you actually use you weapon in self-defense, and an officer sees you fire the shot. He draws and fires at you, thinking you are the threat. What do you do?
If he's clearly a cop, drop the gun and show empty hands. If he's stupid enough not to ID himself and a bad enough shot that he misses me, then I treat the threat as a threat and act accordingly
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Old June 16, 2005, 03:25 PM   #3
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Well, if he hits I probably go down.

If he misses then I shoot back. If he's shooting at me it's too late to try and explain things to him, so it's him or me and I will do my darnedest to make sure I'm still standing at the end. It'll be a world of crap when it's over, but it's better than being dead.
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Old June 16, 2005, 03:30 PM   #4
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Here's a real case of it happening:

Plainclothes Officer Killed
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Old June 16, 2005, 03:32 PM   #5
payne
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HA!! yeah that would be a world of crap wouldn't it. I didn't think about firing back at the officer. Course if he was plain clothed you wouldn't know would ya?

Hum... it may have been an episode from that show. It probably was cause I'm sure it woulda been big enough to make the news. I don't watch that show though so i wouldn't know. Still an interesting situation.
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Old June 16, 2005, 04:07 PM   #6
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It could very well happen. A lof of officers are poorly trained--ammunition, qualification and sending officers off for training to bring back to the departments strains the budget. Some cities have had their firearms training facilities shut down or can't afford to build one deemed "safe" enough by courts, insurance carriers, politicians or "the public".

Even with the best training tax money can buy, things can get spooky out there. The communication between officers is often bad. Radios are down on the belt and often cut out, people are hollering, the light is bad, backup officers come from different directions and one never gets enough rest when working the night shift. No wonder officers put themselves in a crossfire with each other.

Get yourself some training. Good instruction would definitely help you develop a plan on how to interact with the public and responding officers as a civilian permit holder.

As one who once plied the law enforcement trade, I've seen many civilians better trained than the officers--sorry to say.
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Old June 16, 2005, 04:18 PM   #7
Doug.38PR
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If he's clearly a cop, drop the gun and show empty hands. If he's stupid enough not to ID himself and a bad enough shot that he misses me, then I treat the threat as a threat and act accordingly
that raises the question, if he "ID"s himself how do you know it's true. In other words if a man in plain clothes says to me "hold it, police!" How do you know that's true. Anybody can point a gun and say that in order to trick someone. Especially if he is some skanky looking thug. Reminds of a scene in the first Lethel Weapon movie where Mel Gibson and Danny GLover drive up to some rich guys house. Glover is in nice plain cloths with a coat and tie and Gibson dressed like someone that lives under a bridge. At this point my dad watching the movie with me says refering to Glover, "I'd make him (gibson) get dressed or I wouldn't go around with him. He looks like a thug." Less than two seconds later, the owner of the house open's fire on them. We half expected that the guy had mistaken them for hit men or thugs that had come there to rob or kill him. Turns out the shooter was a bad guy anyway.
Also reminds me of the movie Serpico with Al Pachino. Two policeman open fire on a thug and him while serpico is chasing the thug. Serpico looks like gutter trash.

Anyway, If a policeman ID's himself just by voice and I don't believe him and he starts shooting at me, I shoot back and outlast him with him shot or even dead, do I get in trouble because he did not propertly ID himself by properly showing a card and badge.
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Old June 16, 2005, 04:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
if he "ID"s himself how do you know it's true.
like this
Quote:
If he's clearly a cop
Whatever that means to you.
You draws your gun, you takes your chances.
If you assess the threat and act accordingly you have to pray that the gods of probability are on your side

I don't think that there is a clear definitive answer to this or any real life situationinvolving gun play.

That's why your gun should just be one simple tool in your arsenal
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Old June 16, 2005, 04:53 PM   #9
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Actually it was a CSI:NY episode.
Something similar.

/edit: HOLY CRIPES! So there is a big push for officers to be "physically fit" during their entrance examinations into a PD. Then I see there have been 60 deaths this year from that page linked above while in the line of duty. 8! 8 have been from heart attack!!!!!

In fact, as you page back through the years, there are some years with 20 or more! Good lord. Get them boys off of donuts and cigs. Get back on foot patrol!
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Old June 16, 2005, 05:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Here's a real case of it happening:

Plainclothes Officer Killed
That's horrible. If that got hasn't fried yet post the case info if you can find it, I don't think I'd be the only one to want to help karma out if he ever makes it back to free air.
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Old June 16, 2005, 09:20 PM   #11
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I'm not to worried about that around here. They are generally too busy tasering 6 year olds and cripples for evading arrest to pick on me. Now if the national guard stopped following me around the airport flashing their M16s because apparently I am the greatest threat to the United States have ever seen I will be happy. Its bad enough they search me 14 times in one trip.

~Irate plane traveller~
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Old June 16, 2005, 09:50 PM   #12
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that raises the question, if he "ID"s himself how do you know it's true.
In my opinion, if he's shooting at me and there's no immediate cover I can take, I'm going to shoot back until the threat is stopped. It doesn't matter to me if he's dressed in uniform with strobe lights coming out of his ears and a big neon sign that says "Police" hanging over his head. I have no obligation to throw my gun down and let some guy kill me just because he's an LEO.
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Old June 16, 2005, 10:11 PM   #13
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Someone shoots at me, I shoot back...
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Old June 17, 2005, 02:03 AM   #14
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Go to the range odds are you have a better chance of being shot inadvertanly than if they are aiming. I went to the range with a friend the other day when some cops were practicing. Pondering getting a vest.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:12 AM   #15
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Gun Fire Theory

There are some advanced training theories on gun fighting that read:

If there is a situation where one party initiates fire, other parties who are similarly armed have a tendancy to return fire / open fire.

If someone (cop or not) opens fire without warning in your direction, and you are similarly armed, your first instinctive reaction will be one of 2:

1) return fire.
2) seek cover / run away.

I do not think that under stress, you will be able to quickly discern that whomever is shooting at you is a BG or a COP. Those precious seconds could either have you return fire at a good guy, or kill the BG. Or get you killed.

This is why a lot of highly trained elite level (SF, SWAT, etc.) folks practice these scenarios a lot.

Muscle memory and repitition is the key to surviving these incidents.

This is a reason why I drive. Subways are dangerous places: Enclosed, limited exits, some cover.
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Old June 17, 2005, 09:17 AM   #16
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I don't know....statistically speaking you are pretty safe being shot at by law enforcement
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Old June 17, 2005, 03:15 PM   #17
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First of all, the words "stop police" generally tell you the way it's going to go down. If you order them to do something and they don't do it, i.e. drop the weapon, get on the ground, etc. then you have to do what you have to do. Plain clothes officers are usually aware that they are not in uniform. I would hope that they would respond to commands given by an officer in uniform that they would probably recognize as one of their own.
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Old June 17, 2005, 08:21 PM   #18
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It was from an episode of "CSI:New York"

Good story...unlikely outcome.

But, I avoid subway shootings by not traveling to New York.
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Old June 18, 2005, 08:20 AM   #19
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Those of you who would shoot at someone who has identified himself as an officer (even in uniform with strobe lights coming out his ears as ATW25 said) speak very well for the gun owning community :barf: .
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Old June 18, 2005, 10:35 AM   #20
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Go to the range odds are you have a better chance of being shot inadvertanly than if they are aiming. I went to the range with a friend the other day when some cops were practicing. Pondering getting a vest.
Im a full time LEO, and I will go to the range with you any day of the week. Furthermore, I have no issues with 90% of the officers in my dept, or surrounding ones. Matter of fact, I am much more frightened by the arm chair commandos with their Bryco's in thigh holsters that I see at public ranges than the worst cops ive seen.
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Old June 18, 2005, 05:06 PM   #21
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See I appreciate you put the effort into it. And im sure some cops shoot much better than us lowly civilians. On the same token I'm sure there are those of inferior stock who can out shoot most cops. It was an observation on local cops, maybe where you're from they practice, apparently here they don't or take as much pride as you.
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Old June 18, 2005, 06:12 PM   #22
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That's a really good question for anyone to consider. If I had to suddenly, 'throw down' on someone in public I think I'd be inclined to shout, 'police officer' repeatedly and real loud!

Yeah, I know; I know; but I'd rather get arrested for impersonating an officer than shot while saving myself or someone else from disaster!

At least a good guy would have to think, twice, before immediately, 'offing' you!
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Old June 22, 2005, 06:43 PM   #23
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Shot by a LEO

With all the adrenalin flowing I am not going to give a LEO a reason to shoot and I am going to hit the deck! We can straighten it all out ofter all concerned cool off and reach a stage of sanity including me.

Of course out here in the boonies such situation is as likely as hitting the lotto.
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Old June 22, 2005, 07:59 PM   #24
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A couple nights ago, I had a dream that a bunch of uniformed, but unmarked people did a dynamic entry on my apartment, screaming "Stop! Police!" the whole time. In the dream, I started shooting, got torn up by MP5 fire, "died", and woke up.

Upon thinking about it for about five seconds, I realized I was a complete fool in the dream. If I'm that outgunned, it doesn't matter if it's the Mafia, the Aryan Nation jerkoffs, or the PPD, I have a better chance of surviving if I just drop my weapon.

That said, if I were being shot at by a plainclothes cop, I think I'd probably return fire. Mainly because I seriously doubt I'd have any idea what's going on.
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Old June 22, 2005, 08:40 PM   #25
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Subway?
Hot dang! I live in AR, I can actually say something nice about living here - no subways...our roads suck, but we don't worry about subway shootings..


We do have LEOs.

I did not venture down that alley as it may have been 3 or 4 dudes with a baseball bat - Richard Pryor ....cleaned up a bit.

I see folks slinging lead, I am best to leave and be a good witness. I mean it could be UC LEOS and gangbangers having a discussion - as I am neither LEO, or gang banger - I was not invited. Be a real bummer to shoot a LEO.

Now I have been in situations with UC LEOS , and when the Blue Lights come flashing, the smell of rubber from stopping hits your nostrils...and the Uniform says " Drop it" - you drop it, hug pavement, get cabled and behave until the UC and whatnot sort things out. Sort the BGs from UC , and civilians like me.

Don't be where trouble is. If trouble comes to you...and UC officers ID themselves ( or you know them) shut up, listen, follow orders...and when told to drop it, hit the pavement - do so really really fast in a safe manner...fast.
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