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Old June 26, 2005, 07:13 AM   #26
Apple a Day
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IMHO when the U.S. collapses it will be from within rather than from without.
Lincoln went to war to keep the country together but if you get the right set of circumstances, i.e. a "peanut pickin' president" and the sudden succession of Aztlan from the U.S. once enough people of the same mindset get into power from that region, develop enough of a voter base while the rest of the natives are too fractuous to stand together to stop it... well then that will signal the beginning of a major decline in power.
Then again, once all the leftover hippies croak then the country could start swinging the other direction. One never can tell.
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Old June 26, 2005, 07:25 AM   #27
BryanP
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Quote:
If you put a frog in hot water... he will jump out.

If you put him in cool water and gradually increase the heat...he will remain there until his goose is cooked.
No, he won't. He will, in fact, attempt to escape.
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Old June 26, 2005, 08:52 AM   #28
bad shot
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So ... don't worry about an invasion. Just stay up with politics and protect our sovereignity with your vote and your voice. If history teaches anything, it teaches us to fight corruption and keep our powerful government on the straight and narrow so it doesn't destroy our country from within.

that right
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Old June 26, 2005, 08:09 PM   #29
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Python, . . . you are absolutely correct, . . . no one knows the day or the hour that any of the prophesies shall come to pass.

We only know that they will come to pass.

But there is always a reason for something happening, . . . there has never been an "occurance" without first there being the "opportunity".

I am of the opinion, having worn both the Navy uniform and Army uniform for a total of 17+ years, . . . that outside the mainstream military "family" not too many who live here give two pig knuckles about much of any thing other than what their stocks are doing, . . . how high up in the pecking order they can get, . . . and as often as not, . . . how many they can put in the ground as they climb up the ladder of success.

We have seen the closing of Bible studies in our school systems, . . . but the opening of Islamic prayer rooms.

Our illustrious supreme court just the other day paved the way for Donald Trump to take any of our places from us in the name of change, . . . so long as he promises a bigger tax check to the local government.

The senate is lobbying for "pluralism" in the choice of the next supreme court justice.

UnoCal is getting ready to be bought out: hose, well, and oil bin by the Chinese. Guess what the price of gas in Kalifornia will be then???

Ted Kennedy has the gaul on national television to call for Rumsfeld's resignation. Guess he forgot that Chappaquiddick happened on his watch.

I could go on, on, on, and on, . . . but the theme is there: the opportunity is being readied by good men and women grazing in their own personal pasture and not watching the fences around to see if the wolf is trying to jump in. This is occuring all at the same time that others are doing their best to bring down our way of life (including the first and second amendments) and turning us into mutton (butchered sheeple).

OK: Down off the soap box.

May God bless,
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Old June 26, 2005, 09:58 PM   #30
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No, I don't think the country as a whole is anarchy prone. Sure, we as Americans have always had a distrust and resentment of overbearing authority, but we have also banded together for the good of our communities. In times of disaster we pitch in to help each other out and some one has to coordinate that. In the absence of "duly constituted authority" it generally falls to the person who makes the most sense or seems to be the most confidence inspiring. (Or sometimes is the loudest ). There have always been and will be the exceptions. Those who would huddle in their shelter and say the hell with everyone else and the criminals who are the real anarchists and want no interference in their criminal endeavors. I believe that should there be some form of collapse, people, especially in the smaller communities, will work together. While this may not take place in the larger cities, they do not neccessarily represent the majority of America.
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Old June 26, 2005, 11:56 PM   #31
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No, it's not prone now.

But I think it could all change quickly. I've met people from coast to coast in America and but a very few have all been good people. I have also seen people, good people for the most part, do some very bad things when they "felt cornered". If a person becomes desperate enough, for any reason, they change completely and horrifically. It could be drugs, being attacked, your children starving, or whatever that flips this "switch" and turns on another person altogether.

What could fling enough Americans into such desperation as to bring about anarchy? Hubert's Peak and all its ramifications top my list. I pray that anarchy never happens and hope my fellow Americans are made of sterner material, but hoping and praying is a poor substitute for planing and practicing.

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Old June 27, 2005, 01:56 AM   #32
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When Bush Jr was first elected he beat the other fellow by only a handfull of votes- the country did not descend into anarchy- infact it was proof I believe of the stability of your political system.

Where problems could arise I think relate to an event like that that is likely to have caused 'Dark Ages' a climatic disaster where for example volcanic activity blocked out much of the suns rays- causing massive starvation and bringing about the first bouts of recorded plague in europe.

Measuring the consequences of this type of event today is hard to do. It possibly could cause global war and anarchy.
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Old June 27, 2005, 09:24 AM   #33
PythonGuy
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Quote Dwight55:
"no one knows the day or the hour that any of the prophesies shall come to pass. We only know that they will come to pass."

Oh really? funny but none have come to pass as yet, the dates keep getting changed or the prophecy reinterpreted but you can make anything appear real if you try hard enough. Of course we aren't going to survive forever, but no one can tell us how or when these things will happen, just say I told you so AFTER the fact. Not everyone believes like you do Dwight55, this is not a religious forum so save the preaching.
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Old June 27, 2005, 09:25 AM   #34
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No, I don't think the country tends toward anarchy. I think it tends toward facism. If there is any disruption in the government creating a leadership vacuum, there is no shortage of lower-level politicians eager to step in and take control. We have 'Government in Depth."

There seems to have been some thread veer toward "could the USA be invaded?"

I don't think most people realize what a tremendous "defense in depth" the USA has in its National Guard. Here in podunk Boise Idaho we have at least 20 M1 Abrams tanks parked by the airport, and regularly used in drills by the National Guard. We have mobile artillery, mobile briges, APC's, etc. We also have a squadron or two of Warthogs parked at the airport. That's a pretty formidable force for a small town in Idaho. About 50 miles away we have Mountain Home Air Force Base.

All states have similar National Guard armories, staffs, and equipment. And thanks to the Interstate Highway system (and a tremendous number of secondary roads) we can move all that equipment wherever is needs to be in short order.

All we need is the will to defend ourselves and the leadership. And I don't think there is a shortage of either.
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Old June 27, 2005, 10:12 AM   #35
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Lots of prophecies have been fulfilled Pthonguy. you're just knee jerking about it because you don't study it and its a (gasp) dreaded religion thing.
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Old June 27, 2005, 10:34 AM   #36
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Sorry, I don't drink that Kool-aid.
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Old June 27, 2005, 12:13 PM   #37
progunner1957
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The choice: True individual freedom or "freedom in chains"

Quote:
As long as the government and media keep giving the people "bread and circuses" - no problem. Meanwhile the government just does whatever the hell it wants, including the latest Supreme Court decision that the government can steal someone's home and give it to a business. Face it, most of the people in this country are too busy waiting for their own government subsidy and watching "american idol", "survivor" and any other "reality" show to pay any attention to real reality.
It seems like there is alot of truth in this viewpoint (above). "We The People" vote politicians into office based on their good word and promises. They go to D.C. and serve whoever and whatever they are loyal to; IT SURE AS HELL IS NOT THE CONSTITUTION, BILL OF RIGHTS AND "WE THE PEOPLE."

The "public service philosophy" of the majority of our current day "public servants" is very obvious. It can be summed up in these these ten words:
"F*** YOU, WE'RE THE GOVERNMENT. WE'LL DO WHATEVER WE WANT.

If anyone disagrees, pull your head out of the sand and take a look at the Supreme Court's latest edict allowing city or county government to seize your property for whatever reason they decide to.

In my non-expert humble opinion, a police state government is much more likely than a "collapse" followed by anarchy. Government, the media, any and all schools, colleges, universities, the vast majority of "experts" in all fields and the majority of churches have for decades been programming the American people to blindly SUBMIT, CONFORM and OBEY. Of course, those who won't submit, conform and obey will have to be... "Dealt with."

Unless the American people wake up, pull their heads out of their asses and stop living like spoiled children who value nothing more than instant gratification, money, possessions and power, America will some day go the way of the British empire.

The biggest threat to our freedom, our way of life and our survival as a nation is not Communist China, heroin, cocaine, Al Queda, the Taliban or the United Nations. The biggest threat comes from OUR OWN "LEADERS" in Washington, plain and simple.

Our own "Leaders" hollow out our military, leave our nation vulnerable to attack, gut our Bill of Rights, trample our Constitution. They pass laws giving themselves the power to snatch any one of us off the street, imprision us with no probable cause, deny us due process, refuse us out RIGHT to legal counsel, isolate us from our families, hold us without pressing charges, deny us our RIGHT to a trial by a jury of our peers and imprision us indefinitely.
The machinery for a police state totaltarian dictatorship is in place.

With a weakened military, a gutless and cowardly majority of the population and "leadership" that is by and large corrupt and unprincipled, America is well on the road to becoming a "soft" (or not so soft) police state with "leaders" who will not serve the people but will submit our nation and people to the rule of "global interests."

When that is accomplished, America will become a second rate nation with a people who enjoy "FREEDOM IN CHAINS," as James Bovard called it.

As someone once said:
WE ARE FREE BECAUSE THE FOUNDERS FOUGHT FOR FREEDOM.
WE WILL REMAIN FREE AS LONG AS WE ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR FREEDOM. WE WILL LOSE OUR FREEDOM WHEN WE ARE NO LONGER WILLING TO FIGHT FOR IT.

In 2005, we are faced with the same choices The Founders were faced with in 1775. We can still make the decision to be a free nation; it is not an easy choice, but if we don't decide, others will make the decision for us.
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Old June 27, 2005, 01:09 PM   #38
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And I thought Hitler was dead........
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Old June 27, 2005, 05:49 PM   #39
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Just when you think it can't get any sillier ... one of the TFL "mouth breathers" logs in from his Idaho Cabin.

To progunner ... I hate to dissolve you're little "chicken little" world with some facts, but here they are ...
  1. Some people, including good americans, disagree with you on how the US should deal with the rest of the world. And you AIN'T necessarily the smart or correct one.
  2. People don't get into politics unless they're committed to being in positions of power, but even given that there are MANY idealists in our government. I've met and worked with some. Some of them may not agree with you or me ... but they are damn fine people and I'm glad there are so many available.
  3. Our democratic/market based government is still alive and well. Our founding father would be damned proud of all we've accomplished -- the most powerful econmony in the world, leaders of the free world, etc.
  4. The bitch about a democracy is that the will of the majority will take charge, even if it's a will you don't like. But don't mistake people putting trust in the governemnt for their continued safety and prosperity, intelligent or not, for being willing slaves. The soft americans you refer to are the newest generation of the same culture that has kicked ASS in 2 world wars and many smaller ones. That strength is still there. Try pushing people too far and see what it gets you.

Go ahead, ProGunner ... now that I have set you straight, we all await your apology for posting such hysterical BS in the first place.

And PS:

Active US participation in (and by that I don't mean soveriegnity to) the UN is the best hope we have to eliminate the need for wars in the future. THANK GOD for the US AND the UN!!!!

Last edited by Garand Illusion; June 28, 2005 at 12:23 AM.
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Old June 27, 2005, 07:08 PM   #40
drinks
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Government

GI;
Have you tried spul chak?
The program you outline is democratic fascism, which is the way we are going.
W and the boyz are dedicated fascists, look up the definition, Kerry, Kennedy and the gurlz and boyz are democratic dictatorship, one worlders.
The Constitution, which almost all pols and jurists are doing their best to make invisible and silent, is supposed to make us a representative republic, not a democracy.
A democracy is a dictatorship of the majority, exactly what is going on in GB and the Islamic states.
I really do not want anything to do with a democracy.
The UN is a major drain on our economy and a place where we are daily taken advantage of and humiliated.
Move it to Mali or Burma, a place where It would be appreciated, how about Zimbabwe?
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Old June 28, 2005, 09:04 AM   #41
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Some of the post in this thread are getting a bit heated.

Stop and think about it for a second. If we good people, here on TFL, can't be civil to each other because of different religious or political views, how does that bode for the country as a whole.

If just discussing anarchy can divide this somewhat homogeneous group on the internet, what will we do during a real crisis?

Are we anarchy prone?


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Old June 28, 2005, 10:26 AM   #42
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Anarchy:
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government


By definition, NO
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Old June 28, 2005, 11:01 AM   #43
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In all honesty (and I hope that I am wrong) I give us 20-30 years before our fall. And I am being generous as I feel we are in our decline.
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Old June 28, 2005, 12:04 PM   #44
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Never been invaded ?? Where are some of you coming from?? We have been invaded for the last twenty years. There are now over 13 million invaders in this country from down south. Armed take over by another country ?? No, to many guns in private hands......but, take over of the country from within by judicial tampering......AKA SCOTUS.
Slowly the rights of free persons evaporate with each of the Supreme court accomplishments....Did anyone ever imagine that they would ever see the day that a mans private land was no longer his ?? That it could be taken to build a new shopping center, high rise or parking lot for the good of the many.?? From within the apple rots.....
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Old June 28, 2005, 12:13 PM   #45
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Heres a couple scenarios where our a country could easily go crazy:

A terrorist gets ahold of weaponized small pox and infects himself and comes into the country. Even if they caught him(not knowing he was sick), the agents would then be infected. It would take mere weeks for it to spread acrossed the country.

Another could be two attacks involving nuclear weapons, brought in by terrorists and set off in two major metropolitan areas within 30 minutes of each other. And perhaps more conventional strikes acrossed the country by sleepers once they find out about the major attacks.

Imagine the panic. No government could control a fear driven frenzy.
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Old June 28, 2005, 12:56 PM   #46
mrcalm7
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What times are you referring to?

Anarchy prone? Give me a break.

Somebody talked about China invading, yeah that'll happen. More like they'll just buy us out.

Here's a more likely scenario. Your government and business leaders promote outsourcing your job to some country where they use their hands for toilet paper. Got it. :barf:
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Old June 28, 2005, 02:16 PM   #47
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Re

Foreign invasion - especially from China, doesn't look to likely. It took until 1944 to invade occupied France - occupied by an army fighting in Italy and the Eastern front, an invasion launched from around fifty miles away (I'm thinking 20 or 30), with complete air superiority. If we fight China with anything but WMDs, it'll be on the islands - Taiwan, maybe the Spratly's - and navy battles. China's population is about 4 times our own, but it would take a several thousand mile journey across the world's largest ocean to get to the 48 states. There is the Bering Sea route - but taking Alaska's one thing - knocking out the contiguous 48's another.
In the remote case in which there was an invasion on US soil, you can be pretty sure the gov't will want to ban any defense tactics by the populace - Geneva convention, int'l opinion, etc.
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Old June 28, 2005, 03:08 PM   #48
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well your country might not be anarchy prone for many years to come. id give south africa 20 years at most, if it doesnt implode everything will be fine.
cant really say. but if SHTF id grab a shotty, a long gun and my 45 and head for the wild.
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Old June 28, 2005, 03:23 PM   #49
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Africa as a hole is pretty crazy isn't it?
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Old June 28, 2005, 03:40 PM   #50
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Anarchy Prone?

No, I don't think so. I do feel a breath of Civil war between the Red and the Blue states and their peoples. We are so far apart and have such differing ideas of true freedom. The far left and the far right are beyond understanding .American regular problems are clear cut.

Radicalism is the problem, not minorities. Lack of Godliness is the problem, not shouting Evangelists. Morality is not the problem, immorality is the problem.

The battle is between "Do it if it feels good" and "My rights only extend to the point of decency".

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